Jason Campbell Ranked in the top 10 statistically in nearly

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Post by markshark84 »

El Mexican wrote:Stop playing around with stats and just get real.

JC has not played that great these three games. Nothing new with that.


As Mark Twain once said, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics. I think it is obvious the quotes appiles here.
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Post by markshark84 »

cleg wrote:Jason is the best QB on the team and that is pretty much all that matters. He will be playing somewhere else next year while this train wreck rebuilds (again) with a new QB and coach. I hope he goes someplace and is successful because I worry that The Danny and his puppet may have ruined him.


Best QB -- three weeks ago, I would have agreed with you. Now -- not so much. I am beginning to wonder how Collins would do in there; mainly because I would like to see what happens with someone new tossing passes --- and he did lead us to the playoffs.

Playing somewhere else -- he will be playing somewhere else as a backup. He will be an afterthought in the NFL after this season. After this season, being successful for JC would be having a career like Todd Collins.
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Post by MEZZSKIN »

The whole premise of this thread is preposterous.
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Post by cleg »

markshark84 wrote:
cleg wrote:Jason is the best QB on the team and that is pretty much all that matters. He will be playing somewhere else next year while this train wreck rebuilds (again) with a new QB and coach. I hope he goes someplace and is successful because I worry that The Danny and his puppet may have ruined him.


Best QB -- three weeks ago, I would have agreed with you. Now -- not so much. I am beginning to wonder how Collins would do in there; mainly because I would like to see what happens with someone new tossing passes --- and he did lead us to the playoffs.

Playing somewhere else -- he will be playing somewhere else as a backup. He will be an afterthought in the NFL after this season. After this season, being successful for JC would be having a career like Todd Collins.


Please just stop with the Collins nonsense. Really. It is absurd. As to Jason another team will give him a chance to start without a doubt. Remember Patrick Ramsey got a chance in Denver or some other place before he became a Todd Collins.
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Post by CanesSkins26 »

Please just stop with the Collins nonsense. Really. It is absurd.


Is it? JC has led this team to ONLY ONE TD AGAINST A NON-PREVENT DEFENSE. How much worse could Collins possibly be?
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Post by cleg »

CanesSkins26 wrote:
Please just stop with the Collins nonsense. Really. It is absurd.


Is it? JC has led this team to ONLY ONE TD AGAINST A NON-PREVENT DEFENSE. How much worse could Collins possibly be?


A lot. He is a career back up and almost 40 years old.
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Post by RedskinsFreak »

I agree that JC's numbers are inflated because of the 4th-quarter charity of two prevent defenses. They don't even come close to reflecting the quality of QB that he is.

So, I tried to come up with something that negates the "charity" factor. So, I compiled his "first 3 quarters" numbers. Not perfect, I admit, but it should show something.

Here they are:

44-for-67, 545 yards, 1 TD, 2 INT = 83.2 rating

When you go first-half only, it's:

31-for-48, 362 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT = 78.6 rating

In the interest of total disclosure, his 4Q numbers are:

25-for-35, 248 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT = 110.2 rating
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Post by CanesSkins26 »

cleg wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:
Please just stop with the Collins nonsense. Really. It is absurd.


Is it? JC has led this team to ONLY ONE TD AGAINST A NON-PREVENT DEFENSE. How much worse could Collins possibly be?


A lot. He is a career back up and almost 40 years old.


So you think that we would have scored zero td's instead of one with him as the qb?

Also, how many times has TC led us to the playoffs? How many times has JC?
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Post by thedcnative »

The thing about Campbell is that...you wanna say he's bottomed out and that it's time for him to go; but he has those moments of brilliance and you think that it's Zorn calling the plays. I don't know, maybe he is a problem; but I just feel like...I don't know, there's something that's holding him back. Maybe it's the coach, maybe it's self confidence (Jim Plunkett syndrome).
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Post by cleg »

CanesSkins26 wrote:
cleg wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:
Please just stop with the Collins nonsense. Really. It is absurd.


Is it? JC has led this team to ONLY ONE TD AGAINST A NON-PREVENT DEFENSE. How much worse could Collins possibly be?


A lot. He is a career back up and almost 40 years old.


So you think that we would have scored zero td's instead of one with him as the qb?

Also, how many times has TC led us to the playoffs? How many times has JC?


I don't know, but I don't think we would be any better off, that's for sure.
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Post by RedskinsFreak »

Well, I thought I'd give it a shot and figure out JC's non-prevent numbers. For the purpose of these calculations, I defined "prevent time" as:

1) After the Giants ran that time-eating drive and kicked the FG to take a 23-10 lead

and

2) After the Lions scored their early-4Q TD to take a 19-7 lead.

In those two "prevent" time periods, JC went:

17-for-21, 176 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT = 133.3 rating

Which leaves this as his non-prevent performance:

52-for-81, 617 yards, 1 TD, 2 INT = 81.1 rating

Completely average. No other way to put it.
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Post by skinsfan#33 »

frankcal20 wrote:I don't think anyone here is saying that he is playing GREAT but I think that some of us feel that he is playing well enough for us to win. The overall team is not - and he's a part of that team. I wouldn't mind seeing him get fired up at the lineman but we may not know the whole story like the guys really injured but better than our backups. Who knows.


Frank,
He is playing well enough for us to win if we had a D that could hold everyone to 7 points or if we had a running game that was the leagues best. But WE DON'T!

The D may improve, but not a shut down D, and frankly (no pun intended) they are pert of our offesive problems. They can't get off the field and get the ball back to the O. This Offense really hasn't had many chances because the D just can't force a punt.

Our running may improve slightly, but not anytime soon.

JC is not a good enough QB for this team to win with. Swap places with him and Pewton and the Skins are 3-0. Same with Breeze, or Rivers, or Rothisburger, or Carson Palmer, or Flaco, or Ryan, or Brady, or little Manning, or Romo, or maybe even Culter and Sanchez.

Heck he got out played by a Rookie QB in his third start (don't give me that ridiculous statement that JC's stats were better then Staffords - because they lie - Stafford was the best QB on the field!!!)

No JC is not the only problem on this team but he is the only guy we could change and get instant results. Bench him and play Collins and I guarantee we win Sunday! With JC in there I'm not too sure.

Mark Mitchell should be above D Thomas on the depth chart too, but with JC in there it wouldn't make a difference.
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Post by RayNAustin »

RedskinsFreak wrote:Well, I thought I'd give it a shot and figure out JC's non-prevent numbers. For the purpose of these calculations, I defined "prevent time" as:

1) After the Giants ran that time-eating drive and kicked the FG to take a 23-10 lead

and

2) After the Lions scored their early-4Q TD to take a 19-7 lead.

In those two "prevent" time periods, JC went:

17-for-21, 176 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT = 133.3 rating

Which leaves this as his non-prevent performance:

52-for-81, 617 yards, 1 TD, 2 INT = 81.1 rating

Completely average. No other way to put it.


Yes .. and I would add that the QB rating system has some major flaws. Points don't hold enough weight, while yards and completion percentage hold too much weight, especially when short passing games will invariably produce artificially high numbers.

But the numbers posted do support the claim that there is a lot of statistical padding occurring against prevent defenses which makes Campbell's number look much better than they actually are.

But then again, all you really have to do is watch the games, and abandon the rose colored glasses and stop searching for excuses and scapegoats.

Campbell has the physical ability, no doubt. And he puts together some pretty good streaks here and there ... enough to keep hope alive that he'll become more consistent. Unfortunately, many simply misdiagnose his problems as unfamiliarity or lack of experience in the offense being run. That's really not the case, because if it was, the actually pattern in Campbell's play would be reversed.

Example ... in 2006, he threw for 10 TD's in 7 games. His 2-5 record doesn't reflect the quality of his play in those first 7 games. The defense sucked in 2006 (the only year we can honestly say the defense didn't hold up their end). So, going into 2007, there was legitimate optimism that Campbell ... as he became more familiar and experienced in the offense, would continue improving. But he did not. He digressed in the most important area ... productivity ... TDs ! Yes his comp % went up by 7%, and his yards per game went up by 20 or so yards, but his turnovers exploded, both fumbles and int's. He finished 12 1/2 games with 12 TDs and 19 T.O.'s, and lost his last 4 games before being injured. So to say he actually improved from 2006 to 2007 is simply statistical game playing and not reality. In no way shape or form did we see Campbell improve in 2007.

In 2008, Campbell digressed further. His comp % went up 2%, but yards per game went down, and his TDs per game went down (2007 12 TD's in 12.5 games to 13 TDs in 16 games).

So, the bottom line ... which is getting the ball in the end zone, Campbell steadily digressed from 2006-2008.

This year, so far, his numbers have improved across the board. But much of it has come from playing two pretty lousy teams, and racking up a lot of unproductive yards late in games. Could you say he's better this year than last? Maybe. But it's way too early to say that is a fact, and what we've seen so far is not nearly enough to say he's a legit starting QB that can produce at a high level. And, if he follows his own well established trend, as the competition increases over the course of the next few weeks, his numbers are very likely to decline below 2008 levels.

That's because his problems are not related to familiarity with "the system". His problems are much more fundamental .. he is slow recognizing coverages and running through progressions. Because of that, he holds the ball too long, and he is late getting balls to his receivers. His accuracy on deeper patterns has not improved even when not pressured (also not system related), and misses too many scoring opportunities.

His red zone play suffers because of the aforementioned difficulties because the field is shorter and play speeds up ... defenses have less ground to cover and late throws are more often defended successfully.

Given Campbell's experience level, he should have made much greater strides by now, but suffers from the same inabilities that one comes to expect from an inexperienced player.

The reason I think he actually digresses as the season progresses is that defenses game plan and continue to disguise their coverages .. so just as Jason becomes more comfortable, new looks are presented to him that he is unable to process quickly enough and successfully defeat. In other words, the opposition adjusts to Campbell much better than Campbell is capable of adjusting to them.
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Post by CanesSkins26 »

RedskinsFreak wrote:Well, I thought I'd give it a shot and figure out JC's non-prevent numbers. For the purpose of these calculations, I defined "prevent time" as:

1) After the Giants ran that time-eating drive and kicked the FG to take a 23-10 lead

and

2) After the Lions scored their early-4Q TD to take a 19-7 lead.

In those two "prevent" time periods, JC went:

17-for-21, 176 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT = 133.3 rating

Which leaves this as his non-prevent performance:

52-for-81, 617 yards, 1 TD, 2 INT = 81.1 rating

Completely average. No other way to put it.


Those stats paint a very telling picture.
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Post by KazooSkinsFan »

cleg wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:
Please just stop with the Collins nonsense. Really. It is absurd.


Is it? JC has led this team to ONLY ONE TD AGAINST A NON-PREVENT DEFENSE. How much worse could Collins possibly be?


A lot. He is a career back up and almost 40 years old.

Agreed. Also, JC has moved the ball and the hardest part of the field is the red zone. Analyzing what TC would have done so far is irrelevant, it's a question of what they will do. Which is more likely? A QB who's moving the ball with more practice, experience and better play calling or, to your point, a late 30s career backup? We are 1-2, we are not dead and the answer to that question is easy.
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Post by Bob 0119 »

CanesSkins26 wrote:
frankcal20 wrote:I think if people would quit taking the whole teams problems out on QB and coach, this team could focus and get better. Most QB's don't come into the league and have instant success even though there have been a few recently. They all went to teams that were only missing one key element - and that's the QB.

Our team needs a lot right now. We need an O-line. We need better game play calling and management and we need better overall focus by all players who are on the field.


You still haven't explained why JC, if he is doing as well as you say, is being criticized by Harrison, Boomer, and Sonny and Sam...


I listen to Sonny and Sam every game.

They always seem more critical of the play call, than the QB.

As for Boomer and Harrison; I couldn't tell you, I don't watch CBS very often.
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Post by markshark84 »

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
cleg wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:
Please just stop with the Collins nonsense. Really. It is absurd.


Is it? JC has led this team to ONLY ONE TD AGAINST A NON-PREVENT DEFENSE. How much worse could Collins possibly be?


A lot. He is a career back up and almost 40 years old.

Agreed. Also, JC has moved the ball and the hardest part of the field is the red zone. Analyzing what TC would have done so far is irrelevant, it's a question of what they will do. Which is more likely? A QB who's moving the ball with more practice, experience and better play calling or, to your point, a late 30s career backup? We are 1-2, we are not dead and the answer to that question is easy.


This is a crazy post. JC has, in no way shape or form, moved the ball into the endzone. I couldn't care less that he moves the ball when (1) we are on our side of the field, or (2) when the opposing defense is playing in the prevent. Games are won and lost in the redzone. It is obvious that he has not moved the ball when the game is on the line.

Additionally, JC is NOT, in no way shape of form, moving the ball with more experience, practice, and better play calling. This is the EXACT SAME JC that we saw in 2006, 2007, and 2008. The only statistical improvement we have seen from JC is his QB rating --- which is a dumb stat as is, and is mainly due to the WCO he is currently playing in. WCO's are notorious for improving QB rating on its face. You can make an arguement that he has improved this year (only in terms of yards thrown), but then again, you can also say that he has played against 2 or the worst defenses in the NFL over the 3 game season, JC has more pass attempts on average, AND most of those yards have come against prevent defenses. Therefore, the stats are scheud.

Finally, Collins may be a "in his 30s" backup, but he was the last QB to take us to the playoffs. Is he the future of this team -- NO. BUT, neither is JC. He will be gone after this year, so why not give another guy a chance to step up at this point. The entire "JC gives us the best chance to win" arguement (which I used to agree with), has become stale. WE JUST LOST TO THE 0-19 LIONS. HOW DOES JC GIVE US THE BEST CHANCE TO WIN. That statement was thrown out the window last sunday. Then again, we may want to keep JC in so that we have a better chance of getting McCoy or Tebow in the draft. I would love to see either one of those guys in a Skins uniform.

I also think it is telling that in the 5 years JC has been a QB here, we have gone to the playoffs 2 times. And in both those cases, JC has not been the starting QB. All other times, or the 3 other seasons we failed to make the playoffs, JC has been the starting QB. Coincidence?
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Post by KazooSkinsFan »

markshark84 wrote:JC has, in no way shape or form, moved the ball into the endzone. I couldn't care less that he moves the ball when (1) we are on our side of the field

He hasn't just moved it "on our side of the field," he has moved it into the red zone. And you can care or not, but the end zone is the final skill. Dude, I started a thread before the season arguing that this is JC's last here, I'm not in love with him as a quarterback, but who we start on Sunday isn't a confidence vote on JC, it's a question of JC versus TC. I would rather have a 25% chance of doing something big then a 100% chance of being mediocre. JC's a long shot to be good at this point, but TC is a certainty of mediocrity.
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Post by CanesSkins26 »

TC is a certainty of mediocrity.


So is JC.
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Post by markshark84 »

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
markshark84 wrote:JC has, in no way shape or form, moved the ball into the endzone. I couldn't care less that he moves the ball when (1) we are on our side of the field

He hasn't just moved it "on our side of the field," he has moved it into the red zone. And you can care or not, but the end zone is the final skill. Dude, I started a thread before the season arguing that this is JC's last here, I'm not in love with him as a quarterback, but who we start on Sunday isn't a confidence vote on JC, it's a question of JC versus TC. I would rather have a 25% chance of doing something big then a 100% chance of being mediocre. JC's a long shot to be good at this point, but TC is a certainty of mediocrity.


Ok. You got me. He also moves the ball from the 50 to the 20 on their side. WHO GIVES A CRAP!!!! HE DOESN"T PUT THE BALL IN THE ENDZONE. The 50-20 of their side is like being on our side of the field. That is why I didn't make the distinction --- because it's irrelevent.

And I disagree on your 25% scenario. I actually would reverse that. JC has maintained his complete consistency of mediocrity since he got here. As I said in the prior post, he is the same JC as he was in 2006-2008. I would rather make a change to Collins just to see what he has. If he doesn't put up points in a couple games, go back to JC.

And if mediocrity is that last thing that got us to the playoffs, then I am all for it. AND if Collins getting us to the playoffs is what you call mediocrity, then what do you call a QB that has never taken us to the playoffs?
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Post by RayNAustin »

The answer IS easy, but not the answer you seem to be suggesting.

1) Campbell is not going to receive a big contract extension, and will be gone at the end of the year.

2) If making the playoffs is still a goal, an immediate turnaround on offense is absolutely needed ... NOW .. not later.

3) There is no evidence thus far, and going back for more than a dozen games, that we should expect a huge turn around in Campbell's ability to make big plays, or make the crucial plays necessary to score in the red zone.

Given these circumstances, the upcoming game against Tampa has got to be viewed as close to a must win as one could have this early in the season.

If you had a QB that was simply in a slump, but had a long track record of success, maybe you stick with him and work through it. But when you have your back against the wall, and a QB that has never established a winning record, and has struggled in the most important area (points) who has a 3-8 record over the past 11 games (2 of those wins, 10-3 Philly, and 9-7 rams could have been and should have been losses) .. you are legitimately looking at a 1-10 record.

Now you have a guy on the bench who's only opportunity in 2007 produced a 4-1 record, and hasn't played in over a year ... do you wait until the season is completely lost before you make a change? Do you give Campbell one more week and if we lose to another bad team, you put Collins in on the road against a much better Panthers team in an absolutely win or die situation? Or do you make the change now, and give your backup QB a game at home against a weaker opponent to allow him an opportunity to get settled before going on the road to Carolina?

I say the answer is easy. This team could not possibly be lower than it is now, and it desperately needs an immediate turn of events. Even a win against Tampa .. if it's another ugly one like the Rams is not sufficient to put this season back on track. This team needs a change .. the defense needs a reason to rally itself after a poor performance in Detroit. Another couple of weeks of 'more of the same' from the offense is going to eliminate any possibility of recovering this season.

The time has come. After 11 games and 3-8 record (which should have been 1-10) this hoping and praying has to end, and choices and changes have to be made.

You can't change the o-line. And you can't change the coach. The only reasonable offensive change you can make IS THE QB.

I don't care who your backup QB is, but in the Redskins case, they have a backup that played circles around the starter in 2007. He's very capable of executing the offense (otherwise the team would not have entered the season with only 2 QBs), and nobody can honestly say that Collins is a significant downgrade given past experiences, and the current state of affairs.

Yes ... the decision is an EASY one. You make the change now, not later. There's just no good reasons to wait any longer.
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Post by fleetus »

frankcal20 wrote:Actually, the only people who seem to say he's a problem or he's the problem are Skins fan's. I don't care what Rodney Harrison says, everyone I've heard has said that JC continues to improve and get better and that he is doing things right now for this team to win but other's are not. And that's the problem.


Most of JC and Moss stats were racked up against a prevent defense in Detroit last Sunday. Stats are for people who didn't watch the game.

I've supported JC in the past and last year I asked people on this forum to give the poor guy one full season with Zorn's system before judging him so harshly. Well, he's had one full season and I am not seeing any improvement. He still misses a few too many throws. He still gets flustered and seems indecisive numerous times a game.

Just watch some of the other mediocre QB's in this league, Delhomme, Pennington, Orton. They all make mistakes too, but you see more decisiveness, leadership and savvy from all of those guys compared to JC. JC does not look like the guy who can read defenses and lead a time down the field late in the 4th quarter to win a game. One or two more games and it may be time to try Collins or someone else.
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Post by jeremyroyce »

frankcal20 wrote:I think if people would quit taking the whole teams problems out on QB and coach, this team could focus and get better. Most QB's don't come into the league and have instant success even though there have been a few recently. They all went to teams that were only missing one key element - and that's the QB.

Our team needs a lot right now. We need an O-line. We need better game play calling and management and we need better overall focus by all players who are on the field.


It's been 5 years for Jason Campbell and he has done nothing. How many more years do we need to give him? Zorn was supposed to be this offensive genius and was supposed to get Jason Campbell turned around and get our offense to score points, but yet we can't score any points. How much more time does Zorn need? Let's face it this defense has carried this team for the last few years while the offense gets a free pass with all of the excuses in the world, it's time now for the offense to come to the party or changes will be made rightfully so. This defense should not have to go out there every Sunday and say hey we gotta hold them to 3 points, or one mistake and the game is over.
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Post by jeremyroyce »

frankcal20 wrote:
markshark84 wrote:
Californiaskin wrote:
markshark84 wrote:
Californiaskin wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:
but the stats i see have us 13th in total yards, 10th in passing, ahem 24th in rushing


where do your stats have us ranked with regard to points?

20th in passing
23rd in rushing.....thank goodness for our punter


How does that get us to 29th in the league in scoring/ppg????

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/ ... ntsPerGame

it takes into account many teams tied with the same (low) number of tds


OK, but we are still 29th in scoring.


Our team is 29th not Jason Campbell and everyone seem's to put the total blame on him soley. Where is the blame on the o line? Where is the blame on CP? They do play a part in this offense.


Teams know the way to beating the Redskins is stopping the run. Why? Because Campbell sucks at throwing the ball down the field. He can't stretch the field. So, yes it is on him. Stop making excuses for him
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Post by mastdark81 »

I'm tired of the whole Jason thing. He's our quarterback this year, deal with it. I don't think he's our biggest problem if a problem at all.

The coaching staff does not utilize his talents to the best of his abilities, as they also fail to maximize others. You may not think he is talented, and he may not be but at least let the man do what he does in success more often.

He can't pass for more td's if we are running a million times in the redzone or guys are dropping passes, or not breaking tackles, or the DEFEnse is on the field 70% of the game because they can't convert 3rd downs. When is the last time you've seen a fake handoff rollout? or even a spread 4 wr wide down there?

Not that none of it is his fault or he can't play better, but yall are a lil harsh on the guy. Day 1 we needed to play our team in preseason alot more then we did, we ain't proved nothing as an offense and they are afraid of injury or whatever could happen. Can't do nothing being afraid and thats the mentality of both the offense and the defensive coaching staff. You take on the characteristics of your coach and there is a lack of aggressive imaginative plays called.

We are just starting to attempt to throw the ball deep. Took a year to do that. You see no no-huddle, which could be effective, no designed roll-outs, designed draws, no willing to even attempt the Wildcat or copy other teams successful plays around the league. You throw a halfback pass on 3rd down expecting teams to be in run stop formation, Santana Moss runs back a punt last year in the same Detroit game, however you don't put him back there this game. You make Cooley the sealer instead of putting in an extra lineman in on 4 and 1...and then run Cooley's way lmao. You run a hook & ladder, thinking you were going to run 20 or so yards in for the touchdown, and at that have Malcolm Kelly one of your tall receivers and better blockers out that play.....I mean c'mon. It is clear isn't it?

our coaching staff is terrible...and i say our whole staff because it can't just be Zorn, others have to take accountability as well for letting him call certain things.
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