salary cap

air_hog · Post by **air_hog** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 8:11 pm

so let me get this straight. lets say Patrick goes out for the rest of the year and tosses 20 TD passes and we realize we dont need brunell on the roster. if we drop him (brunell) then we still have to pay his salary, which is called dead money, right? then do we have to pay his FULL CONTRACT salary or just one years worth?

i mean Brunells contract is such a monster for a 49 year old, (errrr wait... thats his completion percentage) bench warmer.

BossHog · Post by **BossHog** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 8:17 pm

If he's cut at any point... you have to pay the entire signing bonus on that year's cap... but not the salaries that he would have earned.

FatPat · Post by **FatPat** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 8:23 pm

how much of Brunell's signing bonus was given to him this year...just curious to see if we do cut him much damage it would cause. Also is there a difference to cutting him in June versus March it seems like the June/July cuts always saves the team more money than a march release... :feedback;

cvillehog · Post by **cvillehog** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 8:38 pm

There is a cut-off point where you can take the cap hit in the next year, I think it might align with the free agency dates.

Let's keep in mind that the cap for next year could be significantly higher, since it is based on TV revenues, which are going to go up with the new Fox and CBS contract extensions that were just agreed upon, and the pending ABC/ESPN contracts.

air_hog · Post by **air_hog** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 8:58 pm

so if we cut him, lets say tommorrow, it would go on this years cap. and then lets say we exceed the cap limit... then what happens? do we lose a draft pick?

doroshjt · Post by **doroshjt** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 9:00 pm

What happens if he retires? What are the cap ramifications on that?

CcHhDd · Post by **CcHhDd** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:30 pm

i'm no expert but i think that cutting him in june allows the team to split his cap hit into the upcoming year and the year after that. March you take it all in the upcoming year. If he retires i believe he's completely wiped off the cap, but i'm not sure. And if we cut him we don't lose a pick, instead we screw ourselves over salary cap wise. I don't think brunell will retire though, cause he's got a lot of guaranteed money and i'm not sure he's ready to give up football yet. Cause if he retires, he can't just come back in a year and play for some other team, we'd still hold his rights until his contract is up. Either way he's gonna be a problem for us in the future

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:00 pm

FatPat wrote:how much of Brunell's signing bonus was given to him this year...just curious to see if we do cut him much damage it would cause. Also is there a difference to cutting him in June versus March it seems like the June/July cuts always saves the team more money than a march release...

He got $1,433,000 this year so if week cut hom at the end of the year or before June 1 2005 we take a $7.167 million hit on next years cap.
If we wait until after June 1st then he'd count $1,933,000 for next year and $5,234,000 in dead money for 2006.
If we wait until after next year to let him go the we'd pay him $2.193 million (including bonus money) for 2005
We would still have that $5.234 million to account for, meaning if he's released before June 1 2006 we pay it all then or if we release him after that date then it would be $1.433 million in 2006 and $3.841 mil in 2007

jdmills23 · Post by **jdmills23** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:12 pm

i'm no expert but i think that cutting him in june allows the team to split his cap hit into the upcoming year and the year after that. March you take it all in the upcoming year. If he retires i believe he's completely wiped off the cap, but i'm not sure. And if we cut him we don't lose a pick, instead we screw ourselves over salary cap wise. I don't think brunell will retire though, cause he's got a lot of guaranteed money and i'm not sure he's ready to give up football yet. Cause if he retires, he can't just come back in a year and play for some other team, we'd still hold his rights until his contract is up. Either way he's gonna be a problem for us in the future

Im pretty sure there is still a hit. I hate mentioning his name, but Deion caused us a little cap space even after he retired. Right?

Scottskins · Post by **Scottskins** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:22 pm

I've done extensive cap research, but it's been awhile. Here's my understanding of it. He got an 8 mil bonus on a 7 year contract. It's prorated over the years of the contract. So this year he made $1,142,857. That leaves $6,857,143. If he is cut before June the 6.8 mil counts on next years cap. If he is cut after June, we would count half next season and half in 2006. So it would be $3,428,571 in 2005 and $3,428,571 in 2006.

If he is plays one more season and is then cut before June it would be $5,714,286 in 2006. After June would be $2,857,143 in 2006 and 2007.

Pretty reasonable numbers really. That's why it's not that big of a contract. If he retires at the end of the season, he's taken off our cap list. This is a distinct possibilty IMO either after this season or after next season.

Here's a link to the individual cap ramifications for all the players. See how the contracts are backloaded? What that means is that players will have to renegotiate or be cut.

http://redskins.scout.com/3/salary_cap_chart.html

Oh my Lavar has a big Signing Bonus hit lol

Guess he aint going anywhere anytime soon for you haters out there =P

Pretty good considering the guys we have with over 10 mil in dead money....

cvillehog · Post by **cvillehog** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:29 pm

Scottskins,
That's just the impact of the bonus on the cap, right? Plus you have to add at least some portion of the salary, and roster bonuses, right?

Scottskins · Post by **Scottskins** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:34 pm

There is NO guaranteed money in football. A signing bonus is really the only guaranteed money, and that's because it's all paid up front...

If Mark gets cut or retires, he will not see most of that money, and he knows that just like all players do. There is no way Mark will be here for his 3rd year ;-)

It's backloaded on purpose, because the team has no intention of ever paying it unless the guy turns into a superstar. Even then, the player basically has to restructure, but then gets another signing bonus, which in effect is more guaranteed money lol.

Scottskins · Post by **Scottskins** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:35 pm

yes, it's just the signing bonus. The signing bonus is all that HAS to be counted. Salary is only paid once a player reports to camp. It's not part of the cap unless that player reports. Same thing with roster bonuses.

One other thing. I've been told by a 49ers fan that they are still paying dead money to Rice. Now that's been awhile ago, so if he knows what he's talking about, the NFL MAY have changed the rules so that a team could just pay the normal cap hit per season as if the player was still on the team. I don't think this is true as I've never heard anything about it, but I can check it out. I got a link to the cap rules somewhere. It's pretty dense though so it might take awhile to find out for sure. I'll let you guys know if I find anything...

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:45 pm

Scottskins wrote:I've done extensive cap research, but it's been awhile. Here's my understanding of it. He got an 8 mil bonus on a 7 year contract. It's prorated over the years of the contract. So this year he made $1,142,857. That leaves $6,857,143. If he is cut before June the 6.8 mil counts on next years cap. If he is cut after June, we would count half next season and half in 2006. So it would be $3,428,571 in 2005 and $3,428,571 in 2006.

If he is plays one more season and is then cut before June it would be $5,714,286 in 2006. After June would be $2,857,143 in 2006 and 2007.

Pretty reasonable numbers really. That's why it's not that big of a contract. If he retires at the end of the season, he's taken off our cap list. This is a distinct possibilty IMO either after this season or after next season.

Here's a link to the individual cap ramifications for all the players. See how the contracts are backloaded? What that means is that players will have to renegotiate or be cut.

http://redskins.scout.com/3/salary_cap_chart.html

Oh my Lavar has a big Signing Bonus hit lol

Guess he aint going anywhere anytime soon for you haters out there =P

Pretty good considering the guys we have with over 10 mil in dead money....

My calculations are based on how the money is paid out, not how it acually effects the Cap ..... I stand corrected

SIGNING BONUSES

Signing bonuses and any amounts treated as signing bonuses are prorated equally over the length of the player's contract for purposes of calculating the player's salary cap number. For example, if a $5 million signing bonus is paid on a five-year contract, the signing bonus will count $1 million annually against the team salary for each of the five years even though the player receives the full $5 million in the first year. The amount of the signing bonus is simply divided by the number of contract years. Note, however, if a player is released or retires before the end of the contract period, the general rule is that the remaining portion of the salary cap is accelerated so that the entire remaining portion of the bonus amount is recognized against the team's salary in the year the player's employment terminates.

This link may help
http://www.afl.atfreeweb.com/AFL/NFL%20 ... %20101.htm

My question is was it ALL a signing bonus or was some of it Roster Bonus or Reporting Bonus :?:

Scottskins · Post by **Scottskins** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:52 pm

"Note, however, if a player is released or retires before the end of the contract period, the general rule is that the remaining portion of the salary cap is accelerated so that the entire remaining portion of the bonus amount is recognized against the team's salary in the year the player's employment terminates."

that's odd, I coulda swore a retired player didn't count on the cap at all. Wonder what that "the general rule" part means. Then again, thinking back on Deion, we did have to pay his cap hit after he retired I believe, so I must have that part wrong.

Well, the link I provided shows other charges which would likely be roster bonuses and/or incentive earnings. It doesn't show anything for Brunell, so I doubt he has a roster bonus. Even so, I don't think roster bonuses count against the cap if the player is cut, because it's never paid out. You can't count money on the cap that was never paid to the player.

Of course it would count for the year he played, but that's already on the 2004 salary cap, which we are currently under. It wouldn't matter for future cap hit though.

HitDoctor · Post by **HitDoctor** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:59 pm

Scottskins wrote:I've done extensive cap research, but it's been awhile. Here's my understanding of it. He got an 8 mil bonus on a 7 year contract. It's prorated over the years of the contract. So this year he made $1,142,857. That leaves $6,857,143. If he is cut before June the 6.8 mil counts on next years cap. If he is cut after June, we would count half next season and half in 2006. So it would be $3,428,571 in 2005 and $3,428,571 in 2006.

If he is plays one more season and is then cut before June it would be $5,714,286 in 2006. After June would be $2,857,143 in 2006 and 2007.

Pretty reasonable numbers really. That's why it's not that big of a contract. If he retires at the end of the season, he's taken off our cap list. This is a distinct possibilty IMO either after this season or after next season.

Here's a link to the individual cap ramifications for all the players. See how the contracts are backloaded? What that means is that players will have to renegotiate or be cut.

http://redskins.scout.com/3/salary_cap_chart.html

Oh my Lavar has a big Signing Bonus hit lol

Guess he aint going anywhere anytime soon for you haters out there =P

Pretty good considering the guys we have with over 10 mil in dead money....

So WTF is Lavar complaining about that's notin his contract. That is some pretty hefty signing bonuses!

Scottskins · Post by **Scottskins** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:12 am

got that right HitDoctor. That's a big contract. He needs to drop it, especially seeing how he's getting paid mostly for nothing this season. I mean I love Lavar, but those numbers are huge lol.

Another thing, Lavars Cap hits

LaVar Arrington 5.631 5.636 12.414 6.533 9.133 11.783 11.400 13.000

Has anyone seen this before? I've never ever seen a contract that jumped like that in the 3rd year and then went back down? It always just stays the same, or gets bigger as the years go out. Anyone know what to make of this, or is this an error by the site?

*edit*

Ok, I Think I found the answer. The original contract and the new one must overlap there. So basically that year, we are paying him the last year of his original bonus plus the first year of his new bonus. That may be it anyway. Usually the old and new contract don't overlap though. That's an odd deal there...

---------------------------------
cville, here is a better answer for roster bonus impilications

"So cash incentives work almost like signing bonuses, right?

Answer: The short answer to this question is that incentives are considered signing bonuses.

While we're on the topic, let's talk a bit more about signing bonuses

Also included in the “signing bonus” are guaranteed reporting bonuses and guaranteed workout bonuses. Roster or reporting bonuses earned or paid before preseason training camp are also considered signing bonuses. Guaranteed salary advances or advances that do not have to be repaid are treated as signing bonuses. Money guaranteed or paid for option years, contract extensions, contract modifications, individually negotiated rights of first refusal, and option buyouts are considered signing bonuses. Reporting bonuses are treated as signing bonuses if the contract is signed after the start of training camp. Roster bonuses are also considered signing bonuses if the contract was signed after the last preseason game. Finally, individually negotiated relocation bonuses are treated as a signing bonus.

The non-guaranteed amount of any salary advance, off-season workout bonus, off-season roster bonus, or off-season reporting bonus is included in the team’s salary in the year it was earned. These bonuses cannot be prorated. “Guaranteed” refers to those bonuses that are fully guaranteed–regardless of skill, injury or termination of the contract.

Contracts signed, renegotiated, or extended in the final capped year are governed by a somewhat special set of rules if the signing bonus is to be paid to the player in the final capped season. In this situation, a salary advance that the player is not obligated to repay is considered a signing bonus. Any off-season workout bonus that calls for a player to participate in less than thirty-two days of the team’s program is also considered a signing bonus. Finally, all off-season reporting and roster bonuses are considered signing bonuses.

Whew!"

ArmyHog · Post by **ArmyHog** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:20 am

This may answer some questions. I got it from the Washington Post today.....

Brunell is due to receive a $500,000 roster bonus on April 1, league sources said, and the Redskins would face a steep $7.165 million salary cap hit in 2005 if he retires or the team releases him before then; if Brunell is cut or retires after June 1, Washington would be penalized $1.93 million against the 2005 cap and another $5.7 million against the 2006 cap. Before this season began, many NFL executives believed the Redskins already were headed to a salary cap crisis by 2006.

Here is the whole article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52247-2004Nov15.html

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:25 am

ArmyHog wrote:This may answer some questions. I got it from the Washington Post today.....

Brunell is due to receive a $500,000 roster bonus on April 1, league sources said, and the Redskins would face a steep $7.165 million salary cap hit in 2005 if he retires or the team releases him before then; if Brunell is cut or retires after June 1, Washington would be penalized $1.93 million against the 2005 cap and another $5.7 million against the 2006 cap. Before this season began, many NFL executives believed the Redskins already were headed to a salary cap crisis by 2006.

Here is the whole article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52247-2004Nov15.html

Im by no means cap savvy. But if this is true at all then this means its time to get a GM. We need to get Danny kick the money out to clone O. Newsome!

SirSmizzy · Post by **SirSmizzy** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:42 am

This is why you don't give out $$$ by the bboatload just to get a guy.

When will Snyder learn..at this rate IF he ever wins anything it will have cost him 5x's what he made.

Scottskins · Post by **Scottskins** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:57 am

who cares? He's got the money to spend, why does he necessarily have to make a profit?

having said that, I'm pretty sure he does make a profit ;-)

SirSmizzy · Post by **SirSmizzy** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:59 am

Scottskins wrote:who cares? He's got the money to spend, why does he necessarily have to make a profit?

having said that, I'm pretty sure he does make a profit

You don't care you owner is the laughing stock of the NFL?
You don't care he has spent more $$$ than any other team and yet the skins still field a mediocre team at best?

I care my coach is.

cvillehog · Post by **cvillehog** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:07 am

Every year "they" say the skins will be in cap hell, and it never happens. Perhaps it really will catch up to them one day, but I don't think Snyder became a billionaire by being bad with money. And I don't think the Redskins became the most valuable team in sports by cooking the books.

Scottskins · Post by **Scottskins** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:10 am

lol, of course I don't care. Why would I care what anybody other than a redskin fan thinks? We haven't gotten any respect the entire time I've been a redskins fan, so why would I care about it now?

If you think people are laughing at an owner who will do whatever it takes to win, I think your living in fantasy land. I know the Jets fans I know, certainly weren't laughing when we signed all your guys.

Call us mediocre all you want. Just remember that come next season. Watch a few Redskins games before you call us mediocre. We are far better than mediocre right now, and we just finally benched the worst QB in the NFL.

Why do you hang out here anyway? Are you still sooo pissed about losing your players to us that you just HAVE to hang out here and talk smack as long as you can? I hope your still around to say, hmm, you guys are pretty good. That'll be towards the end of this season and at least for the rest of Gibbs tenure....

SirSmizzy · Post by **SirSmizzy** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:46 am

Scottskins wrote:lol, of course I don't care.... We haven't gotten any respect the entire time I've been a redskins fan

Coincidence?

I know the Jets fans I know, certainly weren't laughing when we signed all your guys

How did those contracts work out for you so far? How mnay games have you improved from those moves? 43 mil for brunell...How much for deion? And Trotter?

Call us mediocre all you want. Just remember that come next season.

Ummm...Are you serious? forget next year,right now you are mediocre.

Why do you hang out here anyway? Are you still sooo pissed about losing your players to us that you just HAVE to hang out here and talk smack as long as you can? I hope your still around to say, hmm, you guys are pretty good.

Im not a troll who is here all the time,i just stopped by today to chit chat. Im just pointing out that you guys are happy about a moral victory :roll: