New Giants post Game Thread

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:37 pm

die cowboys die wrote:going for the [missed] FG on 4th and 1 when we're down by 13 late in the game, and you know they are going to score more.

punting not once but TWICE after that.

these are the inexcusable decisions of someone who is playing to minimize the margin of defeat instead of playing to win. this is what coward coaches do in an attempt to not get fired because they were blown out. joe gibbs has absolutely no excuse.

he GAVE UP ON THE GAME before it was even the 4th quarter. we still probably would have lost, because the team was a pathetic joke today, but you have to try to actually win as a coach.

we need to all get together and throw rotten eggs at him when he returns to VA.

Running on thrid and 16 wasn't all that great even though we picked up 12

thaiphoon · Post by **thaiphoon** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:39 pm

Running on thrid and 16 wasn't all that great even though we picked up 12

You'll remember that at the time I was the one criticizing that play call

dnpmakkah · Post by **dnpmakkah** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:40 pm

Calls for a better younger QB is only going to be tougher if Matt Leinert plays as well has he has today.

funbunchfever · Post by **funbunchfever** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:44 pm

Kenny Wright contnues to look lost out there... and as long as the secondary keeps giving up such huge yards... it's tough on everyone.

Carlos Rogers doesn't look good either. Granted, he tackles well for a corner, but he can't cover and can't catch a cold.

Mursilis · Post by **Mursilis** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:45 pm

dnpmakkah wrote:Calls for a better younger QB is only going to be tougher if Matt Leinert plays as well has he has today.

Forgot he was starting today.

After checking that game, he's 8/9, 89 yds., 2 TDs, 0 INTs!! :shock:

Obviously, Dennis Green doesn't know what he's doing - rookie QBs need to sit their first year; they're never ready to play as rookies.

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:45 pm

We are having coaching conflicts and its not good imo. Saunders said last week that he wanted to go for it on 4th and 1 but they kicked the FG. Today, who made the call?

BossHog wrote:Somebody find Garnell Wilds will they?

We dont keep cheap talent on this team. Is that anger/frustration talking? Yes. But Im sick of seeing good homegrown players pissed away by this team just to overpay for others who are just as good or worse.

BossHog wrote:This secondary hasn't looked this bad in Williams' entire tenure. Obviously losing your #1 guy is going to be a blow, but the drop off in ability has been brutal.

I think its a lack of chemistry and the loss of Springs. Adam is still learning and is playing worse than Clark.

SkinzCanes · Post by **SkinzCanes** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:48 pm

The one thing that has surprised me so far this season is how bad Carlos Rogers is right now. Yes I know Springs isn't in there so he has to do more. But that shouldn't be an excuse for a guy that was a top 10 pick. Antrell Rolle and Pac Man Jones went ahead of him and both are playing much much better IMO. Rogers cant catch and his failures in that area have really hurt us (Seattle, today). On top of that his tackling is atrocious right now. While those are things that he can work on what worries me most about his is his lack of speed and inability to make adjustments. He isn't very fluid with his hips and doesn't have the recovery speed needed to be a top corner. As a result he sits off of defenders and can't cover the shorter routes. Teams can complete a 5 yards pass against him at will (4th and 8 last week against Jax). On that 3rd and 16 completion to Burress that went inside our 10 he looked totally lost. He got beat at first then when the throw hung up in the air he mistimed the jump. Wright and Rumph suck but those guys weren't top 10 picks. Rogers just isn't very good IMO. I really really wish that we still had Smoot.

Mursilis · Post by **Mursilis** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:49 pm

Chris Luva Luva wrote:We are having coaching conflicts and its not good imo. Saunders said last week that he wanted to go for it on 4th and 1 but they kicked the FG. Today, who made the call?

BossHog wrote:Somebody find Garnell Wilds will they?

We dont keep cheap talent on this team. Is that anger/frustration talking? Yes. But Im sick of seeing good homegrown players pissed away by this team just to overpay for others who are just as good or worse.

BossHog wrote:This secondary hasn't looked this bad in Williams' entire tenure. Obviously losing your #1 guy is going to be a blow, but the drop off in ability has been brutal.

I think its a lack of chemistry and the loss of Springs. [bold]Adam[/bold] is still learning and is playing worse than Clark.

After seeing your second point, I knew that name was coming. He's looking like a huge bust so far. Meanwhile, looks like Pierce had a decent game.

thaiphoon · Post by **thaiphoon** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:49 pm

We dont keep cheap talent on this team. Is that anger/frustration talking? Yes. But Im sick of seeing good homegrown players pissed away by this team just to overpay for others who are just as good or worse.

I see that alot in the corporate world. For some reason, bosses tend to think that the solution lies in people or companies who are "outside" the organization. Noone looks at the guy who is steadily improving into a quality asset.

UK Skins Fan · Post by **UK Skins Fan** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:51 pm

The offence stunk two years ago: Joe Gibbs' fault.

The offence stunk for the majority of last year: Joe Gibbs' fault.

Joe Gibbs realises a problem, and a way to improve the team, steps aside to give the offence to Al Saunders - the great offensive mind of the age (slight hyperbole there, perhaps).

Offence stinks during game five of 2006/2007 season, with Al Saunders at the helm. Joe Gibbs' fault? Joe Gibbs a coward?

He gave the offence to Saunders, overcoming professional pride for the good of the team. Joe Gibbs a coward?

On Monday morning, he'll be saying that this loss begins with him. Joe Gibbs a coward?

Bovine faeces is my reply to anybody making that accusation. And I'd be happy to translate that into plain English in Smack. But now, I'm going to bed.

SkinzCanes · Post by **SkinzCanes** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:52 pm

We are having coaching conflicts and its not good imo. Saunders said last week that he wanted to go for it on 4th and 1 but they kicked the FG. Today, who made the call?

I wonder who made the call today. If Gibbs keeps overruling Saunders on these types of calls I wonder how long he's going to want to coach here?

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:55 pm

UK Skins Fan wrote:The offence stunk two years ago: Joe Gibbs' fault.

The offence stunk for the majority of last year: Joe Gibbs' fault.

Joe Gibbs realises a problem, and a way to improve the team, steps aside to give the offence to Al Saunders - the great offensive mind of the age (slight hyperbole there, perhaps).

Offence stinks during game five of 2006/2007 season, with Al Saunders at the helm. Joe Gibbs' fault? Joe Gibbs a coward?

He gave the offence to Saunders, overcoming professional pride for the good of the team. Joe Gibbs a coward?

On Monday morning, he'll be saying that this loss begins with him. Joe Gibbs a coward?

Bovine faeces is my reply to anybody making that accusation. And I'd be happy to translate that into plain English in Smack. But now, I'm going to bed.

I think one issue is that he and Al conflict on the play calling. Its been all over the place.

SkinzCanes · Post by **SkinzCanes** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:56 pm

The offence stunk two years ago: Joe Gibbs' fault.

The offence stunk for the majority of last year: Joe Gibbs' fault.

Joe Gibbs realises a problem, and a way to improve the team, steps aside to give the offence to Al Saunders - the great offensive mind of the age (slight hyperbole there, perhaps).

Offence stinks during game five of 2006/2007 season, with Al Saunders at the helm. Joe Gibbs' fault? Joe Gibbs a coward?

He gave the offence to Saunders, overcoming professional pride for the good of the team. Joe Gibbs a coward?

On Monday morning, he'll be saying that this loss begins with him. Joe Gibbs a coward?

Bovine faeces is my reply to anybody making that accusation. And I'd be happy to translate that into plain English in Smack. But now, I'm going to bed.

Nice post but it ignores the issue. The call on 4th and 1 was cowardly. Like Chris pointed out Gibbs did the same thing last week against Jax. If he is making these calls then you cant say that he has really turned the offense over to Saunders. For example today. Perhaps Saunders called the pass on 3rd and 1 with the expectation that he would run on 4th if the pass failed. Then Gibbs decideds that he wants to kick instead of going for it. That's no way to run an offense.

Champsturf · Post by **Champsturf** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:59 pm

SkinzCanes wrote:
We are having coaching conflicts and its not good imo. Saunders said last week that he wanted to go for it on 4th and 1 but they kicked the FG. Today, who made the call?

I wonder who made the call today. If Gibbs keeps overruling Saunders on these types of calls I wonder how long he's going to want to coach here?

I wouldn't be surprised to see him go after this season. I believe it to be Gibbs' decision to keep starting Mark as well. Basically, our Asst Head Coach, Offense calls plays, but doesn't have gametime decision power. How many times would Saunders have gone for it on fourth and one while in KC? :-k

die cowboys die · Post by **die cowboys die** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 5:00 pm

SkinzCanes wrote:
The offence stunk two years ago: Joe Gibbs' fault.

The offence stunk for the majority of last year: Joe Gibbs' fault.

Joe Gibbs realises a problem, and a way to improve the team, steps aside to give the offence to Al Saunders - the great offensive mind of the age (slight hyperbole there, perhaps).

Offence stinks during game five of 2006/2007 season, with Al Saunders at the helm. Joe Gibbs' fault? Joe Gibbs a coward?

He gave the offence to Saunders, overcoming professional pride for the good of the team. Joe Gibbs a coward?

On Monday morning, he'll be saying that this loss begins with him. Joe Gibbs a coward?

Bovine faeces is my reply to anybody making that accusation. And I'd be happy to translate that into plain English in Smack. But now, I'm going to bed.

Nice post but it ignores the issue. The call on 4th and 1 was cowardly. Like Chris pointed out Gibbs did the same thing last week against Jax. If he is making these calls then you cant say that he has really turned the offense over to Saunders. For example today. Perhaps Saunders called the pass on 3rd and 1 with the expectation that he would run on 4th if the pass failed. Then Gibbs decideds that he wants to kick instead of going for it. That's no way to run an offense.

yeah, the problem was even a good FG still essentially ensured defeat. we would've still been down by 2 to a team that was scoring almost every time they had the ball. there wasn't even a choice, we HAD to go for it.

SkinzCanes · Post by **SkinzCanes** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 5:09 pm

yeah, the problem was even a good FG still essentially ensured defeat. we would've still been down by 2 to a team that was scoring almost every time they had the ball. there wasn't even a choice, we HAD to go for it.

I totally agree with you. Cowardly decision that gave us no chance to win. But I'm more concerned with how these decisions are being made, and by who. In KC Saunders constantly went for it on 4th and short (yes i watch a lot of kc games; one of my friends is a huge fan). By making the decisions on these plays Gibbs is effectively handcuffing Saunders. Al can't look ahead when he's making calls because he doesn't know when Gibbs is going to intervene and make a decision instead of leaving it up to him. If that is the case then having Saunders here is worthless. The guy is a great offensive playcaller so either give him total control or get rid of him. There is some credence to the "too many chefs in the kitchen" cliche. Like I said in my earlier post, what if Saunders called the pass on 3rd and 1 with the expectation of calling a run on 4th?

UK Skins Fan · Post by **UK Skins Fan** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 5:10 pm

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
UK Skins Fan wrote:The offence stunk two years ago: Joe Gibbs' fault.

The offence stunk for the majority of last year: Joe Gibbs' fault.

Joe Gibbs realises a problem, and a way to improve the team, steps aside to give the offence to Al Saunders - the great offensive mind of the age (slight hyperbole there, perhaps).

Offence stinks during game five of 2006/2007 season, with Al Saunders at the helm. Joe Gibbs' fault? Joe Gibbs a coward?

He gave the offence to Saunders, overcoming professional pride for the good of the team. Joe Gibbs a coward?

On Monday morning, he'll be saying that this loss begins with him. Joe Gibbs a coward?

Bovine faeces is my reply to anybody making that accusation. And I'd be happy to translate that into plain English in Smack. But now, I'm going to bed.

I think one issue is that he and Al conflict on the play calling. Its been all over the place.

And if that's because Joe Gibbs hasn't truly given up the offence, then I'd have a problem with it too.

But if we really think that the problem here is a call on fourth and one, instead of the fact that we had a fourth and one situation instead of first and ten, then I don't really know how to help you guys. I think you're fixating your anger on one simplistic target, instead of the issues that actually got us to that point in the first place. Why were we losing so badly at that point in the first place? I'm thinking poor o-line play, I'm thinking poor coverage downfield, I'm thinking poor qb play and a lack of production at wr. I'm certainly not getting hung up on one single call on fourth down.

And, really, I should go to bed now.

funbunchfever · Post by **funbunchfever** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 5:12 pm

SkinzCanes wrote:
The offence stunk two years ago: Joe Gibbs' fault.

The offence stunk for the majority of last year: Joe Gibbs' fault.

Joe Gibbs realises a problem, and a way to improve the team, steps aside to give the offence to Al Saunders - the great offensive mind of the age (slight hyperbole there, perhaps).

Offence stinks during game five of 2006/2007 season, with Al Saunders at the helm. Joe Gibbs' fault? Joe Gibbs a coward?

He gave the offence to Saunders, overcoming professional pride for the good of the team. Joe Gibbs a coward?

On Monday morning, he'll be saying that this loss begins with him. Joe Gibbs a coward?

Bovine faeces is my reply to anybody making that accusation. And I'd be happy to translate that into plain English in Smack. But now, I'm going to bed.

Nice post but it ignores the issue. The call on 4th and 1 was cowardly. Like Chris pointed out Gibbs did the same thing last week against Jax. If he is making these calls then you cant say that he has really turned the offense over to Saunders. For example today. Perhaps Saunders called the pass on 3rd and 1 with the expectation that he would run on 4th if the pass failed. Then Gibbs decideds that he wants to kick instead of going for it. That's no way to run an offense.

I think he was hoping for the defense to stop them, which was a reasonable expectation. As stated earlier in the thread, this is by far the worst the defense has played since Williams came aboard.

Whether or not the skins go for it on 4th and 1 is a moot point if the defense can't stop anyone.

GibbSkins · Post by **GibbSkins** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 5:13 pm

I can understand that GW pull’s the safeties to help cover (springs) but then shouldn’t that mean that the pass coverage would at least be a little better, but if coverage is suffering anyway then why not just let them do what they do best and blitz them....that will help out the corners...I didn’t hear AC’s name even mentioned....

I love this team and I love our coaching staff (the richest and most experienced in the league) and don’t mean to sound like im questioning the greatness of our leaders but come on.... there was no fire out there at all...no sense of urgency...no aggression!!!!!!

No fight!!!!!!!

“Braves on the warpath fight for o’ll DC.”

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 5:13 pm

I wanted to write about the defense, but I see that this thread has gotten a little packed with emotions.

4th and 1, down by 13, 3rd quarter. . .in field goal range. Your offense hasn't been clicking too much but is starting to show signs of potency. And here's a chance to make the score 16-6 with a full quarter of football to play.

Let's gather our senses before becoming too judgemental here.

"Coward" and Gibbs in the same sentence. . .

Gibbs or Saunders called the 3rd and 1 as a playaction. It's exactly the kind of play where you're a genius if it works but murdered by the media and fans if you don't.

The kick gave us a chance to take away something from that drive. Unlucky for us, it doesn't go through.

Of course, if Gibbs / Saunders go for it on 4th and 1, and don't make it (say, the run gets stuffed). . .people murder him anyway. "It was only the 3rd quarter!! Take the points and gather your bearings for the last 15 minutes!"

Gibbs is going to take the full force of criticism for what amounted to the ball not bouncing in our direction; that's the kind of man that he is.

I mean, man. . .guess I can't say that I didn't expect to see something outrageous on THN (we did lose, after all :lol:

). . .but "coward"?

SkinzCanes · Post by **SkinzCanes** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 5:13 pm

And if that's because Joe Gibbs hasn't truly given up the offence, then I'd have a problem with it too.

But if we really think that the problem here is a call on fourth and one, instead of the fact that we had a fourth and one situation instead of first and ten, then I don't really know how to help you guys. I think you're fixating your anger on one simplistic target, instead of the issues that actually got us to that point in the first place. Why were we losing so badly at that point in the first place? I'm thinking poor o-line play, I'm thinking poor coverage downfield, I'm thinking poor qb play and a lack of production at wr. I'm certainly not getting hung up on one single call on fourth down.

Well the thing is that we weren't losing that badly at that point. We were down 16-3. If we convert on 4th and score a td on that drive we are a td away from taking the lead. It puts more pressure on them to make some more plays on offense and maybe gives the defense a spark. Even if we dont end up with a td there it atleast would've given our d 2 or 3 more minutes on the bench to rest up. The decision was cowardly and to me looked like whoever made that call had given up on trying to win the game.

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 5:14 pm

UK Skins Fan wrote:But if we really think that the problem here is a call on fourth and one, instead of the fact that we had a fourth and one situation instead of first and ten, then I don't really know how to help you guys. I think you're fixating your anger on one simplistic target, instead of the issues that actually got us to that point in the first place. Why were we losing so badly at that point in the first place? I'm thinking poor o-line play, I'm thinking poor coverage downfield, I'm thinking poor qb play and a lack of production at wr. I'm certainly not getting hung up on one single call on fourth down.

And, really, I should go to bed now.

Go to bed, UK Skins Fan. This debate isn't going anywhere soon.

Hoss · Post by **Hoss** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 5:15 pm

i think with our play today we had a communal brain fart. you could point fingers to every aspect of our play.

need to put this to bed per uk skins fan.

SkinzCanes · Post by **SkinzCanes** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 5:16 pm

I wanted to write about the defense, but I see that this thread has gotten a little packed with emotions.

4th and 1, down by 13, 3rd quarter. . .in field goal range. Your offense hasn't been clicking too much but is starting to show signs of potency. And here's a chance to make the score 16-6 with a full quarter of football to play.

Let's gather our senses before becoming too judgemental here.

"Coward" and Gibbs in the same sentence. . .

Gibbs or Saunders called the 3rd and 1 as a playaction. It's exactly the kind of play where you're a genius if it works but murdered by the media and fans if you don't.

The kick gave us a chance to take away something from that drive. Unlucky for us, of course, it doesn't go through.

Of course, if Gibbs / Saunders go for it on 4th and 1, and don't make it (say, the run gets stuffed). . .people murder him anyway. "It was only the 3rd quarter!! Take the points and gather your bearings for the last 15 minutes!"

Gibbs is going to take the full force of criticism for what amounted to the ball not bouncing in our direction; that's the kind of man that he is.

I mean, man. . .guess I can't say that I didn't expect to see something outrageous on THN (we did lose, after all Laughing). . .but "coward"?

All well and good. But there is clearly a disconnect between the way Saunders wants to call the plays and the way Gibbs does. As long as that happens the offense will be inconsistant.

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 5:18 pm

SkinzCanes wrote:All well and good. But there is clearly a disconnect between the way Saunders wants to call the plays and the way Gibbs does. As long as that happens the offense will be inconsistant.

There's no way for a fan to know this unless he / she is on the inside. The only discrepancy we've heard is that Portis talked about Gibbs calling a play in one situation.

Assuming that Gibbs and Saunders are in a disagreement, in my opinion, is the assertion that has the burden of proof. I don't think that it's a clear matter, by any means.