Bailey/Portis reconsidered

wandkwitham · Post by **wandkwitham** » Fri May 14, 2004 12:37 pm

Its taken me a while for me to get over the Bailey trade. I couldn't imagine why anyone would willingly give up their best player - one who put their heart and soul (one of the few on that defense) into every game. But now I finally see the method to the madness. The biggest problem with the Skins in recent years is that they keep getting clobbered by their division opponents - in the last three years they are 16-14 against out of division opponents, 3-15 against their current division rivals. The NFL East as a division has its weakness at WR. Dallas - Glenn, Meshawn, Bryant; Giants - Toomer, Hilliard, Ponder?; Eagles - Owens, Pinkston, Mitchell. Dallas' WR are horrible (the managers in Tampa are still chuckling over the fact that they got Galloway for Meshawn) the Giants starting two are ok but they will have a rookie throwing them the ball. The only very good receiver in the group is Owens and the other receivers he needs to get help from are below average at best. So what is the point of having Bailey - what is the point of shutting down Terry Glenn? - Springs can do that. So the trade is starting to make sense to me now. I still think we gave up way to much by throwing in the 2nd round pick but anyway.

BringThePain! · Post by **BringThePain!** » Fri May 14, 2004 12:45 pm

The one thing you forgot to mention is that Bailey really didn't want to be here..... So we would have had to get rid of him anyways.... what better to get in return than arguably the best RB in the league? See if you look at it this way.... it doesn't look so bad.....

Texas Hog · Post by **Texas Hog** » Fri May 14, 2004 12:45 pm

welcome wandk

you should also consider the fact that Champ didn't want to return...that had to be the biggest factor in the entire process

JonC56 · Post by **JonC56** » Fri May 14, 2004 12:48 pm

We were going to lose bailey anyway you look at it. We got a guy who will touch the ball 25 to 30 times a game. True, bailey is the best corner in the league, but ill take a young stud of a running back over a corner anyday. Really considering that Bailey was definetly gone and we got portis, I couldnt be happier

JDC · Post by **JDC** » Fri May 14, 2004 1:05 pm

I loved Baily- but he wasn't exactly the key to a successful last five years. He didn't carry us into the playoffs like Portis is about to.

The second round pick does burn a little though.

vpar2 · Post by **vpar2** » Fri May 14, 2004 1:29 pm

I think that bailey is/was a bit overrated. Many people will agree that Fred Smoot played better at times last year, and I know that Champ has the ability, but he isn't extremely consistent. Im not saying that he isn't good, im just saying that he isn't as good as he is made out to be.

Also, I feel that Clinton Portis can do much more for a team that Champ Bailey. You can simply throw away from a good corner like Bailey, but to stop Portis, you have to stack against the run, which leaves LC open :twisted:

.

DisplacedSkinsFan · Post by **DisplacedSkinsFan** » Fri May 14, 2004 1:38 pm

A top notch running back makes the whole team better. Dallas the year before Tony Dorsett v. the year after, Washington the year before Riggins v. the year after. What would a team give for John Riggins in his prime, 2 ones, 3 ones. Champ, good as he is, can only cover one guy. Portis can score everytime he touches the ball as well as keep the defense off the field.

Champ and a 2, too much...let's see how this works out first.

BossHog · Post by **BossHog** » Fri May 14, 2004 1:56 pm

A well thought out, concisely made point... and on a first post!

Welcome to the board.

I stated when the trade happened... the second was definitely too much to give up, but could we really afford to not make the deal?

And very little has been made of the fact that letting Bailey go freed up a bunch of cash to make other acquisitions... IMO, that should be part of the equation as well. Bailey was gonna cost 6.8M on this year's cap... same as what Shawn Springs ($2.368M), Marcus Washington ($1.701M), Cornelius Griffin ($1.918M), Ralph Brown ($660K) and Walt Harris ($230K) cost in 2004. (totals to $6.877M)

ace phoenix · Post by **ace phoenix** » Fri May 14, 2004 2:50 pm

There can be no doubt that bailey is one of the best cornerbacks in the NFL. But if i remember correctly wasn't it bailey getting toasted by toomer twice in a giants victory last season, oh and the season before. I'm not saying he isn't good, but he hasn't been the sutdown guy we all think he has the last few years. Toomer is not the only guy to have his number.
Additionally look at this years draft, with underclassmen coming out there are 4-6 TOP FLIGHT corners coming out a year, who many Portis' are there?? Last time i checked only 3 guys in league history have hd back 2 back 1500+yard seasons to start a career.
Sure we lost a great corner, but we arguably got a HOF running back in return. Clinton is younger, faster, and a difference maker. Time will tell, but i'd like to think Gibbs knew what he was doing and this deal will make the skins a team they haven't been in several years, a run first team. Let's hope he has 1600 and 15 tds and then we will all say champ who...

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Fri May 14, 2004 4:09 pm

I wish we could have retained Bailey. With Spurrier here this organization had no direction. Bailey left because he wants a ring, he's sacrificing his body everyday Sunday for our entertainment and he wants something to show for it. Washington wasn't the place for that last year we all know that. With Gibbs here there is new light, BUT Bailey was already fed up. I believe we offered him enough money it was just that he didnt want to be here and I can't say I blame him. Its hard to give up a skilled position player of his calibur. And for everyone saying he wasn't that good last year I believe are being a bit too critical. Everyone is gonig to get beat sometimes. But look at our pass rush. We didn't have one at all! I tip my hat to our 2ndary for the job they did. I say that because we had A LOT of close games. Between:

I think he AND Smoot did an outstanding job.

ChillWill · Post by **ChillWill** » Fri May 14, 2004 4:26 pm

I have a feeling that when our new coaching staff reviewed the tape on Champ last season they felt that Champs play of dropped off a level. Towards the end of the season teams started coming after Champ. Granted he played hurt most of the season and maybe the damaged wrist really hampered his ability to clamp down on a receiver, he got burned quite a bit last year. If it was someone else and not Champ we would have been calling for a replacement.

All of that aside giving up a high second round pick was quite steep given that there were a few quality defensive linemen available at that pick.

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Fri May 14, 2004 5:01 pm

I have a feeling that when our new coaching staff reviewed the tape on Champ last season they felt that Champs play of dropped off a level. Towards the end of the season teams started coming after Champ. Granted he played hurt most of the season and maybe the damaged wrist really hampered his ability to clamp down on a receiver, he got burned quite a bit last year. If it was someone else and not Champ we would have been calling for a replacement.

I disagree with that. You CANNOT accurately judge a CB's skills when there isn't any pass rush. ANY CB is going to get beat after a while when a QB has 10 seconds to throw the ball. That was our situation last year. The CB doesn't kno the route or where the ball is supposed to be. Like you said the man was injured. If they wanted to see what Champ could do they should watch tape from when we were ranked #5 in the league.

DEHog · Post by **DEHog** » Fri May 14, 2004 5:22 pm

There's a unwritten rule in the NFL you don't let shutdown corners go. I'm on record as saying I didn't and don't like the trade. Yes Champ wanted out, but I believe there was a window of opportunity. RB are a dime a dozen Portis' suscess will be more form the system then his talent.

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Fri May 14, 2004 5:33 pm

There's a unwritten rule in the NFL you don't let shutdown corners go. I'm on record as saying I didn't and don't like the trade. Yes Champ wanted out, but I believe there was a window of opportunity. RB are a dime a dozen Portis' suscess will be more form the system then his talent.

EXACTLY!! Even in Champs so called "bad year" he was better than 90% of the other corners out here. We should have kept him if at all possible, and tried to sign Rudi Johnson, he has a spectacular year with the Bengals. Champ had a lot of things going against his return other than his play so I understand it would have been hard to retain him in any situation but I think we could have tried harder.

Imagine having Bailey, Smoot, AND TAYLOR in our 2ndary. If we had a good pass rush u can almost leave Bailey by himself and maybe smoot too tho i'd give him some safety help. That'd leave Taylor to roam free with Lavar. GOODNESS GOODNESS. That would be sweet. We do have a good corner in springs, he may be able to do the same thing if he can stay healthy.

ChillWill · Post by **ChillWill** » Fri May 14, 2004 5:41 pm

As poor as the pass rush was last year, 10 seconds is a bit of a stretch don't you think. Go back and watch some tape of last year, it was Champs worse year as a Skin. I don't think our safeties provided much support last year either. He's still the best CB in the league covering and forcing the run. My only objection to the trade is the 2nd round pick. Champ wanted out for more reasons than have been stated publicly. Champ will bounce back this season as will Chris Samuels.

People rave over Denvers OL, I believe CP will have his best season running behind this line. Make no mistake CP is a beast. When's the last time we've had a homerun hitter in our backfield like CP? If he stays healthy we'll all applaud this trade by week 2.

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Fri May 14, 2004 6:11 pm

As poor as the pass rush was last year, 10 seconds is a bit of a stretch don't you think.

I don't man..., maybe 10 is a bit much but NOT FAR OFF. Maybe half that or 7 seconds, it was up there no denying that.

Go back and watch some tape of last year, it was Champs worse year as a Skin. I don't think our safeties provided much support last year either.

I agree it was his worst year. But like U said the rush and the safeties weren't up to par. If he was surrounded by more capable players I believe his year would have been drastically different. He had his hand in the cookie jar too but if U have mediocre safeties, NO PASS RUSH, and absent minded coaching then I don't think its fair to say "he didn't play well" he had all of that going against him an still played decently.

My only objection to the trade is the 2nd round pick.

My point exactly. The trade was a definite since Champ didn't want to be here. The deal was uneven, if anything we should have gotten the 2nd pick or an even trade.

Champ wanted out for more reasons than have been stated publicly. Champ will bounce back this season as will Chris Samuels.

Exactly. We couldn't have kept him because he wanted to win. When Champ was here this was not a winning organization and had no clear future again. 5 years 5 different coaches, who would want to waste their career? I wouldn't either.

People rave over Denvers OL, I believe CP will have his best season running behind this line. Make no mistake CP is a beast. When's the last time we've had a homerun hitter in our backfield like CP? If he stays healthy we'll all applaud this trade by week 2.

Yes, Portis may even have a better year here. We havan't had a great runner since Davis left. Our blocking is going to be great which leads me to say that an average back could excel in this sytem. Of course CP being above average will take him that much further.

If possible I would have kept Bailey and signed Rudi Johnson if he was available.

Redskins Rule · Post by **Redskins Rule** » Fri May 14, 2004 6:20 pm

You know I used to think that Champ was a good corner if not the top 5 in the league. But I stopped thinking that during the Philly game. The last Philly game at home. There was a screen pass to Champ Bailey's side of the field. Champ Bailey managed to shake off one blocker then literally escorted that Philly player into the endzone. He was only a few feet from him (maybe a yard) and he didn't even dive at him. That really pissed me off.

In my humble opinion if someone plays with a heart like that he should be let go whether he wants to or not.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but that is what I remember seeing.

DEHog · Post by **DEHog** » Fri May 14, 2004 6:59 pm

The whole team mailed that one in...your going to let one play define Champ. Weren't there 10 other guys on the field??

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Fri May 14, 2004 7:12 pm

The whole team mailed that one in...your going to let one play define Champ. Weren't there 10 other guys on the field??

Don't forget that lame *** coach we had. We got burned on the same play like 3 times in ONE GAME!!! And again next week!!!

tcwest10 · Post by **tcwest10** » Fri May 14, 2004 7:20 pm

DE, Bailey is to you like Monk is to me, and no amount of argument will sway you. At best, all you and I can do is root for our faves when they go to their new teams. I rooted for Monk in NY and Philly (he refused to sign until after the Redskin games were off the shedule). You'll root for Champ in Denver.
Good for you, man. Good for you.
It its own space, though...I'm happy to have Portis. I think he'll be a great addition to our offense. Will Springs be another Bailey ? Nah. Nobody will be another Bailey. Maybe, though, it's just as good to be Springs.
Let's see how it all plays out. For the team, though, I hope you're way off.

DEHog · Post by **DEHog** » Fri May 14, 2004 7:34 pm

I know you may not beleive this, but it's not so much that I'm a Champ fan...I don't get real atached to any players. I was really looking at it this way. Here's a guy who one of the best at his position, never held out, plays every game. Now compare that to the players that have come and gone over the past 5 years the Champ played for us. I truly don't beleive it wouldn't have cost us what Denver paid had we approached it better. Portis is the exact opposite of Bailey...very self serving, injury prone and didn't honor his rookie contract. 2000 yards by Portis won't change my mind.

tcwest10 · Post by **tcwest10** » Fri May 14, 2004 7:52 pm

Well, then...How would ten picks by Smoot do ?

DEHog · Post by **DEHog** » Fri May 14, 2004 7:54 pm

LOL I could some how get by with that...it would mean Spring is doing his job on the other side!!

tcwest10 · Post by **tcwest10** » Fri May 14, 2004 7:59 pm

Well, then...We'll ask SkinsChic and Jake to boost Freddie's ego (as if it needed a boost !)He can cover anybody, man. He just needs somebody else to handle the rest of the eligible receivers. He'll be fine. I promise you.

Redskins Rule · Post by **Redskins Rule** » Fri May 14, 2004 8:09 pm

DEHog wrote:

The whole team mailed that one in...your going to let one play define Champ. Weren't there 10 other guys on the field??

Hey DEHog, Its not really about one play. Even though that really pissed me off I was willing to forgive and forget. What really got me even more pissed was during the pro bowl. Champ Bailey was locking down the best recievers in the league. He only got burned once. He looked to me alot like the Champ Bailey I knew two seasons ago and the beggining of last season. What pissed me off about it so much is that he seemed to be show casing himself. Trying to get his value up some. He didn't play hard like that for us at the end of the year. I remember him getting burned quite of few times and NOT only on touchdowns, but also on crucial third downs. But here comes the pro bowl and here comes the best cover corner in the league just locking them recievers down. I interpreted that as him just wanting to show other teams and fans of other teams how good he really was. I'm glad he's gone because he didn't look like he had the heart or the desire to be a Redskin any longer.