I give up on this offense...

Smithian · Post by **Smithian** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 1:27 am

I know you all will be agry at this comment, but even looking through m,y Burgundy-tinted glasses, I really think that is Joe Gibbs didn't have Portis, I'd truely call this offense under an "offensive genius" one of the worst ever... EVER.

Our offense $ucks.

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 1:43 am

That's your opinion not going to get angry about that
Besides I've been watching the same Offense you have and it has been ...offensive

Champsturf · Post by **Champsturf** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 1:46 am

Actually, I think it's the play calling, not the offense. Gibbs is too close to the vest. How many passes did Philly try downfield? And how many did we try? That's why we are so bad. Give the kid a chance to use that awesome gun he's got, DAMNIT!

Brandon777 · Post by **Brandon777** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 1:49 am

I have been critical about Gibbs play calling. I have been wondering why we don't take shots down the field. Now I know why. Thank you Ramsey for blowing another big game.

WylieSkinsFan · Post by **WylieSkinsFan** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 1:52 am

Gibbs seems so old at times. Burning time outs and having delay of game penalties because you don't get the plays in fast enough is horrible. How many hitch passes can you throw for 3 yard gains? Gibbs can't be so conservative because the season is all but over. Unleash the kid and see if he ends up with 57 int's or td's. The announcers were talking about Gibb's offenses don't have big plays, but I seem to remember long bombs to Gary Clark, Ricky Sanders, etc.

madman · Post by **madman** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:14 am

i agree wylie.i remember them too.where are they?i dont know.i honestly dont think he can make them.he has started enough games to know to get rid of the ballwhen there is trouble,not get sacked or throw it up for anybody to catch it that is flat out inexcusable.

SkinsLaVar · Post by **SkinsLaVar** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 6:32 am

The hitch passes are working. Ramsey has to hitch pass enough gradually lengthening them so he gets used to the Gibbs offense. When he's really comfotable with hitch passing, he can use his gun. As you can see, he's not quite used to throwing the ball long YET. Who cares anyway, as long as the hitch passing leads to a win.

Why does this mofo have to ruin it at the end. Gawsh darn. fudge. We had this game.

redskindave · Post by **redskindave** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:23 am

What offense? We have no offense, Why did Ramsey throw that pass?.. He should have just threw it out of bounds, And the penaltys, Unbelievable..

welch · Post by **welch** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:45 am

Ramsey has to see the whole field, and take the receiver who is open. The offense gives him choices. On at least three passes, he seemed to look for only one receiver:

- Cool

ey drop at the end of 1st half...although Cool

ey should have had the ball. Probably the only play in which Cool

ey did not play far over what we should expect of a rookie. Anyway, Portis was all by himself short, just to the left of center, with no Eagles anywhere near.

- Throw-away on a third down in the 4th period, left side, with Coles (I think) wide open

- THE interception.

There were probably others that the TV didn;t show, but that Gibbs and the staff will see on film.

*

By the way, for those who haven't seen Gibbs before, that was white-hot fury on his face after:

- THE interception

- the McCants tackkle when he was supposed to block

- the second Sellars penalty

redskins56 · Post by **redskins56** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 11:58 am

Brandon777 wrote:I have been critical about Gibbs play calling. I have been wondering why we don't take shots down the field. Now I know why. Thank you Ramsey for blowing another big game.

Thank God... for both of us, I don't know where you live. When did Redskins fans become so freaking stupid. For an organization that prides itself on an educated and well-schooled following that comment is about as asanine as it gets. I shouldn't get so mad, since it is just one man's opinion.

He went 29-45 doing everything that YOUR BOY... WHO YOUR ARE AFRIAD TO CALL OUT ONE FREAKING TIME asked him to. He took what the defense gave him, and threw one pick in 45 attempts, the first in his last 67 attempts, on one bad read under pressure. Was it a horrible pass, ABSOLUTELY. But he didn't lose the Redskins the game, and to say "ANOTHER" game is preposterous because he hadn't lossed us any games in the past.

Ramsey can be your scapegoat if you want. I'd rather blame a missed 43 yard FG, (chip shot for Hall), 12 penalties for over 150 yards, a dropped TD in the endzone, a breakdown in the secondary for a 70 yd completion to the 5 yd line, or a 50+ yard pass interference at the 2 as reasons why the Skins didn't win.

If your rebuttling you'd better bring it, cuz you just went after a family memeber who laid in on the line for people like you to blame him for a loss. How about pointing the finger at our "LORD AND SAVIOR" for throwing it with a minute and a half to go in field goal range....

-Geepz

BossHog · Post by **BossHog** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 1:28 pm

All passion aside folks... let's attack posts in the regular forums and save personal attacks for the smack forum please.

I'm not pointing fingers or singling people out but there are a few threads today on the verge of bubbling over. So as a public service to ALL who use this board... speak your mind... but please obey the guidelines when you do.

Thanks.

curveball · Post by **curveball** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 1:30 pm

The problem with your offense is quite simple, it doesn't take advantage of today's game.

It's hard to get an illegal chuck 5 yards down field when your receivers are running four yard patterns. PI is called much more frequently on streaks than it is on 15 yard ins.

The offense your running doesn't put your team into the position to get "breaks". Look at the Eagles last night, they took a shot three times, Pinkston caught one, wussed on one and Owens picked up a PI call. 3 plays 120+ yards of field position and points on the board. The missed pass shows the same as a dropped short ball.

The offense also doesn't take into account the biggest change since Gibbs' last tenure; the abundance of playmakers at the safety position (name 3 safeties from other teams from Gibbs' last year). Not going vertical brings these monsters closer to the LOS and changes a 12 yard run that moves the chains to an 8 yarder that requires another down and a chance for the defense to make a play.

cvillehog · Post by **cvillehog** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 1:35 pm

curveball,
With all due respect, I think you are missing the point. I can appreciate that you may not be very familiar with the Gibbs offensive system since you are a fan of another team and since Gibbs last coached more than a decade ago.

However, what you have seen so far this year has not really been the Gibbs system. When Gibbs has his team together and tutored, you will get a chance to see why Gibbs was the brains behind the Air Coryell offense.

The long and short of it is: it's not the system, it's the execution.

welch · Post by **welch** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 1:56 pm

The offense also doesn't take into account the biggest change since Gibbs' last tenure; the abundance of playmakers at the safety position (name 3 safeties from other teams from Gibbs' last year).

They were called "strong safeties". Without thinking very hard: Ronnie Lott.

For the rest, because I know the Redskins players, consider:

- Richie Pettibon, the first of the bunch

- Ken Houston, now HOF.

- Tony Peters, SB 17

- Alvin Walton, SB 22: wore that neck collar because he was always hitting

- Danny Copeland, SB 26. Don't remember him? Neither do Andre Reed, Don (?) Beebe, and the semi-immortal Thurman Thomas...because Copland hit them so hard during the game.

*

Civille is right: the Gibbs offense is not based on a 4-yard pass. As Ramsey improves, along with the receivers, and along with the coherence of the OL, you will see more.

NC43Hog · Post by **NC43Hog** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:00 pm

Good call Welch - ahhh the memories - and these guy packed a load - too bad most folks are too young to remember.

curveball · Post by **curveball** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:03 pm

I'm very familiar with Gibbs' last tenure, probably moreso than many of the posters here.

I do agree that execution, or lack thereof, is a factor, but you seem to miss my point.

The days of "smurf" receivers running around creating havoc appear to be over. The deep ball to big receivers and their ability to push off and still get the call is the rage in today's NFL.

I understand that no one within your organization realized how poor Brunell's arm was at this point in his career and that played a huge part in your lack of stretching the field, but you have the receivers like Gardner and McCants that could be making the "push off deep ball" (Gardner did it well in the Dallas MNF game) a staple of this offense.

curveball · Post by **curveball** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:33 pm

welch wrote:
The offense also doesn't take into account the biggest change since Gibbs' last tenure; the abundance of playmakers at the safety position (name 3 safeties from other teams from Gibbs' last year).

They were called "strong safeties". Without thinking very hard: Ronnie Lott.

For the rest, because I know the Redskins players, consider:

- Richie Pettibon, the first of the bunch

- Ken Houston, now HOF.

- Tony Peters, SB 17

- Alvin Walton, SB 22: wore that neck collar because he was always hitting

- Danny Copeland, SB 26. Don't remember him? Neither do Andre Reed, Don (?) Beebe, and the semi-immortal Thurman Thomas...because Copland hit them so hard during the game.

*

Civille is right: the Gibbs offense is not based on a 4-yard pass. As Ramsey improves, along with the receivers, and along with the coherence of the OL, you will see more.

Of course everyone would get Ronnie Lott, but who was the second best safety in the league then? Maybe Nolan Cromwell? Gary Fencik? Atwater?

Michael Downs was making pro bowls and he couldn't hit his way out of a wet paper bag.

I see Gibbs running, or at least trying to run, the same offense as he did 15 years ago and several positions on the defense have changed considerably, most notably the safety.

cvillehog · Post by **cvillehog** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:37 pm

curveball,
Your contention is that Gibbs's system doesn't take any or many shots downfield. This is just patently wrong.

Additionally, you seem to think that no one in the league is running any version of the Gibbs offensive system.

You also seem to think that Gibbs has not and will not adjust to changes in defensive schemes, despite having one of the best defensive coaches in the league as Assistant Head Coach - Defense.

I think you are wrong on all counts. However, we will have to just wait and see. Clearly, for whatever reasons, the Redskins aren't getting it done this year.

curveball · Post by **curveball** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 4:27 pm

cvillehog wrote:curveball,
Your contention is that Gibbs's system doesn't take any or many shots downfield. This is just patently wrong.

Additionally, you seem to think that no one in the league is running any version of the Gibbs offensive system.

You also seem to think that Gibbs has not and will not adjust to changes in defensive schemes, despite having one of the best defensive coaches in the league as Assistant Head Coach - Defense.

I think you are wrong on all counts. However, we will have to just wait and see. Clearly, for whatever reasons, the Redskins aren't getting it done this year.

Doesn't it make you at least wonder when the coach with the most recent NFL experience performs a Lazurus act on your defense using current NFL scheeme while the offense is floundering?

cvillehog · Post by **cvillehog** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 4:48 pm

curveball wrote:Doesn't it make you at least wonder when the coach with the most recent NFL experience performs a Lazurus act on your defense using current NFL scheeme while the offense is floundering?

Look, obviously you won't be convinced that Gibbs knows what he is doing until you see the Redskins have success. That will come in time.

However, your question about how the defense can peform so well while the offense strugles is quite easy to explain. The defensive scheme of Gregg Williams is not that far removed from the scheme Marvin Lewis put in two years ago. Whereas the offensive scheme of Joe Gibbs is quite different than that of Steve Spurrier's. Basically, the pieces were all in place for the defense, whereas all the pieces are having to be assembled for the offense.

You act like the Cowboy's coach isn't from the same era as Gibbs.

welch · Post by **welch** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:49 pm

The days of "smurf" receivers running around creating havoc appear to be over. The deep ball to big receivers and their ability to push off and still get the call is the rage in today's NFL.

The Gibbs offense was always built around throwing the deep ball to a very big, strong, fast, hard-nosed receiver named Art Monk. No "smurfs". That was the nickname for Alvin Garrett and Virgil Seay, two little guys who played the SB 17 playoff series because Monk broke a toe in one of the last regular season games.

Yes, Miami ran the two Marks (Clayton and Duper), and Denver had three little guys ("The Three Amigos"), but that was not the Redskins.

I promise that if Joe Gibbs could wave his magic wand over Art Monk and have Monk as a 25-year-old again, he'd do it and sign him in a second.

I think Gibbs has already found another Clint Diddier: big, swift, good hands H-back. Look at Cool

ey.

In addition to Monk, the rest of the league back then had guys like Jerry Rice (a faster Monk), Tim Brown (even wore the same number), and Michael Irvin, who, indeed, made his living pushing off CB's. Just the way that Harold Carmichael did years before.

Curveball, are you saying that the innovation, today's NFL, is to have a pair of big fast WR's? How about a pair of very fast WR's fed by a QB with a quick release better than Dan Marino. Let's say one is 6-3 and weighs 220, and happens to be the fastest player on the team, and, as a bonus, had been rookie-of-the-year and a thousand-yard rusher. The other is 6-2 and weighs 210 or 215.

Sound good?

I just described Sonny Jurgenson, Charley Taylor, and Roy Jefferson, Washington Redskins, 1971 - 1974.

*

On defense, are you saying that there were no strong safeties, or that only Ronnie Lott was famous? Go back to the SB 26 team, and you'll find that both Danny Copeland -- SS -- and Brad Davis -- FS -- hit very hard.

Were the Redskins unique? The Petibon/Gibbs defenses were very good, but the Parcells Giants, the Ryan Eagles, and the Johnson Cowboys all played head-crusher defenses. Those are the teams the Redskins played twice a year, of course. Are you saying that the Eagles DB's didn't hit? Yes, some teams played small, fast, finesse defenses, but most of them were in the AFC...which is why the NFC always won the SB.

So far, you haven't begun to convince me.

Smithian · Post by **Smithian** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 9:59 pm

I just got grumpier...

Caught site of a Peyton Manning highlight reel...

I'm crying.

BossHog · Post by **BossHog** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:11 am

You can always count on Welch for a good Redskins history lesson.

:rock:

JansenFan · Post by **JansenFan** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:41 am

BossHog wrote:You can always count on Welch for a good Redskins history lesson.

Yep, he is easily my favorite poster (no offense BH :lol:

)

Redskin in Canada · Post by **Redskin in Canada** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:47 pm

curveball wrote:The days of "smurf" receivers running around creating havoc appear to be over. The deep ball to big receivers and their ability to push off and still get the call is the rage in today's NFL.

I guess Marvin Harrison should be considered an A1 tank. :shock:

Joe is able to play with BIG and strong RBs and small and fast ones too.

Joe is able to play with BIG and strong WRs and small and fast ones too.

NFL players have grown in every position over the last 15 years. The average weight of the OL in the NFL now is greater than that of our hogs then.

It is the -execution- that counts. If our rceivers had not dropped passes in the past, even if they did not run a -single- yard after that, our record would be very different. When we get there, these threads will become meaningless.