VP Debates

doroshjt · Post by **doroshjt** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 8:53 pm

Holly Crap this is boring. These two are just citing off stump speaches and while the other is talking they keep scratching there note pads. What the hell are they writing? Thank god the Yankees/Twins are on.

Justice Hog · Post by **Justice Hog** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 9:21 pm

I disagree. This will likely push people over to Bush's side in a heart beat.

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 10:37 pm

A lot of "nuh-uuhs" and "yuh-huhhs"; and they both keep presenting "facts" and "figures" that still magicially contradict the others. Perhaps the most frustrating part is that spin machines are already doing the real work of persuading the masses. . .

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 10:51 pm

H-burton kind of took a beating tonight from Edwards but he didn't mention all the cost-plus contracts we received while the Dems were in power. Also you can't tell me tonight was the first time these two have met

Brandon777 · Post by **Brandon777** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 11:59 pm

I enjoyed the debates. Cheney destroyed Edwards. It wasn't even close. Cheney looked like a professor schooling a student. If I were John Kerry, I would have to second guess my decision on choosing Edwards as a running mate. No one can say that Cheney doesn't have his crap together.

NikiH · Post by **NikiH** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:23 am

I am not going to comment on the political content of the debate but I did hear that the power of this debate was diminished because there was a major baseball game on during it.

And one thing that bugged me was Edward breaking the rule about not using Kerry's name 3 times in the same rebutal. It wouldn't make me change my vote if I were voting for him but it would make me question Kerry's choice about his running mate.

DEHog · Post by **DEHog** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 4:44 am

Edwards got B!tch slapped....All Edwards kept saying is Saddam and 9/11 are not connected.

Justice Hog · Post by **Justice Hog** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 3:28 pm

No disrespect to DEHog or DESkins...but Delawareans must be idiots!

The local newspaper (News Journal) has an online version: "DelawareOnline". On that site, they had a poll of who won the debate. Thus far, the results are:

Edwards: 87%
Cheney: 11.3%
Tied: 1.7%

How people that actually saw that debate can even come close to concluding that Edwards won.....I just have no clue. Cheney kicked his royal buttocks up one side and down the other...and Edwards looked like a little stuttering schoolgirl half the time, always saying, "There is no tie between Saddam and 9-11."

Hey, Edwards: How's the economy in the U.S. going to be under Kerry?

"There is no tie between Saddam and 9-11."

If Kerry is elected, what will he do to diminish the risk of terroristic attacks on the U.S.?

"There is no tie between Saddam and 9-11."

If you are elected V.P. and come to D.C., are you going to be a Redskins fan?

"There is no tie between Saddam and 9-11."

Come on! Let's get real here!!!

Delawareans...I am very dissapointed in you!!

Brandon777 · Post by **Brandon777** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 4:07 pm

Anyone that honestly believes Edwards won that debate is in a deep, deep, really deep state of DENIAL. They're so blindly far-left that they can't see what's in front of them. The thought of Edwards having the slightest possibility of becoming the president, or even vice-president should scare the crap out of any clear thinking American. This guy has NO clue on anything to do with running the strongest country in the world.

joebagadonuts · Post by **joebagadonuts** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 4:22 pm

wow. frequenters of foxnews.com must have changed positions overnight, because when i checked the 'who won' poll this morning on their site, they had it about even.

that's not to say i believe it. it was pretty obvious that cheney was better prepared and more experienced than edwards last night. i was disappointed in kerry's team for not preparing him better. i'm also disappointed in the vice president of the united states for using lies for his 'knockout' blows.

dehog & justice; if all you heard was saddam and 9/11, then you didn't have your ears open, and heard what you wanted to hear. much more was said.

NikiH · Post by **NikiH** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 4:28 pm

I think both parties are guilty of thinking their "own" canidate won. Then again none of us are undecided voters, obviously. ;-)

And they are who is meant to be swayed by these performances.

SkinsBigtime · Post by **SkinsBigtime** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 4:56 pm

For me, it's difficult to see how any debate is actually going to secure another vote for a canidite. Everyone I know is already going to vote for their party and a debate isn't going to change their minds. Now granted, about 3% of the nation is still "undecided," but I'm sure their swaying one way or the other. They also talk about that 3% being a huge decision maker, and to me that's hard to believe. I did like watching the presidential debate, though.

joebagadonuts · Post by **joebagadonuts** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 5:06 pm

if you look at the undecided voters in the 'swing' states, i think they'll play a huge role in deciding who wins. i almost disregard the national polls, because they're useless. if we elected the president based on overall popular vote, al gore would be running for re-election right now.

i agree, niki, that the vice presidential debate will have little influence on how people vote. in a week, it'll be overshadowed by two additional presidential debates and almost forgotten.

Texas Hog · Post by **Texas Hog** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 6:03 pm

joebagadonuts wrote:if you look at the undecided voters in the 'swing' states, i think they'll play a huge role in deciding who wins. i almost disregard the national polls, because they're useless. if we elected the president based on overall popular vote, al gore would be running for re-election right now.

and thank God that didn't happen! :lol:

curveball · Post by **curveball** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 6:12 pm

Every internet poll showed Edwards with a ridiculous margin of victory.

Here's why, Terry Mac and the DNC had an orchestrated effort after the Presidential debate to get their minions to spam every major net poll to give the impression of a Kerry romp. They kept it just close enough to look legit.

The Republicans were out-smarted and in an attempt to "get even", when the Dems tried the same thing with the VP debate, the Republicans spammed for Edwards on top of them, making all polls look illegitimate.

cvillehog · Post by **cvillehog** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 6:41 pm

The only people who are saying either candidate "won" had their minds made up before the debate. Not only will this debate likely have no bearing on this presidential race, but the two candidates were very evenly matched. I'd say it was a push. Maybe a little edge to Edwards for showing his strength against Cheney, who I assumed would simply crush Edwards. Also, Edwards got out of the debate without having to admit that he has ever disagreed with Kerry's policies, whereas it was clear that Cheney does not agree with the president's stance on the gay marriage amendment.

Fios · Post by **Fios** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 7:13 pm

Of all the polls I have seen, only one relied on a representative sample (1,000 people who completed pre- and post-debate surveys) as opposed to Internet polling. That poll, by Democracy Corps (an independent group) found that:

- "Cheney had a slight edge of 40 to 37 percent on who won the debate."

However, the panel also found some wins for Edwards:

o Among independents, Edwards by 37 to 34 percent.
o Among undecided voters (with only 60 cases), Edwards won by 43 to 25 percent.
o Among battleground states, Edwards had 40 to 38 percent advantage.

So, again, the conclusion that either candidate "won" the debate is shaped by your politics, not reality. And the number of people who watched the debate in its entirety is so small as to make this entire argument a moot point.
The link to the results (in a PDF) are below:
http://www.democracycorps.com/reports/analyses/VP_Debate_Release.pdf

Justice Hog · Post by **Justice Hog** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 7:37 pm

jobagadonuts. I certainly heard more than that; however, Edwards simply said that way way too much in my book...which is why I focused on it so much. Once or twice, I can live with that....but if he said it 5 times, he said it 10 times. Too much, in my opinion.

While Edwards did strike some blows, I just think Cheney handled the debate much better and came across as being much more capable of being the #2 guy of the world's greatest country. Also, if the #2 guy ever had to become the #1 guy, I would much rather see Cheney at the helm than Edwards.

Lawyers....can't trust em.

(Hey, wait a minute..........

)

DEHog · Post by **DEHog** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 8:26 pm

Yes Edwards said more...I agree with JH though..he just said it to much... if was as if Cheney would say the Sun came up this morning and we had a high of 70 and then Edwards would say..well the Sun should have never came up..becasue 9/11 and Iraq were never connected???

I'm looking for a reason to vote for Kerry/Edwards I was really undecide for a while...as a memeber of the military and one who see the results of the war in Iraq up close. I have very mixed emotions about it. However it about more than the war, and all Kerry/Edwards keep saying is the war was wrong...too easy. I need more give me some substance!!

Fios · Post by **Fios** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:00 pm

Cheney has repeatedly drawn a connection between Iraq and 9/11 so the topic is fair game. I would be more than happy to cite those multiple connections if anyone would like me to.
DEHog: Aside from the shortsighted planning for the war and its aftermath, the utter disregard this administration has for the advice of military officers and the cuts in veterans benefits, here is another reason for a military man (I'm not one, but my 19-year-old brother is in Iraq with the 501st) to vote against Bush:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2946-2004Oct2.html?sub=AR
Another site worth your time:
http://www.vaiw.org[/url]

Justice Hog · Post by **Justice Hog** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:12 pm

Don't get me wrong folks, I'm not completely in the Bush camp.....but

I just absolutely hate (with all my heart) Edwards.

Enough so that I just can't cast my vote for Kerry. If he had another running mate.....well....that's not an option is it?

curveball · Post by **curveball** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:30 pm

Fios wrote:Of all the polls I have seen, only one relied on a representative sample (1,000 people who completed pre- and post-debate surveys) as opposed to Internet polling. That poll, by Democracy Corps (an independent group) found that:

- "Cheney had a slight edge of 40 to 37 percent on who won the debate."

However, the panel also found some wins for Edwards:

o Among independents, Edwards by 37 to 34 percent.
o Among undecided voters (with only 60 cases), Edwards won by 43 to 25 percent.
o Among battleground states, Edwards had 40 to 38 percent advantage.

So, again, the conclusion that either candidate "won" the debate is shaped by your politics, not reality. And the number of people who watched the debate in its entirety is so small as to make this entire argument a moot point.
The link to the results (in a PDF) are below:
http://www.democracycorps.com/reports/analyses/VP_Debate_Release.pdf

The only problem with this is that another DNC memo pointed out that hardcore Kerry supporters should classify themselves as "undecided" if contacted by polling organiztions pre-debate in an attempt to skew the data.

I'm about as politically centrist as they come, but as someone who initiates and interpets polls for both parties, I'm absolutely appalled by the depths that the current DNC chair has gone to to manipulate the raw data.

Given the hardships that we're currently under with less dependence on land lines and the DNCL making any random calls seem intrusive, I will predict that there will not be anyone within 3 points of the outcome given the DNC's actions.

Fios · Post by **Fios** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 6:22 am

Given that only 60 of the 1,000 respondents classified themselves as independents, that argument does nothing to the credibility of the Democracy Corps poll.
Can you provide a link to that DNC memo?