Major fall off in participation in here

[chiefhog44]

I haven’t been in here recently, typically poke my head in from time to time, but this time, the drop off in participation in these topics is very evident. In fact, in reviewing the game day only threads, there used to be 10 plus pages of comments for every game (not every week but most). This year and much of last year, it’s unusual to see more than 3...sometimes just 1. Seems like after that Giants game to end the 2016 season, the fan base gave up. Same can be said for attendance at games. I’ve always called out the fans at the games for sucking (did so for the first time about 10 years ago), but now it’s complete apathy. What was once a very proud franchise is now very different. Maybe it was the exhaustion from the Kirk Cousins saga. Maybe it’s the standing for the flag issues. Maybe the fan base has finally given up on the owner. Not sure but it’s clear as day. What gives? Is the fan base giving up on this team?

[chiefhog44]

Maybe it’s as easy as getting rid of Allen. I personally think Kyle Smith is a future stud GM and we need to hold onto him. I wish to GOD we held onto McVay.

[DEHog]

I think it’s a generational issue. My son has never seen the Skins get past the first round of the playoffs. For years the Skins have lived off the great teams of the 80’s, that generation is now retiring and moving south. The Skins haven’t given the next generation much to cheer about or support.

[Burgundy&GoldForever]

All I ever knew of the Redskins was the Glory Years between 1972 and 1992. And then came the dark ages of Dan Snyder. Jack Kent Cooke really screwed up by not making sure the team stayed in the Cooke family. Between that and social media now dominating the internet forums have really taken a hit. There are plenty of fans still whining on Facebook and Twitter every week but I can't stand social media so I drop in here or nowhere. ExtremeSkins has always been a steaming pile of dog doo so I avoid it like the plague it is.

[welch]

For me, it has been Dan Snyder. He does not change, and it has been almost 20 years. Kirk Cousins? Just more Snyder-ism, from the failure to extend Cousins a contract way-back-when to little Bruce Allen trying to lie about the whopping gigantic contract that he said the Redskins had offered Cousins, but which reporters counted out as both double-counting the amount Cousins was guaranteed by having been protected plus non-guaranteed future years. And Allen's "Curt" dismissal of Cousins' first name just adds to my belief that Snyder has run my life-time team into the most dismal franchise in professional sports

The goal of a professional team is to win games. Therefore, Snyder fails...and think of the Snyder teams without the four years of Joe Gibbs. Snyder's organization is failure without class. During the game last night, I remembered the Charlie Casserly / Norv Turner years: a rough start as the team adjusted to the salary cap and life without Joe Gibbs and staff, but a team that worked back to respectability. Think of Early-Snyder: signing Jeff George, firing Norv Turner, firing Turner's coaches -- including Russ Grimm and Charlie Taylor -- then firing Redskin team employees. Snyder failed failed from the beginning, and failed in a slimy way.

Snyder teams are hard to watch, but my grandfather and father became Redskin fans as soon as the team moved down from Boston, and my first football memory is of Eddie LeBaron as the starting QB. Dad told me that the Skins had had the greatest QB in all football, but that he had just retired. I was to young to know what had been the glory years. Same, I think, for Washingtonians too young to have known the Joe Gibbs years.

That some NFL players knelt during the National Anthem does not bother me a bit. That the same Bruce Allen who fouled the Redskins' QB situation sneers at the mere thought of signing Colin Kaepernick rather than Buttfumble and Whoever reinforces the thought that Dan Snyder runs the Redskins the way George Preston Marshall did. For some history, for some context out of the late-50s, when I was a kid suffering through Redskin loss after loss while Shirley Povich wrote column after column: Marshall countered thusly: You're saying white boys can't play football. Consider the soon-to-be-signed Redskin backup QB, and that in 1960, Marshall boasted that he had offered third-string QB M.C. Reynolds to the Browns for Bobby Mitchell, so that Paul Brown was keeping the Redskins from integrating. Yes, Snyder is so bad that he begins to remind me of GPM. Buttfumble might be better than M.C. Reynolds, but the next guy?

Last week, my optimistic thought was , "The Skins have not signed Kareem Hunt, yet".

So, it's prolonged Snyder-ization. I perk up when, as early this season, the Redskins show some life. The team's defense looked strong and the OL was holding up. No receivers, and Smith seemed "limited" and with a long contract, but, I thought, wait until Doug Williams drafts some receivers. Wait till next year.

And so it goes. Receivers and a good QB, and some magic on defense. The Caps are playing well, and they won the Cup, and Ovie is something like the hockey equivalent of Walter Johnson. Rizzo has made some sound moves, and, I wonder, will he sign a top-three starting pitcher? It's hard to focus on the Redskins.

[Redskin in Canada]

Maybe it was the exhaustion from the Kirk Cousins saga.

A contribution, yes, but only one more drop in a deeper bucket.

Maybe it’s the standing for the flag issues.

Other teams with far more serious issues do not have this problem if they play well.

Maybe the fan base has finally given up on the owner.

Bingo.

Not sure but it’s clear as day.

You and I are old enough to remember the sold out ticket lines and the years-long waiting list to become season ticket holders.

Then it bacame a MYTH and it is now a sad embarrassment to listen to the complaints of the players because a "home" game has more fans from opposing teams and ours are unhappy.

Not sure but it’s clear as day.

Drops in every forum, not only this one. Few people wearing burgundy and gold on the streets. You can fool some of the fan base some of the time but you cannot fool all of the fan base all of the time.

What gives?

In one of the most competitive sports leagues in the world, NFL teams do not only compete on the field. Just as important as the field, I argue even more, is the competition among front offices. When you have a poor CEO, a poor owner, your company goes eventually bankrupt. In the case of the Washington Redskins, people and fans also expressed their views in the market: they walked away, they voted with their feet, they left. This was one of the proudest fan bases in all of sports between Lombardi and Gibbs. It took a lot of hard bad work, incompetence, greed, and terrible judgment to destroy it in two decades.

That is what gives.

Sincerely,

Redskin in Canada

[gibbsfan]

I haven’t been in here recently, typically poke my head in from time to time, but this time, the drop off in participation in these topics is very evident. In fact, in reviewing the game day only threads, there used to be 10 plus pages of comments for every game (not every week but most). This year and much of last year, it’s unusual to see more than 3...sometimes just 1. Seems like after that Giants game to end the 2016 season, the fan base gave up. Same can be said for attendance at games. I’ve always called out the fans at the games for sucking (did so for the first time about 10 years ago), but now it’s complete apathy. What was once a very proud franchise is now very different. Maybe it was the exhaustion from the Kirk Cousins saga. Maybe it’s the standing for the flag issues. Maybe the fan base has finally given up on the owner. Not sure but it’s clear as day. What gives? Is the fan base giving up on this team?

its pretty simple..... Ownership.... still waiting for that miracle to happen to this once very proud organzation.

[welch]

But good to see posts from folks I haven't seen here, at least in a while!

[cowboykillerzRGiii]

There is also the whole social media thing... Twitter and fb groups... Losing is def the worst. I cant say owner, because if Dan and Bruce were running the show and we made it deep in the playoffs id be just as happy if it was Jesus

[DEHog]

There is also the whole social media thing... Twitter and fb groups... Losing is def the worst. I cant say owner, because if Dan and Bruce were running the show and we made it deep in the playoffs id be just as happy if it was Jesus

This is why I like coming here, good and knowledgeable football conversation here...social media is a joke!

[El Mexican]

For me, down here, it's the owner. Can't stand the guy. That tends to permeate through the rest of the team.

Sadly, our team is the least popular of the NFC East, according to Google Trends. That must mean something.

(Can't place the image, but easy enough to check for yourself)

[cowboykillerzRGiii]

But..... The participation has been high under Snyder is my point. When was th.net founded? Point being.. We have had a dip and it was the same owner and likely as good or worse team- we havent been "good" in decades!

I get the DS hate... Just not as a reason for less posting here

[emoses14]

To be completely honest, I was able to withstand all of the ownership and front office bull under DS right up until RGIII's knee buckled against the Seahawks, and the fallout that ensued. The predictable dividing lines in the fanbase with respect to that debacle and then with respect to the increasing over-adulation of Cousins for the next 3 years AND the teams inability to lock that simpering, "upper range of average qb" up was the death knell for my posting habits. There's only so many times you can have the same conversation and debate about those topics before you prefer painting the guest bathroom.

It also is tiring defending a team that has sucked for so long, does the wrong thing, literally all the time, has a racist name (I love the name, I have always and will continue to defend it. I think people should stop whining about it. It is also racist and should be changed.), and really gives you nothing but (fond, awesome, historic) memories to use in arguments. It has been 30 years since Doug Williams picked himself up off the field, told Jay Schroeder to sit down and cemented my already years long fandom.

I've simply had enough of the redskins and until at least one of these things changes, I can't justify the effort it takes to watch them while living in Atlanta where they are hardly ever the game that is shown. ESPECIALLY WHEN EVER THEY ARE SHOWN NATIONALLY ON THANKSGIVING, SUNDAY AND MONDAY NIGHT BROADCASTS, IT IS SUCH A S*#!SHOW.

I miss certain players, I miss winning, I miss superbowls. What i miss most, though, is some semblance of competence anywhere within the organization. I don't actually blame only Snyder, because that is too easy, but I also have leaned in to the apathy. This, unfortunately, does not a good poster make.

[riggofan]

But..... The participation has been high under Snyder is my point. When was th.net founded? Point being.. We have had a dip and it was the same owner and likely as good or worse team- we havent been "good" in decades!

Well, if you're wondering about board participation, I'm pretty sure SkinsJock has personally decimated about 80% of user participation on this board.

I just get tired of talking about the owner. If every discussion of "football" always comes down to: "this team will never be good as long as Dan Snyder owns it blah blah blah" then what's the point of talking about it anymore? Its boring. Also, Dan Snyder is like 51 years old if I'm not mistaken. He's not going anywhere as much as I know that sucks.

I also don't buy that the team can't ever be good under Snyder. These other 31 team owners are not all football geniuses either and many of them meddle in the team just as much as Snyder does. I think as a Skins fan - assuming you care enough to do so - you just have to hope that Snyder finally lucks his way into something that works.

We were ONE pick away from Andrew Luck instead of RG3. I kinda think Shanahans + Andrew Luck might have had a different outcome myself.

I get though that fans are tired of what if's and we'll get'em next year's. I'm tired too.

[gibbsfan]

For me, it has been Dan Snyder. He does not change, and it has been almost 20 years. Kirk Cousins? Just more Snyder-ism, from the failure to extend Cousins a contract way-back-when to little Bruce Allen trying to lie about the whopping gigantic contract that he said the Redskins had offered Cousins, but which reporters counted out as both double-counting the amount Cousins was guaranteed by having been protected plus non-guaranteed future years. And Allen's "Curt" dismissal of Cousins' first name just adds to my belief that Snyder has run my life-time team into the most dismal franchise in professional sports

The goal of a professional team is to win games. Therefore, Snyder fails...and think of the Snyder teams without the four years of Joe Gibbs. Snyder's organization is failure without class. During the game last night, I remembered the Charlie Casserly / Norv Turner years: a rough start as the team adjusted to the salary cap and life without Joe Gibbs and staff, but a team that worked back to respectability. Think of Early-Snyder: signing Jeff George, firing Norv Turner, firing Turner's coaches -- including Russ Grimm and Charlie Taylor -- then firing Redskin team employees. Snyder failed failed from the beginning, and failed in a slimy way.

Snyder teams are hard to watch, but my grandfather and father became Redskin fans as soon as the team moved down from Boston, and my first football memory is of Eddie LeBaron as the starting QB. Dad told me that the Skins had had the greatest QB in all football, but that he had just retired. I was to young to know what had been the glory years. Same, I think, for Washingtonians too young to have known the Joe Gibbs years.

That some NFL players knelt during the National Anthem does not bother me a bit. That the same Bruce Allen who fouled the Redskins' QB situation sneers at the mere thought of signing Colin Kaepernick rather than Buttfumble and Whoever reinforces the thought that Dan Snyder runs the Redskins the way George Preston Marshall did. For some history, for some context out of the late-50s, when I was a kid suffering through Redskin loss after loss while Shirley Povich wrote column after column: Marshall countered thusly: You're saying white boys can't play football. Consider the soon-to-be-signed Redskin backup QB, and that in 1960, Marshall boasted that he had offered third-string QB M.C. Reynolds to the Browns for Bobby Mitchell, so that Paul Brown was keeping the Redskins from integrating. Yes, Snyder is so bad that he begins to remind me of GPM. Buttfumble might be better than M.C. Reynolds, but the next guy?

Last week, my optimistic thought was , "The Skins have not signed Kareem Hunt, yet".

So, it's prolonged Snyder-ization. I perk up when, as early this season, the Redskins show some life. The team's defense looked strong and the OL was holding up. No receivers, and Smith seemed "limited" and with a long contract, but, I thought, wait until Doug Williams drafts some receivers. Wait till next year.

And so it goes. Receivers and a good QB, and some magic on defense. The Caps are playing well, and they won the Cup, and Ovie is something like the hockey equivalent of Walter Johnson. Rizzo has made some sound moves, and, I wonder, will he sign a top-three starting pitcher? It's hard to focus on the Redskins.

im there with ya too on all counts, i mean its just the way they do things...
ive been lurking just not posting ..just very fustrated by management in the front office not hiring football people and allowing them to
put in their vision and having a consistent winner ,Its been very fustrating ...all i have are 80's/early 90's memories to hold on to....ive enjoyed watching
Joe Gibbs take his vision into nascar and do the samething in racing @Joe Gibbs Racing and form a powerhouse with about 500 employees ..i would love to see dan have a vision like Joe Gibbs ..Yeah i;m dreaming ....20 years will do it to ya..

[cowboykillerzRGiii]

But..... The participation has been high under Snyder is my point. When was th.net founded? Point being.. We have had a dip and it was the same owner and likely as good or worse team- we havent been "good" in decades!

Well, if you're wondering about board participation, I'm pretty sure SkinsJock has personally decimated about 80% of user participation on this board.

I just get tired of talking about the owner. If every discussion of "football" always comes down to: "this team will never be good as long as Dan Snyder owns it blah blah blah" then what's the point of talking about it anymore? Its boring. Also, Dan Snyder is like 51 years old if I'm not mistaken. He's not going anywhere as much as I know that sucks.

I also don't buy that the team can't ever be good under Snyder. These other 31 team owners are not all football geniuses either and many of them meddle in the team just as much as Snyder does. I think as a Skins fan - assuming you care enough to do so - you just have to hope that Snyder finally lucks his way into something that works.

We were ONE pick away from Andrew Luck instead of RG3. I kinda think Shanahans + Andrew Luck might have had a different outcome myself.

I get though that fans are tired of what if's and we'll get'em next year's. I'm tired too.

Couldnt agree more man... The beaten horse of "the front office" and "Allen is..." This that and the other thing... DS has owned the team since what '99?? We drafted the late great Sean Taylor in 2004!
Ya its been up and down with mostly downs... Posters were active during the McNugget debacle, yet- this is (on paper; save the current qb situation) one of the most talented groups we've had in some time.

The excessive amount of injuries kills me tho- the last 2 years have been nothing short of devastating in that respect. Not sure if its the strength and conditioning team, a curse, the turf, bad luck, or otherwise... But its disheartening nonetheless, and drives me away from not just the board- but the NFL in general.

ButtFumble with his 10 plays makes me want to spend my time casting streamers and catching fish instead!

Last year we hit a similar wall- albeit not as bad... I caught fish and recorded the game instead of watching/ posting... Aand sure as sh1t we beat Seattle in their house, 12th man and all!!

Not filling great about the last quarter of this season though; particularly with ButtFumble at the helm

But alas, this team has made me a gluten for punishment- thus I'll still be here each week:

HTTR

[SkinsJock]

screw the doubters and screw those that think this is their space and that their viewpoint is the only one that matters

this is a place to come and post your opinions (good or bad) on the Redskins - we have gone from 6-3 to 6-6 and we could end up 4th in the NFC East - I'm VERY DISAPPOINTED

OK - Contrary to what some want you to think or know - I do think this franchise can be successful with Dan Snyder as the owner
Dan Snyder just needs to get rid of Bruce Allen and hire a GM and let him manage the franchise like MOST of the other NFL franchises

I also don't know that we need to get rid of Jay Gruden (although the new GM might want to) - this franchise has to go through a couple of drafts to even begin to be competitive again - why not keep him here and get rid of him later

[Burgundy&GoldForever]

Redacted.

[SkinsJock]

hopefully that helped you ...

[chiefhog44]

I’m not sure the statement that this team will never win when Snyder is owner is true. I think it’s hope that’s keeping people from being engaged. With gruden, you have a middling coach. Those are the results you can expect. With Cousins, he’s a middling QB. Those are the results he gives. Smith is a middling QB, and it was only when he was surrounded by TOP talent, that he was winner. There’s no hope in being average.

I think if Snyder brought in a forward thinking President and GM, who hired a progressive young head coach, I think the fan base would support that. There would be hope. RG3 brought hope and the fans were out full force. But the retread idea is is getting old. The hiring of a coaching staff that has never sniffed success anywhere is an issue. It doesn’t provide any hope. Unfortunately we let McVey walk...and I think that was a HUGE organizational mistake. Using data analytics to HELP build teams, along with cutting edge offensive minded coaches is what we need. Problem is, this owner and many of the fan base are still stuck in decades old “run the ball and stop the run” mentality. Not saying that can’t work, but this franchise has yet to show it’s able to think outside the box.

Think outside the box. Push to be ahead of the curve. You are a young aggressive owner... hire an aggressive young GM, and aggressive young head coach. Not some pansy GM and conservative head coach that doesn’t know how to go for the throat.

[cowboykillerzRGiii]

Id hire Ohio st coach and draft his qb... Hope

[cowboykillerzRGiii]

screw the doubters and screw those that think this is their space and that their viewpoint is the only one that matters

this is a place to come and post your opinions (good or bad) on the Redskins - we have gone from 6-3 to 6-6 and we could end up 4th in the NFC East - I'm VERY DISAPPOINTED

OK - Contrary to what some want you to think or know - I do think this franchise can be successful with Dan Snyder as the owner
Dan Snyder just needs to get rid of Bruce Allen and hire a GM and let him manage the franchise like MOST of the other NFL franchises

I also don't know that we need to get rid of Jay Gruden (although the new GM might want to) - this franchise has to go through a couple of drafts to even begin to be competitive again - why not keep him here and get rid of him later

Not a single person has discounted your opinion brother... But post after post after post after post after post about the same narrative is tiring man! -And I'd bet my bottom dollar that posters quit posting as much due to the lack of wanting to read the same tired dribble.

Your signature states your opinion, and doesn't need to be reiterated in every thread is all.

New thoughtful discussions will intice members to post- the Browns still have a strong fan base- despite being trash for yearssssssss

Because they are loyal and have faith that its gonna turn around. We arent far off.. As you said 6-3.. Crazy amounts of injuries, an aged RB and still in the hunt for the division title! Now losing 2 qbs to broken legs is unheard of, and any team would be hard pressed to overcome sich losses (not to mention all those lost for the year already [Guice, PRich, Lavou, Sherrif, Alex, Colt + TW having surgery, CT out most games, Crowder as well, Dunny hurt, Mosses banged up, Anderson hurt etc etc]) Remeber when Ohno went down a few years back? 2-14 (with the best Oline in the game) or something right?

We have buttfumble at qb and only a week and a half learning the scheme, and are likely screwed- but the team has grown over the years hence the 6-3 start.

Its not over- I'll still root and cheer... And more often likely cuss at rhe refs, but I wont waver or quit.


I'll also save the bitching about the coach, gm, and owner for the offseason- but thats just me.


I appreciate your contributions here, but some times the drum just gets beaten over and over and drounds out any meaningful discussions.

Nothing but love SJ- F the owner and Allen... Now what?

[Burgundy&GoldForever]

I’m not sure the statement that this team will never win when Snyder is owner is true. I think it’s hope that’s keeping people from being engaged. With gruden, you have a middling coach. Those are the results you can expect. With Cousins, he’s a middling QB. Those are the results he gives. Smith is a middling QB, and it was only when he was surrounded by TOP talent, that he was winner. There’s no hope in being average.

I think if Snyder brought in a forward thinking President and GM, who hired a progressive young head coach, I think the fan base would support that. There would be hope. RG3 brought hope and the fans were out full force. But the retread idea is is getting old. The hiring of a coaching staff that has never sniffed success anywhere is an issue. It doesn’t provide any hope. Unfortunately we let McVey walk...and I think that was a HUGE organizational mistake. Using data analytics to HELP build teams, along with cutting edge offensive minded coaches is what we need. Problem is, this owner and many of the fan base are still stuck in decades old “run the ball and stop the run” mentality. Not saying that can’t work, but this franchise has yet to show it’s able to think outside the box.

Think outside the box. Push to be ahead of the curve. You are a young aggressive owner... hire an aggressive young GM, and aggressive young head coach. Not some pansy GM and conservative head coach that doesn’t know how to go for the throat.

The owner is the reason we have a garbage general manager, a middling head coach, the worst stadium and fan experience in the league, no direction and no philosophy. The owner who keeps Bruce Allen around because of his name is not going to do any of the things you suggest. This is the man who refuses to give Colin Kaepernick a job because the league won't like it. This is the man who refused to even consider Eric Reid when his team needed two starting safeties because the league wouldn't like it. This is the same lily white conservative racist owner as all of his predecessors, who will only change if it's his last option to get football in D.C., just as another Redskins owner once did. This owner not only does not learn from history, he repeats it. He managed to drive off the most sought after general manager, one of the most qualified and respected head coaches, and dozens of pro bowl players just so he could keep Bruce Allen happy. He's the reason the team drafted RGIII, who was never an NFL quarterback by any reasonable measure. They mortgaged the future for a QB who can't pass from the pocket. All because that's what Danny and Bruce wanted. Expecting Snyder to change has proven itself an exercise in futility. It's a good old boys club and if your name is Allen you can do no wrong. Not even Joe Gibbs 1.0 and Bobby Beathard could fix the mess that is this team because Dan Snyder wouldn't let them. He can't allow himself to sign the checks and stay out of football operations. Everyone knows it and that is the reason no top level general manager or head coach will touch this team with a ten foot pole.

[Burgundy&GoldForever]

hopefully that helped you ...

It helped me far more than reading your posts ever has.

[chiefhog44]

I’m not sure the statement that this team will never win when Snyder is owner is true. I think it’s hope that’s keeping people from being engaged. With gruden, you have a middling coach. Those are the results you can expect. With Cousins, he’s a middling QB. Those are the results he gives. Smith is a middling QB, and it was only when he was surrounded by TOP talent, that he was winner. There’s no hope in being average.

I think if Snyder brought in a forward thinking President and GM, who hired a progressive young head coach, I think the fan base would support that. There would be hope. RG3 brought hope and the fans were out full force. But the retread idea is is getting old. The hiring of a coaching staff that has never sniffed success anywhere is an issue. It doesn’t provide any hope. Unfortunately we let McVey walk...and I think that was a HUGE organizational mistake. Using data analytics to HELP build teams, along with cutting edge offensive minded coaches is what we need. Problem is, this owner and many of the fan base are still stuck in decades old “run the ball and stop the run” mentality. Not saying that can’t work, but this franchise has yet to show it’s able to think outside the box.

Think outside the box. Push to be ahead of the curve. You are a young aggressive owner... hire an aggressive young GM, and aggressive young head coach. Not some pansy GM and conservative head coach that doesn’t know how to go for the throat.

The owner is the reason we have a garbage general manager, a middling head coach, the worst stadium and fan experience in the league, no direction and no philosophy. The owner who keeps Bruce Allen around because of his name is not going to do any of the things you suggest. This is the man who refuses to give Colin Kaepernick a job because the league won't like it. This is the man who refused to even consider Eric Reid when his team needed two starting safeties because the league wouldn't like it. This is the same lily white conservative racist owner as all of his predecessors, who will only change if it's his last option to get football in D.C., just as another Redskins owner once did. This owner not only does not learn from history, he repeats it. He managed to drive off the most sought after general manager, one of the most qualified and respected head coaches, and dozens of pro bowl players just so he could keep Bruce Allen happy. He's the reason the team drafted RGIII, who was never an NFL quarterback by any reasonable measure. They mortgaged the future for a QB who can't pass from the pocket. All because that's what Danny and Bruce wanted. Expecting Snyder to change has proven itself an exercise in futility. It's a good old boys club and if your name is Allen you can do no wrong. Not even Joe Gibbs 1.0 and Bobby Beathard could fix the mess that is this team because Dan Snyder wouldn't let them. He can't allow himself to sign the checks and stay out of football operations. Everyone knows it and that is the reason no top level general manager or head coach will touch this team with a ten foot pole.

I’ll save my opinion for after this next move. He learned what not to do with Cerrato. Hopefully he learns what not to do from Bruce Allen. If not, there’s no hope. Because he’ll never sell this team. Well that blows.