Reason for cautious optimism for Redskins' fans

[SkinsJock]

I'm still hoping these guys can get it done

http://www.cbssports.com/cbssports/stor ... t-501-odds

we are not going to be there soon but we are headed in the right direction

I doubt we're bottom of the NFC East at the end of 2012

[Redskin in Canada]

Shanahan explained what he wants in a quarterback, and Campbell would do well to listen up.

"I need a quarterback, No. 1, to be accurate, and No. 2, to be passionate about the game, about the preparation, the study and the execution," said Shanahan. "I've been around a lot of leaders and they do it different ways -- Joe Montana, Steve Young and John Elway. But they all had a deep desire to be the best."

Question: Accurate? Answer: Nope.
Question: Passionate? Answer: Nope.
Question: Leader? Answer: Nope.

Case closed.

I believe that there are higher priorities than QB though (OL, OL, OL, ... OL) and JC might stick around for next year. But JC is not Shanhan's QB.

[Bob 0119]

Shanahan explained what he wants in a quarterback, and Campbell would do well to listen up.

"I need a quarterback, No. 1, to be accurate, and No. 2, to be passionate about the game, about the preparation, the study and the execution," said Shanahan. "I've been around a lot of leaders and they do it different ways -- Joe Montana, Steve Young and John Elway. But they all had a deep desire to be the best."

Question: Accurate? Answer: Nope.
Question: Passionate? Answer: Nope.
Question: Leader? Answer: Nope.

Case closed.

I believe that there are higher priorities than QB though (OL, OL, OL, ... OL) and JC might stick around for next year. But JC is not Shanhan's QB.

I agree, I don't think Campbell will be around long, but I think he'll be here next year even if Shanahan drafts a QB. I think Shanahan will probably surprise everyone (well, not everyone) though and go for a runningback first overall, and then shoot in for offensive linemen.

I don't expect he'll draft more than two O-linemen; three at the most. We could also use some help in the secondary. It may be easier to find O-linemen in FA than it would be corners and safeties.

WR is another concern area. I wouldn't be sorry to see Moss and El go if we can get picks for them. I'm sure it wouldn't be much, but if we can get a fourth or better for either of them, I think it might be time to ship 'em.

[brad7686]

Shanahan explained what he wants in a quarterback, and Campbell would do well to listen up.

"I need a quarterback, No. 1, to be accurate, and No. 2, to be passionate about the game, about the preparation, the study and the execution," said Shanahan. "I've been around a lot of leaders and they do it different ways -- Joe Montana, Steve Young and John Elway. But they all had a deep desire to be the best."

Question: Accurate? Answer: Nope.
Question: Passionate? Answer: Nope.
Question: Leader? Answer: Nope.

Case closed.

I believe that there are higher priorities than QB though (OL, OL, OL, ... OL) and JC might stick around for next year. But JC is not Shanhan's QB.

Technically, he is accurate. That's one of the positives along with occasional mobility and arm strength. Leadership/ awareness/ intangibles I agree are things we have not seen yet.

[Countertrey]

Technically, he is accurate. That's one of the positives along with occasional mobility and arm strength. Leadership/ awareness/ intangibles I agree are things we have not seen yet.

Technically?

Let's add reality to the equation. Exactly how many times, over the last three season, have we seen Campbell hit a running receiver in stride?

Hello? I think it averages 1 a year.

How many times have we seen wide open receivers have to stop, come back for the ball... be led out of bounds... How many times have we seen sure touchdowns turn into 10-15 yard gains because the receiver had to adjust to a poor throw?

Yeah, the stats say he's accurate... but that's just not the whole story. The fans who have watched every game know the truth... he's close, but not close enough. He can't lead a receiver. He just can't.


On the other hand, Todd Collins got in for 2 pass plays this past season... and on both, hit running receivers in stride... one of which resulted in a long touchdown.


Hmmmmmmmm....... that's just messed up.

[brad7686]

Technically, he is accurate. That's one of the positives along with occasional mobility and arm strength. Leadership/ awareness/ intangibles I agree are things we have not seen yet.

Technically?

Let's add reality to the equation. Exactly how many times, over the last three season, have we seen Campbell hit a running receiver in stride?

Hello? I think it averages 1 a year.

How many times have we seen wide open receivers have to stop, come back for the ball... be led out of bounds... How many times have we seen sure touchdowns turn into 10-15 yard gains because the receiver had to adjust to a poor throw?

Yeah, the stats say he's accurate... but that's just not the whole story. The fans who have watched every game know the truth... he's close, but not close enough. He can't lead a receiver. He just can't.


On the other hand, Todd Collins got in for 2 pass plays this past season... and on both, hit running receivers in stride... one of which resulted in a long touchdown.


Hmmmmmmmm....... that's just messed up.

Well, if he is inaccurate then there are 22 other starting qb's in the league that are less accurate, as he was 10th in completion percentage. He was also 3rd in the nation in completion percentage the year he was drafted. People who dislike Campbell seem to think every pass in the NFL by other qb's are completed. The stats don't agree with that unless you're talking about Brees or Manning. Is Sam Bradford Drew Brees? No.

Granted, you could say he had more short patterns than a lot of qb's because of the line, but if he had more time he would have more yards, and more production, and it would be harder to complain about that.

[Redskin in Canada]

Well, if he is inaccurate then there are 22 other starting qb's in the league that are less accurate, as he was 10th in completion percentage. He was also 3rd in the nation in completion percentage the year he was drafted.

There is a book entitled: How to lie with statistics.

Those stats are deceiving. He realeases slowly, inaccurately and the ball often "sails" on him. CT's point about failing to hit a receiver in stride is true. Many of those receptions that you quote, did not go for long after the catch because the receiver had to adjust.

People who dislike Campbell seem to think every pass in the NFL by other qb's are completed. The stats don't agree with that unless you're talking about Brees or Manning. Is Sam Bradford Drew Brees? No.

I actually like Jason Campbell, the person, A LOT. Like CT, I would have wanted nothing but for him to succeed.

But he just does not have the qualities required by Shanahan as quoted in the article above. Nothing personal, just the facts.

And that dragon ...

[brad7686]

Well, if he is inaccurate then there are 22 other starting qb's in the league that are less accurate, as he was 10th in completion percentage. He was also 3rd in the nation in completion percentage the year he was drafted.

There is a book entitled: How to lie with statistics.

Those stats are deceiving. He realeases slowly, inaccurately and the ball often "sails" on him. CT's point about failing to hit a receiver in stride is true. Many of those receptions that you quote, did not go for long after the catch because the receiver had to adjust.

People who dislike Campbell seem to think every pass in the NFL by other qb's are completed. The stats don't agree with that unless you're talking about Brees or Manning. Is Sam Bradford Drew Brees? No.

I actually like Jason Campbell, the person, A LOT. Like CT, I would have wanted nothing but for him to succeed.

But he just does not have the qualities required by Shanahan as quoted in the article above. Nothing personal, just the facts.

And that dragon ...

Again, not every qb hits their receivers in stride every play either. Brees and Manning do a pretty good job. Look at guys like Rivers and Rodgers. The Chargers put guys that are 6 foot 5 out there with hands like a vice grip and rivers just throws the ball up. That's what makes him look so good. Same thing with Rodgers. Watch Greg Jennings and Donald Driver sometime. Then watch Santana Moss try and catch a pass. Again, I'm not saying he's a great qb, but somebody, I think it was you, said he was inaccurate and thats just not true and stats have always backed that up. He obviously has his flaws, but you have to give credit where it is due in certain instances.

[spenser]

Well, if he is inaccurate then there are 22 other starting qb's in the league that are less accurate, as he was 10th in completion percentage. He was also 3rd in the nation in completion percentage the year he was drafted.

There is a book entitled: How to lie with statistics.

Those stats are deceiving. He realeases slowly, inaccurately and the ball often "sails" on him. CT's point about failing to hit a receiver in stride is true. Many of those receptions that you quote, did not go for long after the catch because the receiver had to adjust.

People who dislike Campbell seem to think every pass in the NFL by other qb's are completed. The stats don't agree with that unless you're talking about Brees or Manning. Is Sam Bradford Drew Brees? No.

I actually like Jason Campbell, the person, A LOT. Like CT, I would have wanted nothing but for him to succeed.

But he just does not have the qualities required by Shanahan as quoted in the article above. Nothing personal, just the facts.

And that dragon ...

Again, not every qb hits their receivers in stride every play either. Brees and Manning do a pretty good job. Look at guys like Rivers and Rodgers. The Chargers put guys that are 6 foot 5 out there with hands like a vice grip and rivers just throws the ball up. That's what makes him look so good. Same thing with Rodgers. Watch Greg Jennings and Donald Driver sometime. Then watch Santana Moss try and catch a pass. Again, I'm not saying he's a great qb, but somebody, I think it was you, said he was inaccurate and thats just not true and stats have always backed that up. He obviously has his flaws, but you have to give credit where it is due in certain instances.

Dude, the fact that you are so adamantly defending what are clearly and undeniably serious flaws in JC's game, is laughable. The fact that the stats show JC was above average, is in my opinion a testament to our WR's for making NUMEROUS leaping, twisting, over the shoulder, slowdown/comeback receptions. If you can truly tell me that JC is an accurate passer, then we are watching a different game. I honestly don't even remember ONE time when JC hit a WR in stride on a simple SLANT pattern, A staple of the WC offense. I see Arron Rodgers hit like.. 4 slants a GAME that go for big yards. You can bend statistics to fit almost any argument, but ill stick with the eyeball test and believe what I actually SEE.

[Countertrey]

Again, not every qb hits their receivers in stride every play either.

Absolutely true... but, more than once or twice a year would be nice. The reason I threw in the comment about Todd Collins... whom, I believe, threw only 2 passes this year, and in each of them hit the receiver in stride... was to make just that point.

A completion is a completion, as far as the "stats" are concerned. The stats don't care if 95% of the time, the receiver had to stop and let the ball catch up...

and, by the way, I have been a huge fan of Jason's... I badly wanted him to be it. I badly wanted him to shut up the doubters... but the facts are the facts. He is not a warrior. He is but a technician, not an engineer. He has many skills... but none of them are complete. He's not quite accurate enough. He's not quite quick enough on his reads. He's not quite confident enough to know when to give up on a play. He's not quite consistent enough to recognize the colapsing pocket and to step up into it.

He's just not quite.

[brad7686]

Well, if he is inaccurate then there are 22 other starting qb's in the league that are less accurate, as he was 10th in completion percentage. He was also 3rd in the nation in completion percentage the year he was drafted.

There is a book entitled: How to lie with statistics.

Those stats are deceiving. He realeases slowly, inaccurately and the ball often "sails" on him. CT's point about failing to hit a receiver in stride is true. Many of those receptions that you quote, did not go for long after the catch because the receiver had to adjust.

People who dislike Campbell seem to think every pass in the NFL by other qb's are completed. The stats don't agree with that unless you're talking about Brees or Manning. Is Sam Bradford Drew Brees? No.

I actually like Jason Campbell, the person, A LOT. Like CT, I would have wanted nothing but for him to succeed.

But he just does not have the qualities required by Shanahan as quoted in the article above. Nothing personal, just the facts.

And that dragon ...

Again, not every qb hits their receivers in stride every play either. Brees and Manning do a pretty good job. Look at guys like Rivers and Rodgers. The Chargers put guys that are 6 foot 5 out there with hands like a vice grip and rivers just throws the ball up. That's what makes him look so good. Same thing with Rodgers. Watch Greg Jennings and Donald Driver sometime. Then watch Santana Moss try and catch a pass. Again, I'm not saying he's a great qb, but somebody, I think it was you, said he was inaccurate and thats just not true and stats have always backed that up. He obviously has his flaws, but you have to give credit where it is due in certain instances.

Dude, the fact that you are so adamantly defending what are clearly and undeniably serious flaws in JC's game, is laughable. The fact that the stats show JC was above average, is in my opinion a testament to our WR's for making NUMEROUS leaping, twisting, over the shoulder, slowdown/comeback receptions. If you can truly tell me that JC is an accurate passer, then we are watching a different game. I honestly don't even remember ONE time when JC hit a WR in stride on a simple SLANT pattern, A staple of the WC offense. I see Arron Rodgers hit like.. 4 slants a GAME that go for big yards. You can bend statistics to fit almost any argument, but ill stick with the eyeball test and believe what I actually SEE.

If you think me defending JC's accuracy is a ridiculous statement, then you don't realize what you said. You said our receivers make tough, twisting catches. That is extremely inaccurate. They have the worst hands in the league, IMO, and I'm pretty sure two years ago they led the league in drops.

[brad7686]

Again, not every qb hits their receivers in stride every play either.

Absolutely true... but, more than once or twice a year would be nice. The reason I threw in the comment about Todd Collins... whom, I believe, threw only 2 passes this year, and in each of them hit the receiver in stride... was to make just that point.

A completion is a completion, as far as the "stats" are concerned. The stats don't care if 95% of the time, the receiver had to stop and let the ball catch up...

Again, somebody else giving our receivers credit. I almost think me defending JC is ridiculous because he isn't that good. But to think some people would actually try to use the argument that our receivers make JC look good just baffles me. Are we watching the same short, stone-handed guys? Apparently not.

[Countertrey]

Not giving the receivers credit. I have seen them wide open, behind the defense on multiple occasions. I have seen Jason find them, throw the ball... behind them... they have to wait. They catch the ball and are immediately tackled, because they had to slow down. The catches are nothing spectacular... but they would have been touchdowns had they been hit in stride.

You have yet to answer the question... How many times in the last 3 years has Campbell hit a receiver in stride? Please don't insult my intelligence by pretending that it's not an important or relevant question. The only one I can recall from this past season was a beautiful deep strike to Malcolm Kelly that he stretched out. I don't remember any others.

[brad7686]

You have yet to answer the question... How many times in the last 3 years has Campbell hit a receiver in stride?

I don't know I don't keep an f'n counter, but its not as bad as you think i'm sure. The accuracy number certainly isn't padded by our receivers. Maybe by the short routes we run due to our line. But it DEFINITELY has nothing to do with our receivers making tough catches. You want to watch tough catches, watch Greg Jennings, Antonio Gates, Vincent Jackson, Marques Colston, Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson, Ochocinco. Nobody on the redskins aside from the TE's. Why do you think it is our TE's get so many catches? They are the only ones with any hands!

[KazooSkinsFan]

You have yet to answer the question... How many times in the last 3 years has Campbell hit a receiver in stride?

Are you kidding? All the freaking time!

In the dirt at their feet counts, right?

I may have to reconsider this answer...

[spenser]

Well, if he is inaccurate then there are 22 other starting qb's in the league that are less accurate, as he was 10th in completion percentage. He was also 3rd in the nation in completion percentage the year he was drafted.

There is a book entitled: How to lie with statistics.

Those stats are deceiving. He realeases slowly, inaccurately and the ball often "sails" on him. CT's point about failing to hit a receiver in stride is true. Many of those receptions that you quote, did not go for long after the catch because the receiver had to adjust.

People who dislike Campbell seem to think every pass in the NFL by other qb's are completed. The stats don't agree with that unless you're talking about Brees or Manning. Is Sam Bradford Drew Brees? No.

I actually like Jason Campbell, the person, A LOT. Like CT, I would have wanted nothing but for him to succeed.

But he just does not have the qualities required by Shanahan as quoted in the article above. Nothing personal, just the facts.

And that dragon ...

Again, not every qb hits their receivers in stride every play either. Brees and Manning do a pretty good job. Look at guys like Rivers and Rodgers. The Chargers put guys that are 6 foot 5 out there with hands like a vice grip and rivers just throws the ball up. That's what makes him look so good. Same thing with Rodgers. Watch Greg Jennings and Donald Driver sometime. Then watch Santana Moss try and catch a pass. Again, I'm not saying he's a great qb, but somebody, I think it was you, said he was inaccurate and thats just not true and stats have always backed that up. He obviously has his flaws, but you have to give credit where it is due in certain instances.

Dude, the fact that you are so adamantly defending what are clearly and undeniably serious flaws in JC's game, is laughable. The fact that the stats show JC was above average, is in my opinion a testament to our WR's for making NUMEROUS leaping, twisting, over the shoulder, slowdown/comeback receptions. If you can truly tell me that JC is an accurate passer, then we are watching a different game. I honestly don't even remember ONE time when JC hit a WR in stride on a simple SLANT pattern, A staple of the WC offense. I see Arron Rodgers hit like.. 4 slants a GAME that go for big yards. You can bend statistics to fit almost any argument, but ill stick with the eyeball test and believe what I actually SEE.

If you think me defending JC's accuracy is a ridiculous statement, then you don't realize what you said. You said our receivers make tough, twisting catches. That is extremely inaccurate. They have the worst hands in the league, IMO, and I'm pretty sure two years ago they led the league in drops.

Well.. by no means am i saying our WR's are great, or have great hands. But ive seen PLENY of times that Santana has Lept up High to catch another errent JC pass. Multiple times have I seen ARE reach Back to catch a pass that was to his back shoulder on slants and routes over the middle. My only point was that im surprised that "statistically" JC was in the top tier in completions. Sure.. if they were counting Seagulls, Dirt, and ticket holders row 2 through 13 as active recievers.. then it would make more sense. Im just saying... JC has accuracy issues, reguardless of what the stats say. But again, we can agree to disagree. I just honestly dont remember many WR's hit in stride over the last few years.

[KazooSkinsFan]

You have yet to answer the question... How many times in the last 3 years has Campbell hit a receiver in stride?

I don't know I don't keep an f'n counter, but its not as bad as you think i'm sure. The accuracy number certainly isn't padded by our receivers. Maybe by the short routes we run due to our line. But it DEFINITELY has nothing to do with our receivers making tough catches. You want to watch tough catches, watch Greg Jennings, Antonio Gates, Vincent Jackson, Marques Colston, Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson, Ochocinco. Nobody on the redskins aside from the TE's. Why do you think it is our TE's get so many catches? They are the only ones with any hands!

I have to agree with you the receivers haven't helped him out much. But the throws in the feet, behind people and over their heads are his most frequent issue by far.

[brad7686]

I'm going to get out of this thread, It's one thing to disagree about JC, we all do. But I will be damned if I sit here and listen to people praise the hands of our receivers. That is just absolute bedlam. They recently led the league in drops and you guys want to pretend they are Swann and Stallworth.

[KazooSkinsFan]

There is a book entitled: How to lie with statistics

There's also a saying. There are liars, dirty liars and there are statisticians. Though it's not the statistics that lie, it's the use of them that can be intentionally or ineptly misleading.

[KazooSkinsFan]

I'm going to get out of this thread, It's one thing to disagree about JC, we all do. But I will be damned if I sit here and listen to people praise the hands of our receivers. That is just absolute bedlam. They recently led the league in drops and you guys want to pretend they are Swann and Stallworth.

I've read the thread and no one "praise(d) the hands of our receivers." So if you want out, just say so and don't pass it off on a lame misstatement of what anyone said.

[brad7686]

I'm going to get out of this thread, It's one thing to disagree about JC, we all do. But I will be damned if I sit here and listen to people praise the hands of our receivers. That is just absolute bedlam. They recently led the league in drops and you guys want to pretend they are Swann and Stallworth.

I've read the thread and no one "praise(d) the hands of our receivers." So if you want out, just say so and don't pass it off on a lame misstatement of what anyone said.

I heard tough, twisting catches, and for our receivers, that's praise.

[spenser]

I'm going to get out of this thread, It's one thing to disagree about JC, we all do. But I will be damned if I sit here and listen to people praise the hands of our receivers. That is just absolute bedlam. They recently led the league in drops and you guys want to pretend they are Swann and Stallworth.

Buh Bye. Its probably a good thing, because seriously you lose more credibility with each post. I don't think anyone here is saying our WR's are elite, so that is totally misconstrued. Greg Jennings... making tough catches???? Dude I watched every packer game this season, and yes he is infinitely better than our WR's, but their QB consistently puts the ball right on the numbers. Not hard to make big receptions when you have your man beat and the QB can put it in the right spot...

[KazooSkinsFan]

I'm going to get out of this thread, It's one thing to disagree about JC, we all do. But I will be damned if I sit here and listen to people praise the hands of our receivers. That is just absolute bedlam. They recently led the league in drops and you guys want to pretend they are Swann and Stallworth.

I've read the thread and no one "praise(d) the hands of our receivers." So if you want out, just say so and don't pass it off on a lame misstatement of what anyone said.

I heard tough, twisting catches, and for our receivers, that's praise.

You're misreading the point of those comments. They are saying they have to twist and adjust because of the poor throws. The point is that the throws are poor, not that they're doing a great job of adjusting and twisting. Again, if you want out, fine, but this is a lame excuse. Just say so.

[Countertrey]

I heard tough, twisting catches, and for our receivers, that's praise.

[Paralis]

What's more puzzling is that we can all agree that the Skins completed a higher percentage of their passes than most teams last year. We can agree because there are nice sortable tables on nfl.com and PFR that say so.

Yet despite that, some posters in this thread say that Campbell is inaccurate and that the WRs didn't make great catches.

And since all there is to throwing and catching is... throwing and catching, I'd love to hear the x-factor that made the Skins' offense go. Stickum?