You got your wish!

DallasCowboysFan · Post by **DallasCowboysFan** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:07 pm

Cowboys safety Roy Williams has been fined $7,500 for a helmet-to-helmet hit on Redskins receiver Laveranues Coles on Monday, the NFL announced Friday.

The hit occurred in the first quarter of Dallas' 21-18 victory.

No penalty was called on the play.

Coles did not make the catch.

http://www.cowboysplus.com/topstorync/stories/100204cpwilliams.2ba3457b.html

Nothing on Gardner! Do you still think it should have been flagged?

NikiH · Post by **NikiH** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:13 pm

I think the refs SUCK! This cannot happen game after game. I mean if it's helmet to helmet call the darn penalty during the game. Is this getting old to anyone else?? I don't care who it is on or who did it, but if it's fineable and they don't call it I think the refs should cover half the fine!

Jake · Post by **Jake** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 12:47 am

Our wish was for the penalty to be called... not for a fine to be made 2 days before the next game.

DEHog · Post by **DEHog** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 5:57 am

These players are so big and so fast it's just impossible for the refs to see it in the game...so the league has hit them were they feel it will hurt the most..the wallet. Williams won't change his game one bit!

chicosbailbond · Post by **chicosbailbond** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 8:46 am

i agree at full speed that is almost impossible to call... roy williams can get away with it... i think most defenses all chip in together to help pay fines like that anyway... it is almost like a badge of courage... the cowboys would rather have fear in the receivers heads than a measley 7,500 fine for williams...

can't say i don't blame him... come on taylor don't reinvent the wheel... take some notes from roy williams... get em....

redskincity · Post by **redskincity** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 8:48 am

I am sure they saw it was helmet to helmet the night of the game and did not call it. Cause they sure nuff showed it on TV over three times. :idea:

Also they have slow motion in the booths.

JPFair · Post by **JPFair** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 10:08 am

I really don't care if the player(s) get fined. I mean $7500.00 is change in their pockets really. All I want is fairness and equality when it comes to penalties. Does anyone know if anything happens to the refs in question when the NFL has to admit that they made a mistake? Do they get, and if you'll parden the horrible pun, penalized?

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 10:33 am

NikiH wrote:I think the refs SUCK! This cannot happen game after game. I mean if it's helmet to helmet call the darn penalty during the game. Is this getting old to anyone else?? I don't care who it is on or who did it, but if it's fineable and they don't call it I think the refs should cover half the fine!

That sound like a good idea. They are just blowing to many calls(no-calls) and it's only been 3 week.

I really don't care if the player(s) get fined. I mean $7500.00 is change in their pockets really. All I want is fairness and equality when it comes to penalties. Does anyone know if anything happens to the refs in question when the NFL has to admit that they made a mistake? Do they get, and if you'll parden the horrible pun, penalized?

The only thing I've ever heard of as far as penalizing the Refs is bad calls and no calls hurt their reveiw when it comes to picking what crews or refs will work the post season... more needs to be done.

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 12:39 pm

1niksder wrote:The only thing I've ever heard of as far as penalizing the Refs is bad calls and no calls hurt their reveiw when it comes to picking what crews or refs will work the post season... more needs to be done.

Hire full time refs. Train them year 'round.

I agree with most everyone else on the board that says we'd rather have the penalties. In fact, I think that a good portion of the fines given out by the NFL today aren't really doing any good. The defensive players will always be looking for that big hit--and most all of them will take it if they can ever get it.

Think about it this way: what if the fines got bad enough that players like Roy Williams, Sean Taylor, or Lavar had to stop trying to make the biggest hit possible? It would change a lot of the ways that the game is played. . .and in my opinion for the worse (see sig. line).

Fios · Post by **Fios** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 5:19 pm

Even more upsetting to me than the delayed fine are the apologies for the two horribly blown, 14-point swing calls. If players are going to be fined for illegal play, the refs should fined for missing calls of a game-changing nature.

tcwest10 · Post by **tcwest10** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 7:05 pm

Wonder how many plays it takes for Williams to make $7,500 ?
I highly doubt there's an impact there.

DEHog · Post by **DEHog** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 8:32 pm

The only way the league can sop this is by making it have a impact in the game...fining someone on Friday for a hit on Sunday doesn't get it done. Why can't the nfl put a headset on a ref on the sideline and have a ref in a TV booth upstairs to review things like this and interference calls.

This may sounds crazy but as the technology improves, I see a day where we have no refs on the field and games are called from the booth!

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 8:45 pm

DEHog wrote:This may sounds crazy but as the technology improves, I see a day where we have no refs on the field and games are called from the booth!

As long as they don't use replay refs like the one we have that might work one day

welch · Post by **welch** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 11:09 pm

Helmet-to-helmet should be a much heavier fine, because it is dangerous. Note young Hixon.

Suspend the player for a game or two, and they will feel it. So will their team.

*

Otherwise, make the old-fashioned crack-back block legal again. It's the equivalent of throwing a fastball at the opposing pitcher's head.

For the young folks, the crack-back was a block in which the WR took a step, turned, and blocked a defensive player at the side or back of the knee. Charlie Taylor was very good at it. Delivered by Taylor -- 6-4, 217 pounds, ex-running back, it could be a career-ending hit.

That's why it was outlawed, and why it belongs out of the game...just like helmet-to-helmet hits.

Primetime42 · Post by **Primetime42** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 11:49 pm

This from the same people who praised a certain LB's hit on a certain QB... :roll:

Go on, you cannot tell me that there is much difference in those hits...yet niether Coles nor Trash is contemplating retirement.

hkHog · Post by **hkHog** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 12:38 am

Primetime42 wrote:This from the same people who praised a certain LB's hit on a certain QB...

Go on, you cannot tell me that there is much difference in those hits...yet niether Coles nor Trash is contemplating retirement.

Helmet to helmet is dangerous and against the rules. I would say the hits that Roy Williams made were good, hard hits, but they were not legal. Fortunately, they did not have have the same repurcussions as Lavar's hit but they were potentially far more dangerous. Lavar's hit was not helmet to helmet. That play was a good, hard hit, but in that case it was legal. I don't think that anyone is ever happy when a hit ends a player's career. This Monday they showed the hit LT made on Theisman. LT was in shock, he didn't mean to end the guy's career. That too was a good, clean hit and one which many 'Skins fans have heard about from Giants' fans for many years. I now realize that it was a good play on LT's part that just had bad consequences. The leaugue wants to minimize these consequences by outlawing hits that are unecassary and meant to cause injury. You can still make a hard tackle and break up a pass without going for another player's head. Helmet to helmet is illegal because it can end a guys career, paralyze them, or even kill them. There is a difference between playing hard and breaking the rules! Any play can have bad cosequences, but with helmet to helmet hits those consequences are both more likely to occur and more severe!

hkHog · Post by **hkHog** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 12:47 am

To add, in the past there were a lot of Safeties who would go out there and try to spear the WR on every play. They had to make it illegal or someone was going to get killed. The Redskins' WR coach's son is in a coma right now from such a hit and was in critical condition. What about Rich Gannon? I think that hard hits are part of the game and celebrated as such, but helmet to helmet is unecessary and as I have stated many times extremely dangerous. Sure Lavar laid into Aikman but if you go for a guys head then you are really trying to hurt him.

TheMagicThree · Post by **TheMagicThree** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 2:29 am

I think refs should be hit very hard (even more so harder than the players) for missing these calls. See how fair games will be..

Primetime42 · Post by **Primetime42** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 11:41 am

hkHog wrote:To add, in the past there were a lot of Safeties who would go out there and try to spear the WR on every play. They had to make it illegal or someone was going to get killed. The Redskins' WR coach's son is in a coma right now from such a hit and was in critical condition. What about Rich Gannon? I think that hard hits are part of the game and celebrated as such, but helmet to helmet is unecessary and as I have stated many times extremely dangerous. Sure Lavar laid into Aikman but if you go for a guys head then you are really trying to hurt him.

And once again, he wasn't going for Coles' or Thrash's heads...watch the replays.

On the Coles hit, you can see him plainly leading with his shoulder...a guy won't fly 5 yards if you hit him with your head.

On the Thrash hit, you can see from all angles, that he was aiming for the chest, but Thrash brought his head down to the point of contact AFTER Williams had lunged...

You forget that it's part of Roy Williams JOB DESCRIPTION to put fear into a receiver...watch the Cardinals/Cowboys game from last year for an example. I bet you WR's shudder when watching film for an upcoming game with Dallas. In my eyes, he did nothing wrong, but when its one of YOUR guys that gets hit, its illegal...I get it :roll:

VRIEL1 · Post by **VRIEL1** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 11:41 am

Keep instant replay.....get rid of instant replay it doesn't matter but there should be a referee upstairs in the booth who is allowed to either reverse a call or page the ref on the field and call a penalty. The refs on the field can not see everything and if the game is to be made fair then there needs to be someone who can fix the wrongs that are being made. I know there is never a perfect system. I know they are trying to leave the calls to the refs on the field, but the thought is if they miss something then we got away with something. I don't want someone upstairs constantly stopping the play but there should be a checks and balance system. That person should be able to call a penalty or retract a penalty. I hate the calls that are not revuable. allow the upstairs ref to decide. You can't say it can't be done because the instantly show replays and even the fans at home can see from different angles for the most part whether there was a good call or bad call. That ref should be able to send a page to the ref on the field to either change a play if needed.

Primetime42 · Post by **Primetime42** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 1:18 pm

VRIEL1 wrote:Keep instant replay.....get rid of instant replay it doesn't matter but there should be a referee upstairs in the booth who is allowed to either reverse a call or page the ref on the field and call a penalty. The refs on the field can not see everything and if the game is to be made fair then there needs to be someone who can fix the wrongs that are being made. I know there is never a perfect system. I know they are trying to leave the calls to the refs on the field, but the thought is if they miss something then we got away with something. I don't want someone upstairs constantly stopping the play but there should be a checks and balance system. That person should be able to call a penalty or retract a penalty. I hate the calls that are not revuable. allow the upstairs ref to decide. You can't say it can't be done because the instantly show replays and even the fans at home can see from different angles for the most part whether there was a good call or bad call. That ref should be able to send a page to the ref on the field to either change a play if needed.

yea, but then you get the traditionalists screaming left and right about how human error is "part of the game" :lol:

hkHog · Post by **hkHog** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 2:12 pm

Primetime42 wrote:
hkHog wrote:To add, in the past there were a lot of Safeties who would go out there and try to spear the WR on every play. They had to make it illegal or someone was going to get killed. The Redskins' WR coach's son is in a coma right now from such a hit and was in critical condition. What about Rich Gannon? I think that hard hits are part of the game and celebrated as such, but helmet to helmet is unecessary and as I have stated many times extremely dangerous. Sure Lavar laid into Aikman but if you go for a guys head then you are really trying to hurt him.
And once again, he wasn't going for Coles' or Thrash's heads...watch the replays.

On the Coles hit, you can see him plainly leading with his shoulder...a guy won't fly 5 yards if you hit him with your head.

On the Thrash hit, you can see from all angles, that he was aiming for the chest, but Thrash brought his head down to the point of contact AFTER Williams had lunged...

You forget that it's part of Roy Williams JOB DESCRIPTION to put fear into a receiver...watch the Cardinals/Cowboys game from last year for an example. I bet you WR's shudder when watching film for an upcoming game with Dallas. In my eyes, he did nothing wrong, but when its one of YOUR guys that gets hit, its illegal...I get it

I never said that Williams was trying to make such a hit. Indeed, I thought they were good plays. I was just trying to say why the league deem such hits illegal and give out fines for them and why Lavar's hit was qualitatively different than Roy's. I agree that Williams probably was not trying to go helmet to helmet but I certainly support the fine because it is meant to stop people from purposely doing this. It has nothing to do with my guy or your guy it has to do with that sort of play being illegal and for good reason, too.

Primetime42 · Post by **Primetime42** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 3:37 pm

hkHog wrote:
Primetime42 wrote:
hkHog wrote:To add, in the past there were a lot of Safeties who would go out there and try to spear the WR on every play. They had to make it illegal or someone was going to get killed. The Redskins' WR coach's son is in a coma right now from such a hit and was in critical condition. What about Rich Gannon? I think that hard hits are part of the game and celebrated as such, but helmet to helmet is unecessary and as I have stated many times extremely dangerous. Sure Lavar laid into Aikman but if you go for a guys head then you are really trying to hurt him.
And once again, he wasn't going for Coles' or Thrash's heads...watch the replays.

On the Coles hit, you can see him plainly leading with his shoulder...a guy won't fly 5 yards if you hit him with your head.

On the Thrash hit, you can see from all angles, that he was aiming for the chest, but Thrash brought his head down to the point of contact AFTER Williams had lunged...

You forget that it's part of Roy Williams JOB DESCRIPTION to put fear into a receiver...watch the Cardinals/Cowboys game from last year for an example. I bet you WR's shudder when watching film for an upcoming game with Dallas. In my eyes, he did nothing wrong, but when its one of YOUR guys that gets hit, its illegal...I get it

I never said that Williams was trying to make such a hit. Indeed, I thought they were good plays. I was just trying to say why the league deem such hits illegal and give out fines for them and why Lavar's hit was qualitatively different than Roy's. I agree that Williams probably was not trying to go helmet to helmet but I certainly support the fine because it is meant to stop people from purposely doing this. It has nothing to do with my guy or your guy it has to do with that sort of play being illegal and for good reason, too.

Even so, I disagree.

Seriously, why not put pink skirts on all the WR's and QB's in the league? It would be a lot easier. The game has been played like that for YEARS and no one complained. If you are afraid, then you shouldn't be out there. Now, I agree that blatant hits should be fined.

An example of this would be when the ball has hit the ground already, and the DB drills the WR, leading with the head (See: Dawkins, Brian) or an instance where a completion is not possible, leaving the WR 'defenseless'. I don't agree with this fine though. Once a WR has made contact with that ball, he's fair game. People seem to forget that when a DB drills someone with his head, he's doing more damage to himself than to the 'victim'. These things happen. To flag and/or fine something that was legal not to long ago is just nonsense to me.

And I would say this if this happened to a Cowboy too. Don't wanna be hit? Go be a cheerleader. This is FOOTBALL.

turdfurguson · Post by **turdfurguson** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 4:23 pm

DallasCowboysFan wrote:Cowboys safety Roy Williams has been fined $7,500 for a helmet-to-helmet hit on Redskins receiver Laveranues Coles on Monday, the NFL announced Friday.

The hit occurred in the first quarter of Dallas' 21-18 victory.

No penalty was called on the play.

Coles did not make the catch.

http://www.cowboysplus.com/topstorync/stories/100204cpwilliams.2ba3457b.html

Nothing on Gardner! Do you still think it should have been flagged?

BTW They fined Roy for this hit...helmet to helmet go figure. I see nothing but a great hit the other on the last play was much closer to helmet to helmet....

http://1fatcat20.tripod.com/Redskins/Re ... *sh$t*.mpeg
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DallasCowboysFan · Post by **DallasCowboysFan** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 8:35 pm

Hey Turd, Helmet to Helmet only counts on a defenseless player, ie Coles! BTW, we just had this same convo on another topic and you even used the video I posted!

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