What a difference in $$$ a year makes...

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What a difference in $$$ a year makes...

Post by tribeofjudah »

New era for NFL, new CBA, etc. etc..... I never did agree with paying TOP $$$ for high draft rooks.

44 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply » AdamSchefter Adam Schefter
Cam Newton's contract is worth $56 million less in overall money and $28 million less in guaranteed money than Sam Bradford's deal.58 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply


I say this is a GOOD thing.....
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Post by 1niksder »

and NO rookies are holding out
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Post by tribeofjudah »

1niksder wrote:and NO rookies are holding out


+1
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Re: What a difference in $$$ a year makes...

Post by Irn-Bru »

Well it's making some cranks happy, but honestly I think this is a very raw deal for the rookies from here on out. Yes, I agree (but only to a limited extent) that rookie contracts were way out of hand. Still, look at the effects of the new cap:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=8998

NFL veterans robbed Cameron Newton to pay Olindo Mare
Posted by Chase Stuart on July 28, 2011
« 2011 Free Agent Tracking
Olindo Mare gets paid to kick footballs, not to predict the future. So cut him some slack for being wide right on one projection. In March, he said that he would give a hometown discount to Seattle.

I think that whole highest bid thing for me is not quite as important with the four kids.... [On whether he would give Seattle a hometown discount] Oh, absolutely. For sure. I would be stupid not to. The Seahawks gave me an opportunity. I always take that into consideration also. But we’ll see. I have to get a offer first.... What would be great would be is if there was a bunch and it would show that people appreciate what you do, and that’s always flattering. Just to get all your options available. If you signed [for] three, four, five years, that would be your last contract. You want to make sure that everything was done right. But yeah, Seattle will definitely get a home discount.

Mare was operating under the assumption that a few teams would pay him market salaries and he'd sign with Seattle if they were in the same ballpark. In 2008, he signed a two-year contract for $3.25 million, good money for a 35-year-old kicker. Seattle didn't want to give a long-term contract to a 37-year-old placekicker, so they franchised him for the 2010 season, electing to pay him $2.8 million for one year instead of giving him a contract extension. Presumably, in the spring of 2011, Mare was hoping for something along the lines of a three-year, six million dollar deal. That would be a bump over what he signed three years earlier in both years and per-year value, and would be a coup for a 38-year-old kicker.

Seattle may have offered him that contract, but Carolina instead gave Mare a four-year, $12 million dollar offer. That happened not because Mare went back on his word, but in the intervening months, the NFL veterans decided to rob Cam Newton to pay Olindo Mare. The most important (and player-friendly) aspect of the new CBA was the salary floor, requiring teams like Carolina to spend tens of millions of dollars. Only not on rookies. In the past 48 hours, Carolina opened up their paychecks to spend:

$78 million on a six-year deal for DE Charles Johnson
$22 million on a five-year deal for LLB James Anderson
$43 million on a five-year deal for 28-year-old RB DeAngelo Williams
an undisclosed amount to extend Thomas Davis' contract for another five years, because why not? (That's a rhetorical 'why not,' as Davis has torn his ACL twice in the past two years and has played in just 7 games since 2009).
In addition to the Mare signing, Carolina also spent $8.5M on former Chiefs DT Ron Edwards and signed several other veterans to smaller deals.

But between Mare, Williams, Anderson and Johnson, Carolina has opened the door to spend $155 million dollars on three players who were on the team last year and a kicker. But hope and optimism for the Panthers in 2011 and beyond mainly rests on the drafting of Auburn star Cam Newton. And what will Carolina pay the young quarterback? Roughly 22 million dollars over four seasons, with a team-option for a fifth year.

That's right: over the next four years, Carolina will pay their 38-year-old placekicker 12 million dollars and their franchise savior 22 million dollars. Newton's contract looks even worse when you consider that Carolina can hold him for a fifth season, making it difficult for players to renegotiate until after they've completed three seasons.

Over the next three years, Matt Hasselbeck will make 21 million dollars from Tennessee. Hasselbeck made the Pro Bowl in 2007, but will be 36 years old in September. The last three seasons he's sported a 12-23 record while playing in the worst division in football, and despite averaging only 4.46 Adjusted Net Yards per Attempt over that span. Since '08, only Derek Anderson has a lower ANY/A average.

On the open market, Cam Netwon would likely sign a six- or seven- year deal worth $70-$90 million dollars. If you're the Cardinals, you can't sign Aaron Rodgers or Philip Rivers or Ben Roethlisberger. You won't be able to touch Josh Freeman or Matt Ryan, or even Matt Stafford or Mark Sanchez. Young quarterbacks are in such high demand because if that quarterback can be productive, the team can hold on to him for a decade.

Playing in the NFL is very different than almost any other job. The best engineers in the world are rarely 23 years of age. The most valuable lawyers aren't 22-years-old. But as Chris Johnson showed, sometimes the best offensive player in football can be 24-years-old. Now, Frank Gore is holding out because the San Francisco 49ers don't want to pay him, at 28-years-old, a big contract. The 49ers think his best days may be behind him, and certainly don't want to give an aging player a big money contract. But NFL GMs and owners have talked out of both sides of their mouths, not wanting to reward "unproven" players or "old" players.

That's why the players' biggest coup was enforcing the minimum salary floor. As PFT's Mike Florio writes, "99% of the salary cap must be spent in cash in aggregate between 2011-2012. The league-wide number falls to 95% after that. Teams must spend at least 89% of the cap from 2013-2016 and 2017-2020."

Teams are therefore forced to spend their money, and not allowed to spend their money on rookies. Hence this post's title: owners must pay veterans and must pay them lots of money. The Panthers and Bucs were two of the teams that were "forced" to spend the most money. We saw what the Panthers did. While Tampa Bay hasn't made any big splashes yet, the Bucs resigned Quincy Black -- a linebacker most fans have never heard of -- to a five-year deal worth $29 million. Essentially, Quincy Black is getting Cam Newton money. Fans have tended to blast rookie salaries on the basis of "right" and "wrong." But no one could argue that Black and Newton are equally valuable prospects over the next decade of play.

And, of course, this is not simply a Cam Newton diatribe. The Bengals signed fourth overall pick A.J. Green to a four-year deal worth $19.6 million, with a team option to extend the deal to a fifth year. Sidney Rice just signed a deal for $41 million over five years, Santonio Holmes went for $50 million over the same span, and Santana Moss just got $15 million over three years from the Redskins. Only one of those contracts looks like a steal. Even the Bengals wouldn't be silly enough to trade Green for Moss, yet Moss's contract is actually more player-friendly than Green's! Try getting someone in your dynasty league to trade A.J. Green for Santana Moss, and see how that goes. Green isn't as proven as Holmes, but his contract is significantly less attractive. On the open market, I suspect he'd sign for a bit more than the megadeal Rice just landed.

The rookie cap isn't going away. And outside of a few holdouts by younger players over the next few years, we may not hear much about this. But the media's lack of outrage -- Jason Lisk notwithstanding, of course -- over the way veterans have stolen money from rookies is disappointing. Helpless to defend themselves, the best rookie on the planet is going to get a deal equivalent to a decent linebacker on Tampa Bay. Rookie contracts never struck me as "unfair" before, but they certainly do now.

Update: Within five minutes of publishing this article, Kevin Kolb's new contract with the Arizona Cardinals was announced. Five years, $63.5 million. Kolb will be getting double Cam Newton money. Because he's a proven veteran, after all.



Is it supposed to make everyone happy that the most talented young player can only command half of what a below-average starter can get?

This is the Not For Long league. It's really terrible, IMO, to take away most of the earning potential of guys who may not see 8 and 10 and 14 year careers, especially when you are essentially transfering that money to veterans who otherwise wouldn't be able to command as much as free agents.

I know I'm in a small minority on this one. Just my My 2 cents. I guess that's just the way things have to be.
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Post by Bob 0119 »

You can have all the talent in the world in college, but until you earn your stripes on the field you don't deserve anything special.

Yes, that includes making less than a 37-year old kicker...

I think the league will see more benefit from this than otherwise as teams will have more money for their veterans (the way it should be) instead of having to save a ton of cash in anticipation of being worked-over by a first rounder's agent.
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Post by Redskins_Fanatic »

I definitely agree that the Veterans who have proven they can play deserve the Lion's share of the money, and the rookies deserve considerably less.

My problem with the rookie wage scale and my problem with the salary cap in general are both Philosophical in nature... the idea that the League should be telling a team what they can and have to spend goes against everything I believe in.

If a team wants to spend only $50 million and field a team that couldn't beat most NCAA Div. I teams, so be it. Their fanbase will soon be gone and the team with it. On the other hand if a team can afford to spend $180 million on players, why shouldn't they be allowed to?
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Post by tribeofjudah »

Merit Pay. College stats are great but prove yourself in Not For Long .....THEN you can get an increase.

Put in some "escalator" clause. Paycheck can go UP or DOWN depending on their annual performance review.
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Post by DarthMonk »

Cam can try another line of work. So can any owner who's not happy with the deal he helped ratify.

Some might say rooks have been stealing from vets for quite some time.

No tears here.

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Post by Irn-Bru »

Cam can try another line of work. So can any owner who's not happy with the deal he helped ratify.


Rookies didn't have any say in this one, so even if the owner would be acting hypocritically to turn his back on the deal, by your criterion here the rookie would not be. (Hypothetically speaking.)

But even putting that aside for the moment, I think the whole argument is a bad one anyway. Notice that it would apply equally as well to veterans who were unhappy about rookie pay: "Those vets can go find another line of work if they are unhappy." It proves too much: no one anywhere can ever have a legitimate complaint about he's being treated, provided he can walk away. Thanks, that's a super helpful principle to keep in mind! :up:

I wouldn't mind the new cap so much if college players got paid for playing in school. Now they are all getting screwed on both ends.
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Post by Redskins_Fanatic »

tribeofjudah wrote:Merit Pay. College stats are great but prove yourself in Not For Long .....THEN you can get an increase.

Put in some "escalator" clause. Paycheck can go UP or DOWN depending on their annual performance review.


I've always thought that the XFL had an interesting idea. Players got paid depending on whether their team WON or lost and based on individual performances in those games. Play better and win games and you made $$$$. Play less well and lose, make much less $$$.

Obviously the NFLPA would never go for that, but I think it's an interesting idea to at least toss around in philosophical terms.
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Post by Irn-Bru »

tribeofjudah wrote:Merit Pay. College stats are great but prove yourself in Not For Long .....THEN you can get an increase.


Yeah, because that's a guaranteed way to reward hard work and get more of it. I know Albert Haynesworth agrees. :roll:


Put in some "escalator" clause. Paycheck can go UP or DOWN depending on their annual performance review.


Something like that wouldn't be a bad idea. And you'd find that rookies and young, unproven talent would benefit the most from it.

The vets would never go for it, though. They want those guaranteed contracts that they can lock in.
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Post by Irn-Bru »

Bob 0119 wrote:You can have all the talent in the world in college, but until you earn your stripes on the field you don't deserve anything special.

I have never understood how people could buy into this argument.

Why even have an NFL draft if college experience and performance is irrelevant to success in the NFL?


I think the league will see more benefit from this than otherwise as teams will have more money for their veterans (the way it should be)

So how about that young player who has a promising career cut short by injury? He plays at a very high level but makes peanuts (compared to the veterans). When it comes time for his reward, "the way it should be," he'll get nothing.

How about this? How about players get paid based on evaluations of past performance and in anticipation of what value they can provide next year? I like that instead of fostering a system where the goal should just be to hang around long enough to get your guaranteed payday. (That rookie who puts his body on the line for the team? Incredibly foolish.)
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Post by DarthMonk »

You ran pretty far afield with what I said.

Saying Cam Newton can try another line of work becomes "no one anywhere can ever have a legitimate complaint about (sic) he's being treated, provided he can walk away."

I think you know the problems with the position you staked out as well as anyone as I do mine so I'm not gonna really go for it. We'd be parsing back and forth for a while.

Needless to say, I don't think Cam Newton is getting a raw deal. 32 teams followed a procedure they use to decide which one of them can negotiate with him. In the broadest sense, Cam Newton was still a "Free Agent" right after Carolina became that team. He could have negotiated freely with pretty much any other business in the world. He chose the one that will pay him the most for sure.

What you say about soldiers doesn't mean much unless they are truly "drafted" into service which, btw, college football players are not.

It is, in fact, a very helpful principle to keep in mind.

I think they only end the rooks are getting screwed on at all is the college end.

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Irn-Bru wrote:
Cam can try another line of work. So can any owner who's not happy with the deal he helped ratify.


Rookies didn't have any say in this one, so even if the owner would be acting hypocritically to turn his back on the deal, by your criterion here the rookie would not be. (Hypothetically speaking.)

But even putting that aside for the moment, I think the whole argument is a bad one anyway. Notice that it would apply equally as well to veterans who were unhappy about rookie pay: "Those vets can go find another line of work if they are unhappy." It proves too much: no one anywhere can ever have a legitimate complaint about he's being treated, provided he can walk away. Thanks, that's a super helpful principle to keep in mind! :up:

I wouldn't mind the new cap so much if college players got paid for playing in school. Now they are all getting screwed on both ends.
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Post by Irn-Bru »

In a random article I was reading, they pointed out that Olindo Mare missed an extra point this Sunday and has been very average on the year. Which is pretty much what one could have expected from him.

And then when you look at what his teammate Cam Newton is doing for the team . . . well, it's unbelievable to me that he's being paid less than Mare solely because of the new rules.

I'd like to think the NFL will try to fix the imbalance, but given that rookie payscales were such a hot issue for so long before being addressed, I'm not hopeful that will happen anytime soon. There are very few people crying for Cam Newton, but I think he definitely got the shaft.
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Post by Countertrey »

For $5 million a year, doing something I love, you can shaft me anytime you want. Please?
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Post by Irn-Bru »

Countertrey wrote:For $5 million a year, doing something I love, you can shaft me anytime you want. Please?


Hahaha. Well maybe using an extreme example would help illustrate the principle. Take a guy who built a business from the ground up and should be reaping $1 billion in profit in exchange for the value he's providing. (In this case, reflected in customers buying the product.) Now suppose an arbitrary rule limited his income that year to $5 million, while Entrepreneur Smith up the road — whose business barely breaks even, but who is 15 years older than our would-be billionaire — gets some of that billion, again due to the arbitrary rule, and ends up making $10 million on the year.

I mean, sure, I'd love that $5 million a year. But that doesn't mean the man isn't getting shafted. And it's also fair to say that Smith is getting a break at his expense.

Clear as mud? :)
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Post by Deadskins »

Redskins_Fanatic wrote:If a team wants to spend only $50 million and field a team that couldn't beat most NCAA Div. I teams, so be it. Their fanbase will soon be gone and the team with it. On the other hand if a team can afford to spend $180 million on players, why shouldn't they be allowed to?

No. Having everyone on a level playing field salary-wise helps the entire league stay healthy and grow. If you had the haves and the have nots, the sport would wither and die.
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Post by Deadskins »

Irn-Bru wrote:
Cam can try another line of work. So can any owner who's not happy with the deal he helped ratify.


Rookies didn't have any say in this one, so even if the owner would be acting hypocritically to turn his back on the deal, by your criterion here the rookie would not be. (Hypothetically speaking.)

But even putting that aside for the moment, I think the whole argument is a bad one anyway. Notice that it would apply equally as well to veterans who were unhappy about rookie pay: "Those vets can go find another line of work if they are unhappy." It proves too much: no one anywhere can ever have a legitimate complaint about he's being treated, provided he can walk away. Thanks, that's a super helpful principle to keep in mind! :up:

I wouldn't mind the new cap so much if college players got paid for playing in school. Now they are all getting screwed on both ends.

I think the point is that they may be getting screwed relative to what rookies used to be able to command, but looking at the bigger picture, they are still making a huge amount of money to play a game, and if they play well then they stand to make a whole lot more.
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Irn-Bru wrote:So how about that young player who has a promising career cut short by injury? He plays at a very high level but makes peanuts (compared to the veterans). When it comes time for his reward, "the way it should be," he'll get nothing.

That's what insurance is for. :idea:

Irn-Bru wrote:How about this? How about players get paid based on evaluations of past performance and in anticipation of what value they can provide next year?

That's a good idea, but like you said, the vets would never cut that deal.
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Post by KazooSkinsFan »

1niksder wrote:and NO rookies are holding out


Yep, rookie holdouts were almost always about greed, by their agents. No one who cared at all about their client would tell them to not be in an NFL facility participating in every possible activity from day 1 to maximize the chance of making it and maximizing their lifetime earnings. I do not apply that standard to vets who hold out, those really are case by case. But rookies holding out is just stupid unless all you care about is maximum dollars on only their rookie contract. And it's usually the agent who cares about only that.
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Post by Countertrey »

Irn-Bru wrote:
Countertrey wrote:For $5 million a year, doing something I love, you can shaft me anytime you want. Please?


Hahaha. Well maybe using an extreme example would help illustrate the principle. Take a guy who built a business from the ground up and should be reaping $1 billion in profit in exchange for the value he's providing. (In this case, reflected in customers buying the product.) Now suppose an arbitrary rule limited his income that year to $5 million, while Entrepreneur Smith up the road — whose business barely breaks even, but who is 15 years older than our would-be billionaire — gets some of that billion, again due to the arbitrary rule, and ends up making $10 million on the year.

I mean, sure, I'd love that $5 million a year. But that doesn't mean the man isn't getting shafted. And it's also fair to say that Smith is getting a break at his expense.

Clear as mud? :)


I see the current wage set up as similar to that of any mid sized to large corporation... their initial wage is generally set up as a range that reflects experience and knowledge... and caps what can be offered to the new employee. Sure, there are concerns that pay whatever the hell they want... but most provide a range... just like the NFL's Rookie Scale... with the exception that I'm not going to be offered 5 Million a year.

Sorry, IRB... I just can't see this as a shafting of the rookies.
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Post by KazooSkinsFan »

Irn-Bru wrote:
Countertrey wrote:For $5 million a year, doing something I love, you can shaft me anytime you want. Please?


Hahaha. Well maybe using an extreme example would help illustrate the principle. Take a guy who built a business from the ground up and should be reaping $1 billion in profit in exchange for the value he's providing. (In this case, reflected in customers buying the product.) Now suppose an arbitrary rule limited his income that year to $5 million, while Entrepreneur Smith up the road — whose business barely breaks even, but who is 15 years older than our would-be billionaire — gets some of that billion, again due to the arbitrary rule, and ends up making $10 million on the year.

I mean, sure, I'd love that $5 million a year. But that doesn't mean the man isn't getting shafted. And it's also fair to say that Smith is getting a break at his expense.

Clear as mud? :)


The flaw in your analogy is that you're using two people who compete in open markets. The salary cap is within the NFL, which is really a single business. GE limiting salaries to college grads across the many divisions that comprise GE has nothing to do with limiting free competition in the marketplace. If another football league starts up, they are not limited to the NFL's cap. The NFL would then need to compete with that league just like GE has to compete with other businesses that hire college graduates.

Note the NBA collective bargaining situation is far different then the NFL was. That's because the NBA has a lot more competition.
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Post by Irn-Bru »

Not sure I see the force of the point you're making by drawing the distinction between open and non-open markets.
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Post by Irn-Bru »

Deadskins wrote:That's what insurance is for. :idea:

I don't think a player like Cam Newton can get his future earnings insured. It's so risky, because injury is so common and so much is uncertain in the NFL, that the premiums would be so high I doubt it would make any sense to buy it.
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Post by Irn-Bru »

I hate to keep picking on this example, but it's a telling one.

Yesterday, Mare missed a game-winning attempt from 31 yards out — his only FG attempt of the game.

Cam Newton ran the offense and threw for 290 yds, 3 TDs, not to mention being their top rusher with 6 carries for 53 yds.

Mare is getting paid more than Newton, not because that's how much a team would actually offer either player, but because the rules make the bottoms/ceilings the way they are.
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