What weapons?

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Fios
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What weapons?

Post by Fios »

So, not only did not Sadaam not have any weapons of mass destruction, at all, he in fact "destroyed his stocks of chemical and biological weapons and agents in 1991 and 1992 and his nuclear weapons program had decayed to almost nothing."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A12115-2004Oct6.html
If the facts don't convince you, nothing will.
Of course, Vice President Cheney could have predicted this outcome. The quote below is from the 2000 vice-presidential debate:
The thing about Iraq, of course, was at the end of the [1991] war we had pretty well decimated their military. We had put them back in the box, so to speak. We had a strong international coalition raid against them, effective economic sanctions, and an inspection regime was in place under the U.N. and it was able to do a good job of stripping out the capacity to build weapons of mass destruction, the work he had been doing that had not been destroyed during the war in biological and chemical agents, as well as a nuclear program.
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Post by redskincity »

All his weapons are in Syria or Russia.
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Post by Fios »

Assuming you're not kidding, weapons don't flow into Russia, they flow out of it and if you want to know where Syria gets its weapons, ask Pakistan.
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Post by redskincity »

Fios wrote:Assuming you're not kidding, weapons don't flow into Russia, they flow out of it and if you want to know where Syria gets its weapons, ask Pakistan.



Yeah but Russia will do anything for oil, I think. THey will hold things to keep people off of there allies back.

I dont know for sure I am just speculating. All I know its time to bring my family members and friends back home. :cry:
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Post by Fios »

Amen to that, my brother is in Iraq as is my brother-in-law. I've already lost a friend, Jeff Kaylor, to this war.
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Post by TheMagicThree »

Bring the boys back home, as Roger Waters once stated.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines.
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WMD

Post by Redskin Don »

He had them and he used them and he slaughtered thousands with them. No, we haven't found huge caches of WMD YET. Do you honestly think that he was just going to put away his toys and play nice?
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more on WMD

Post by Redskin Don »

Here's one article you may be interested in. Yeah, it confirms that Saddam had no WMD. Liberals always seem to like "nuance", though so check this out and see if you now feel a little more comfortable with having taking out Saddam:

http://news.scotsman.com/opinion.cfm?id=1179862004
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and more...

Post by Redskin Don »

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,123680,00.html

You may not think, based on the content of these articles, that we did the right thing. I disagree.
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Even Kerry admits...

Post by Redskin Don »

http://washingtontimes.com/national/20041006-011859-5099r.htm

it's highly unlikely that France, Germany, and Russia will contribute troops to the Iraq effort. So much for his plan for a "summit" and building a "true coalition".
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Post by Fios »

The first link is to an opinion piece and, as such, doesn't count for much. The report concluded that Sadaam had NO weapons (why you continue to insist that he does is beyond me) and further had no capacity to make those weapons.
I am actually somewhat shocked by your second link. So now John Kerry is at fault for our strained relationships with Germany and France? That argument has no validity whatsoever.
The 9/11 commission concluded that Iraq and al-Qaeada had no links whatsoever. Now, because of a horribly managed post-war effort, al-Qaeda is running around Iraq trying to hire weapons specialists to make them even MORE dangerous. Where in that statement do you see a reason to reelect the president?
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Post by welch »

OK, breaking my rule against taking part in these political discussions. I'll talk, then shut up, and let everyone respond as they want. No more from me.

But this from General Anthony Zinni, USMC, who ran CENTCOM before General Franks. It is part of a speech he gave earlier this year on ten mistakes we made in going to war in Iraq, and in the occupation so far.


I think the first mistake that was made was misjudging the success of containment. I heard the president say, not too long ago, I believe it was with the interview with Tim Russert that ... I'm not sure ... but at some point I heard him say that 'containment did not work.' That's not true.

I was responsible, along with everybody from General Schwarzkopf to his two successors, that were my predecessors, myself, and my successor, General Franks, up until the war, we were responsible for containment. And I would like to explain a little bit about that containment, because I thought we did it pretty well, given the circumstances. And it began with Bush 41 accepting the UN resolution to conduct the war, staying within the framework of the UN resolution, and not after the war, going to Baghdad, breaking the coalition, ending up inheriting a country that I think he clearly saw would be a burden on us, our military, our treasure, and would break relations around the region, and would put him outside what he considered his international legitimacy for doing this - the resolution by which he operated and conducted the war, and the resolution by which we established the sanctions.

Administering those sanctions was done pretty effectively I thought. In the entire U.S. Central Command, in my time there, on any given day we had less troops in the entire region than show up to work at the Pentagon any morning. Think about that. Soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines, carriers, squadrons, battalions. On any given day ... on an average day in CENTCOM, we had about 23,000 troops, soup to nuts. Logistics, fighters ... and we ran that with these 23,000 troops, the whole region. To top it off, those troops were not assigned to CENTCOM. In other words, that structure wasn't created to be part of CENTCOM, like the troops are in the Pacific Command or in the European Command, these were troops that were on rotation. They came from other places, from the United States, from Europe, from the Pacific region. And they rotated through. Ships rotated through, battalions came in and out, squadrons came in and out. So we never created a structure. We did it with borrowed troops, so we could up the rheostat or lower it when we needed to.

It was in my view, what we would call in the military, an 'economy of force theatre' without these assigned forces. We had no American bases out there. We were sharing bases with allies in the region who provided for us. Any given year, those in the region ponied up $300-500 million to support our presence out there. What we called 'assistance in-kind.' They provided the fuel, the food, the water, the things we needed. The Saudis built a $240 million housing complex for our troops. Never once when we decided to take action against Saddam, when he violated the sanctions, or the rules by which the inspectors operated under, never once were we denied permission to use bases, or airspace, or to strike from those places. We built a wonderful coalition, without any formal treaties, without any particular arrangement.

During that time, when we asked allies in that region to join us in other conflicts, like Somalia, they came. Egyptians came. Pakistanis came. The Saudis came. The Kuwaitis came. The Emirates came and provided forces. They joined us in the Balkans. They joined us elsewhere on operations when we needed them. We ran the largest military exercises in the world ... in this part of the world. In Egypt we did 'Bright Star.' We built a magnificent coalition of forces, without ever once signing a piece of paper. And we contained Saddam. We watched his military shrink to less than half its size from the beginning of the Gulf War until the time I left command, not only shrinking in size, but dealing with obsolete equipment, ill-trained troops, dissatisfaction in the ranks, a lot of absenteeism. We didn't see the Iraqis as a formidable force. We saw them as a decaying force.

We couldn't account for all the weapons of mass destruction. The inspectors that were in there had to assume that the weapons of mass destruction that were in his original inventory that we could not account for, might still be there. So that was always a planning factor. But when you look hard at that, these were artillery shells, rocket rounds, that he would have to be hiding somewhere that were getting old. And if he had to bring them out and use them, think about this, he's got to move them to artillery positions, to battery positions, under total dominance of the air by the United States. I sure as hell wouldn't have been ... want to be that battery commander that said tomorrow you're going to get five truckloads of chemical weapons to be stored in your area to shoot. Not under the air power we brought down and the ability to interdict them. And these were tactical capabilities.

Much has been made, which confuses me, about unmanned aerial vehicles. We monitored the L-29 program [Rumsfeld claimed these were drone aircraft, able to fly long distances and spray poison gas. The US Air Force said they were photo-recon aircraft, and, having captured them, we know that's just what they were: welch]... a trainer that he was trying to put tanks on. Never once in my experience did he ever fly it unmanned. He usually crashed it even manned. And in order to even hit Kuwait, he would have to bring it into the no-fly zone and launch it from an air base where we didn't allow aircraft to fly from, and we would have taken it out -- preemptively.

We bombed him almost at will. No one in the region felt threatened by Saddam. No one in the region denied us our ability to conduct sanctions. Many countries joined us in sanctions enforcement, in the no-fly zones, and in the maritime intercept operations where we attempted to intercept his oil and gas smuggling.

So to say containment didn't work, I think is not only wrong from the experiences we had then, but the proof is in the pudding, in what kind of military our troops faced when we went in there. It disintegrated in front of us. It didn't have the capabilities, that were pumped up, that were supposedly possessed by this military. And I think that will be the first mistake that will be recorded in history, the belief that containment as a policy doesn't work. It certainly worked against the Soviet Union, has worked with North Korea and others. It's not a pleasant thing to have to administer, it requires troops full-time, there are moments when there ... there are periods of violence, but containment is a lot cheaper than the alternative, as we're finding out now. So I think that will be mistake number one: discounting the effectiveness of the containment.

A side note on that. The process of containment created an 'alliance,' which I would put in quotation marks, in the region. We located our forces in all six GCC, Gulf Cooperation Council countries. When we deployed, we made sure that we got everybody in the region pregnant when we acted, and deployed, and enforced sanctions. We deliberately put our troops in positions and operating out of bases where everybody had to make a political commitment. That was the rule and everybody understood it. And we built an arrangement out there, a security arrangement, through the enforcement of those sanctions, that I think helped us create stability. I think we made a mistake in not capitalizing on that. I think the Clinton doctrine and policy of engagement was right, but we never really got the resources or authority to do it to its fullest extent. I think there was a reluctant Congress to provide those kinds of resources, but that would have been cheaper by half. The idea to regionalize our problems and allow us to build the forces within a region that can deal with these problems, I think is a much more powerful idea. We could have done that in Africa, we could have done that in the Middle East, in Central Asia, and elsewhere.




For the rest of General Zinni's speech, see

http://www.cdi.org/program/document.cfm ... /index.cfm
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WMD

Post by Redskin Don »

Fios,

You either don't read very closely or very well or both. I admitted that he did NOT, during the way, have WMD. I've said ALL ALONG, however, that he DID have them, he DID use them. The articles spell out that he was working to have the U.N. sanctions lifted, and many experts believe he would then seek to begin, again manufacturing WMD.

The second link points out that John Kerry admits now that the French, Germans, and Russians most likely won't be committing troops to Iraq even if he does win the election.

OK, you do me a favor. Please point out to me what John Kerry will do as President to make things better. I've been following his campaign and he and the "Breck Girl", John Edwards haven't laid out any plans for anything other than raising taxes.

As for containment, I read Tom Clancy's book and I like Anthony Zinni. However, I still don't agree that containment was in our best longterm national security interests.
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Re: WMD

Post by Fios »

Redskin Don wrote:He had them and he used them and he slaughtered thousands with them. No, we haven't found huge caches of WMD YET. Do you honestly think that he was just going to put away his toys and play nice?


My mistake, I suppose you aren't the author of the above statement. My response was based on the "we haven't found huge caches of WMD YET". That is not accurate because there are no cahces, huge or otherwise. The report makes it clear Hussein was years away from having the weapons or even the capacity to make them.
Again, the second link offers an argument in favor of getting rid of George Bush. He has repeatedly wasted opportunities to share this burden, not Kerry.
Kerry will: repeal the $89 billion tax cut for the wealthy, reinvigorate enviromental regulations, allow stem cell research, bring health care costs down, end the incentive to outsource jobs, curtail the Patriot Act and, generally, not be George W. Bush.
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