O Line Help

skins2357 · Post by **skins2357** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:09 pm

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redski ... .html#more

This is a great read about some of the available O Lineman this offseason. With only T WIlliams guarenteed any significant money in 2011, I would imagine the Redskins will be major payers in FA, and as long as they do it the right way, Im all for it.

I like the idea of signing Ryan Harris as a RT. The kid is young (25) and has had success in SHannys system in Denver.

I also would not mind the idea of either signing one of the stud guards available (Mankins, Joseph) or trying to trade for Rachal from SF. Maybe a repairing with Forester wouold help him out.

Either way, I am hoping that T WIlliams is the only returning starter next yr and that we have upgraded the interior line. I could live with Brown coming back, but I think Harris is a much better option IMO.

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:43 pm

I think we'll re-sign Jamaal and maybe Heyer. Dockery is gone obviously. Raback probably stays. On the free agent market I predict we sign only one new starter and we keep working with what we brought in last year and whomever we draft.

skins2357 · Post by **skins2357** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:27 pm

Man I hope your wrong Kazoo. While I would not mind Brown resigning, I would LOVE to get Harris. He is super young, and has experience and success in SHannys ZBS. I dont think he would be too pricey either seeing that he is only a nautral fit in the ZBS, only these teams would be looking for him then.

I hope your wrong about Rabach. He has been the weak link in our WEAK line for 2 yrs now. If we dont sign a FA Center fine, but give Lichensteiger and Monty chances to take that starting spot. I think either of them could do a better job.

Here is my ideal line next year...

LT - WIlliams
LG - Joseph/Mankins
C - Monty/Lichensteiger/FA
RG - Hudson/Wiesnewski (Also plays C)/Puncey (2nd rounder)
RT - Harris

Realistically I think that is possible. Using a 2nd rounder to draft the best available OG and sighning 2 FAs.

langleyparkjoe · Post by **langleyparkjoe** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:29 pm

skins2357 wrote:He is super young

That's what I want, a bunch of young dudes who are strong and eager to get ahead.

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:29 pm

skins2357 wrote:Man I hope your wrong Kazoo. While I would not mind Brown resigning, I would LOVE to get Harris. He is super young, and has experience and success in SHannys ZBS. I dont think he would be too pricey either seeing that he is only a nautral fit in the ZBS, only these teams would be looking for him then.

I hope your wrong about Rabach. He has been the weak link in our WEAK line for 2 yrs now. If we dont sign a FA Center fine, but give Lichensteiger and Monty chances to take that starting spot. I think either of them could do a better job.

Here is my ideal line next year...

LT - WIlliams
LG - Joseph/Mankins
C - Monty/Lichensteiger/FA
RG - Hudson/Wiesnewski (Also plays C)/Puncey (2nd rounder)
RT - Harris

Realistically I think that is possible. Using a 2nd rounder to draft the best available OG and sighning 2 FAs.

We'll see, but we have so many areas to address I don't think it's going to happen that we sign this many OL's. I think the plan is to keep progressing and keep a stream of picks in. I think it's more likely we sign zero new FA starters then two.

skinsfan#33 · Post by **skinsfan#33** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:51 pm

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
skins2357 wrote:Man I hope your wrong Kazoo. While I would not mind Brown resigning, I would LOVE to get Harris. He is super young, and has experience and success in SHannys ZBS. I dont think he would be too pricey either seeing that he is only a nautral fit in the ZBS, only these teams would be looking for him then.

I hope your wrong about Rabach. He has been the weak link in our WEAK line for 2 yrs now. If we dont sign a FA Center fine, but give Lichensteiger and Monty chances to take that starting spot. I think either of them could do a better job.

Here is my ideal line next year...

LT - WIlliams
LG - Joseph/Mankins
C - Monty/Lichensteiger/FA
RG - Hudson/Wiesnewski (Also plays C)/Puncey (2nd rounder)
RT - Harris

Realistically I think that is possible. Using a 2nd rounder to draft the best available OG and sighning 2 FAs.
We'll see, but we have so many areas to address I don't think it's going to happen that we sign this many OL's. I think the plan is to keep progressing and keep a stream of picks in. I think it's more likely we sign zero new FA starters then two.

We have no more pressing need than replacing all three of our starting interior OL. I was a Casey Rabach fan until this year. I thought he was our most consistant OL. Not any more, his performance just dropped off a cliff!

Our first three FA, should be a C & 2 OG. If we sign more than three FA, then I'm ok with them not being or first three as long as all three starters are replaced.

skinsfan#33 · Post by **skinsfan#33** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:51 pm

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
skins2357 wrote:Man I hope your wrong Kazoo. While I would not mind Brown resigning, I would LOVE to get Harris. He is super young, and has experience and success in SHannys ZBS. I dont think he would be too pricey either seeing that he is only a nautral fit in the ZBS, only these teams would be looking for him then.

I hope your wrong about Rabach. He has been the weak link in our WEAK line for 2 yrs now. If we dont sign a FA Center fine, but give Lichensteiger and Monty chances to take that starting spot. I think either of them could do a better job.

Here is my ideal line next year...

LT - WIlliams
LG - Joseph/Mankins
C - Monty/Lichensteiger/FA
RG - Hudson/Wiesnewski (Also plays C)/Puncey (2nd rounder)
RT - Harris

Realistically I think that is possible. Using a 2nd rounder to draft the best available OG and sighning 2 FAs.
We'll see, but we have so many areas to address I don't think it's going to happen that we sign this many OL's. I think the plan is to keep progressing and keep a stream of picks in. I think it's more likely we sign zero new FA starters then two.

We have no more pressing need than replacing all three of our starting interior OL. I was a Casey Rabach fan until this year. I thought he was our most consistant OL. Not any more, his performance just dropped off a cliff!

Our first three FA, should be a C & 2 OG. If we sign more than three FA, then I'm ok with them not being or first three as long as all three starters are replaced.

skinsfan#33 · Post by **skinsfan#33** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:00 pm

One good thing that this squabble over a new CBA will accomplish is that the FA market most likely will be after the draft. That makes so much more sense than having it before the draft!

However, if that is true we won't be able to trade #5 or #92 before or during the draft. No one will be able to trade a player before the new CBA is signed!

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:01 pm

skinsfan#33 wrote:We have no more pressing need than replacing all three of our starting interior OL. I was a Casey Rabach fan until this year. I thought he was our most consistant OL. Not any more, his performance just dropped off a cliff!

Our first three FA, should be a C & 2 OG. If we sign more than three FA, then I'm ok with them not being or first three as long as all three starters are replaced.

I'm not defending our OL, I'm just saying that we aren't likely to go out and sign three high priced free agents and not be able to address anything else. I also think we're more then an OL from actually being good. Our D also seriously needs at least a couple of 3-4 guys. Our receiving corps consists of one receiver who's not getting any younger. One of our starting CB's and our nickle back can't catch. We don't have a real starting FS. Our RB is injury prone. We don't have a clear starting QB at this point. To go out and blow our wad on three FA OL's doesn't make sense. And even if it did to me I seriously doubt Mickey's going to do that.

skinsfan#33 · Post by **skinsfan#33** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:08 pm

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:We have no more pressing need than replacing all three of our starting interior OL. I was a Casey Rabach fan until this year. I thought he was our most consistant OL. Not any more, his performance just dropped off a cliff!

Our first three FA, should be a C & 2 OG. If we sign more than three FA, then I'm ok with them not being or first three as long as all three starters are replaced.
I'm not defending our OL, I'm just saying that we aren't likely to go out and sign three high priced free agents and not be able to address anything else. I also think we're more then an OL from actually being good. Our D also seriously needs at least a couple of 3-4 guys. Our receiving corps consists of one receiver who's not getting any younger. One of our starting CB's and our nickle back can't catch. We don't have a real starting FS. Our RB is injury prone. We don't have a clear starting QB at this point. To go out and blow our wad on three FA OL's doesn't make sense. And even if it did to me I seriously doubt Mickey's going to do that.

First, I'm not talking about going out and getting the highest priced replacement at each spot at guard and center. I'm taking about maybe one PB quality guy and two guys that could start on most teams. Right now we have two guards that wouldn't even make the 53 man roster on many teams and wouldn't start for any team but ours.

Improve the OL and any RB will do, our WR will be adequate, and whomever we get at QB will be better.

I would prefer to draft a starting OG or C or both, but I doubt that will happen. But like I said in my other post this year free agency will probably be after the draft so at least we will know who we have drafted.

skinsfan#33 · Post by **skinsfan#33** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:08 pm

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:We have no more pressing need than replacing all three of our starting interior OL. I was a Casey Rabach fan until this year. I thought he was our most consistant OL. Not any more, his performance just dropped off a cliff!

Our first three FA, should be a C & 2 OG. If we sign more than three FA, then I'm ok with them not being or first three as long as all three starters are replaced.
I'm not defending our OL, I'm just saying that we aren't likely to go out and sign three high priced free agents and not be able to address anything else. I also think we're more then an OL from actually being good. Our D also seriously needs at least a couple of 3-4 guys. Our receiving corps consists of one receiver who's not getting any younger. One of our starting CB's and our nickle back can't catch. We don't have a real starting FS. Our RB is injury prone. We don't have a clear starting QB at this point. To go out and blow our wad on three FA OL's doesn't make sense. And even if it did to me I seriously doubt Mickey's going to do that.

First, I'm not talking about going out and getting the highest priced replacement at each spot at guard and center. I'm taking about maybe one PB quality guy and two guys that could start on most teams. Right now we have two guards that wouldn't even make the 53 man roster on many teams and wouldn't start for any team but ours.

Improve the OL and any RB will do, our WR will be adequate, and whomever we get at QB will be better.

I would prefer to draft a starting OG or C or both, but I doubt that will happen. But like I said in my other post this year free agency will probably be after the draft so at least we will know who we have drafted.

skinsfan#33 · Post by **skinsfan#33** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:08 pm

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:We have no more pressing need than replacing all three of our starting interior OL. I was a Casey Rabach fan until this year. I thought he was our most consistant OL. Not any more, his performance just dropped off a cliff!

Our first three FA, should be a C & 2 OG. If we sign more than three FA, then I'm ok with them not being or first three as long as all three starters are replaced.
I'm not defending our OL, I'm just saying that we aren't likely to go out and sign three high priced free agents and not be able to address anything else. I also think we're more then an OL from actually being good. Our D also seriously needs at least a couple of 3-4 guys. Our receiving corps consists of one receiver who's not getting any younger. One of our starting CB's and our nickle back can't catch. We don't have a real starting FS. Our RB is injury prone. We don't have a clear starting QB at this point. To go out and blow our wad on three FA OL's doesn't make sense. And even if it did to me I seriously doubt Mickey's going to do that.

First, I'm not talking about going out and getting the highest priced replacement at each spot at guard and center. I'm taking about maybe one PB quality guy and two guys that could start on most teams. Right now we have two guards that wouldn't even make the 53 man roster on many teams and wouldn't start for any team but ours.

Improve the OL and any RB will do, our WR will be adequate, and whomever we get at QB will be better.

I would prefer to draft a starting OG or C or both, but I doubt that will happen. But like I said in my other post this year free agency will probably be after the draft so at least we will know who we have drafted.

skinsfan#33 · Post by **skinsfan#33** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:09 pm

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:We have no more pressing need than replacing all three of our starting interior OL. I was a Casey Rabach fan until this year. I thought he was our most consistant OL. Not any more, his performance just dropped off a cliff!

Our first three FA, should be a C & 2 OG. If we sign more than three FA, then I'm ok with them not being or first three as long as all three starters are replaced.
I'm not defending our OL, I'm just saying that we aren't likely to go out and sign three high priced free agents and not be able to address anything else. I also think we're more then an OL from actually being good. Our D also seriously needs at least a couple of 3-4 guys. Our receiving corps consists of one receiver who's not getting any younger. One of our starting CB's and our nickle back can't catch. We don't have a real starting FS. Our RB is injury prone. We don't have a clear starting QB at this point. To go out and blow our wad on three FA OL's doesn't make sense. And even if it did to me I seriously doubt Mickey's going to do that.

First, I'm not talking about going out and getting the highest priced replacement at each spot at guard and center. I'm taking about maybe one PB quality guy and two guys that could start on most teams. Right now we have two guards that wouldn't even make the 53 man roster on many teams and wouldn't start for any team but ours.

Improve the OL and any RB will do, our WR will be adequate, and whomever we get at QB will be better.

I would prefer to draft a starting OG or C or both, but I doubt that will happen. But like I said in my other post this year free agency will probably be after the draft so at least we will know who we have drafted.

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:49 pm

skinsfan#33 wrote:First, I'm not talking about going out and getting the highest priced replacement at each spot at guard and center. I'm taking about maybe one PB quality guy and two guys that could start on most teams

That's actually a huge thing. Teams lock up their best players. Either the player has no loyalty and will just take the highest offer, they have personal issues or they overrate their worth. And if they are any good we'll be bidding against serious competion, everyone needs starting linemen and you threw a PBer in there. I totally want to improve the line like you and I understand the impact it has, but I think you way underestimate the pure cost of signing one PB and two starting quality OL's in one offseason and how few there are for the teams who need them. And everyone wants the younger ones too. It's not like we have some sort of secret success formula.

Deadskins · Post by **Deadskins** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:21 pm

skinsfan#33 wrote:One good thing that this squabble over a new CBA will accomplish is that the FA market most likely will be after the draft. That makes so much more sense than having it before the draft!

However, if that is true we won't be able to trade #5 or #92 before or during the draft. No one will be able to trade a player before the new CBA is signed!

I can understand how the CBA would affect the FA market, but I don't understand why you think it will affect the trade market. Trades, are for draft picks, or players, and the team assumes the current contracts, so the CBA would have no affect on trades that I can see.

Deadskins · Post by **Deadskins** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:23 pm

KazooSkinsFan wrote:Our receiving corps consists of one receiver who's not getting any younger.

Armstrong is showing promise. It usually takes a couple of years before a WR really breaks out, so we are looking pretty good there.

Deadskins · Post by **Deadskins** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:26 pm

skinsfan#33 wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:We have no more pressing need than replacing all three of our starting interior OL. I was a Casey Rabach fan until this year. I thought he was our most consistant OL. Not any more, his performance just dropped off a cliff!

Our first three FA, should be a C & 2 OG. If we sign more than three FA, then I'm ok with them not being or first three as long as all three starters are replaced.
I'm not defending our OL, I'm just saying that we aren't likely to go out and sign three high priced free agents and not be able to address anything else. I also think we're more then an OL from actually being good. Our D also seriously needs at least a couple of 3-4 guys. Our receiving corps consists of one receiver who's not getting any younger. One of our starting CB's and our nickle back can't catch. We don't have a real starting FS. Our RB is injury prone. We don't have a clear starting QB at this point. To go out and blow our wad on three FA OL's doesn't make sense. And even if it did to me I seriously doubt Mickey's going to do that.
First, I'm not talking about going out and getting the highest priced replacement at each spot at guard and center. I'm taking about maybe one PB quality guy and two guys that could start on most teams. Right now we have two guards that wouldn't even make the 53 man roster on many teams and wouldn't start for any team but ours.

Improve the OL and any RB will do, our WR will be adequate, and whomever we get at QB will be better.

I would prefer to draft a starting OG or C or both, but I doubt that will happen. But like I said in my other post this year free agency will probably be after the draft so at least we will know who we have drafted.

Wow! a quadruple, that might be a record.

Don't forget Mike Williams will be back in the mix next year at RG.

yupchagee · Post by **yupchagee** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:59 pm

Deadskins wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote: I'm not defending our OL, I'm just saying that we aren't likely to go out and sign three high priced free agents and not be able to address anything else. I also think we're more then an OL from actually being good. Our D also seriously needs at least a couple of 3-4 guys. Our receiving corps consists of one receiver who's not getting any younger. One of our starting CB's and our nickle back can't catch. We don't have a real starting FS. Our RB is injury prone. We don't have a clear starting QB at this point. To go out and blow our wad on three FA OL's doesn't make sense. And even if it did to me I seriously doubt Mickey's going to do that.
First, I'm not talking about going out and getting the highest priced replacement at each spot at guard and center. I'm taking about maybe one PB quality guy and two guys that could start on most teams. Right now we have two guards that wouldn't even make the 53 man roster on many teams and wouldn't start for any team but ours.

Improve the OL and any RB will do, our WR will be adequate, and whomever we get at QB will be better.

I would prefer to draft a starting OG or C or both, but I doubt that will happen. But like I said in my other post this year free agency will probably be after the draft so at least we will know who we have drafted.
Wow! a quadruple, that might be a record.

Don't forget Mike Williams will be back in the mix next year at RG.

I don't think Big Mike fits ZBS any better than DD does.

Deadskins · Post by **Deadskins** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:10 pm

yupchagee wrote:
Deadskins wrote:Don't forget Mike Williams will be back in the mix next year at RG.

I don't think Big Mike fits ZBS any better than DD does.

I think he would have started this season had he not had the blood clot. But we'll see.

Scottskins · Post by **Scottskins** » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:50 am

I'm totally in favor of improving both the offensive lines before we worry about anything else. It's all about the trenches. Rex can be a fine QB for us for 2 years if he is protected. A 3-4 defense doesn't work without a good NT. We don't have one. We need Nick Fairley. If we can pull off the rumored trade with Arizona(swap picks plus McNabb) we might be able to get him. The good thing about using the ZBS, is that the best players for that system don't fit any other system. They aren't in demand as much as your standard stud Olineman. As long as we work on improving the lines, I will be happy!

skins2357 · Post by **skins2357** » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:06 am

Where did you hear that rumor? Not sure what I would think about it, as I would rather get a mid pick and add depth for McNabb. Maybe they throw in a 5th too, then I would be alright with that.

Fairley is a beast your right, but I see him more like a Ngata of Bmore in the NFL. He does not have the shear mass to play NT every down. Now in pass rushing situations like nickel then yea I could see him rushing from NT, but I dont know if he playes there every down. If you look at Ngata, he is listed sometimes as a NT, but he only plays there 10 or so snaps. He is usually lined up as a DE. Dont get me wrong, Fairley will a good one though.

I think Ryan Harris could be had a little less expensive then others seeing that he is suited for the ZBS and not all teams run it. Also, I would imagine we have the inside track to him from his days with Shanny.

Rachal would need to be traded for, so that would not be a FA signing. He has 1 year left on his rookie deal so he would need to be extended, but that could be approached later. I was thinking McNabb for Rachal and a 5th?

Getting 1 more OG would be my next move. Kazoo, your right we may have to pay big for it in FA so thats why I could see up using our 2nd round pick to get a guy like Wiesnewski (G/C), Hudson or Pouncey.

Kazoo, you argued that it would be hard to sign 3 starting lineman in free agency and you are right, but in this idea we are only signing 1. Just an idea to argue about...

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:02 pm

Deadskins wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:Our receiving corps consists of one receiver who's not getting any younger.
Armstrong is showing promise. It usually takes a couple of years before a WR really breaks out, so we are looking pretty good there.

Agreed, but I wouldn't have until later in the season. I'm not ready to chalk him up as a success though or count him as a top 2 receiver

riggofan · Post by **riggofan** » Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:24 pm

I'm still kind of holding out hope for Malcolm Kelly!

skinsfan#33 · Post by **skinsfan#33** » Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:40 pm

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:Our receiving corps consists of one receiver who's not getting any younger.
Armstrong is showing promise. It usually takes a couple of years before a WR really breaks out, so we are looking pretty good there.
Agreed, but I wouldn't have until later in the season. I'm not ready to chalk him up as a success though or count him as a top 2 receiver

That is funny how perception plays on people.
AAA and Desean Jackson had very similar stats, but one is a probowler and the other still needs to improve to show he is a legit starting WR!

If someone asked me to bet on who might have a year next year like B Lloyd had this year; BL or AAA, I would put money on AAA and not BL.

If we get or OL to the level of an average run blocking OL and an above average pass blocking OL, then I think AAA can exceed what Jackson did this year. Remember he was very close as it was.

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:13 pm

skinsfan#33 wrote:That is funny how perception plays on people.
AAA and Desean Jackson had very similar stats, but one is a probowler and the other still needs to improve to show he is a legit starting WR!

If someone asked me to bet on who might have a year next year like B Lloyd had this year; BL or AAA, I would put money on AAA and not BL.

If we get or OL to the level of an average run blocking OL and an above average pass blocking OL, then I think AAA can exceed what Jackson did this year. Remember he was very close as it was.

I'm not dissing AA, but he was an inconsistent contributor. He made some great plays, but he had some ugly, ugly drops too. Moss is our only proven WR at this point. I agree Armstrong really started to make strides late in the year. I'm not going by stats, I'm going by how I saw him play. Promise, yes. Write him in as a top two receiver? Not yet.