The Season was lost when....

BurgundyandGoldfaith · Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:55 am

It's hard as a fan to, as Thom Loverro writes, hate something you love. These past 3 games have given hope while clouding the future on this uncertain franchise. When I think of this season's debacle and everything at stake in 09', I think back to last year when late in games we shut down offensively. And while the defense made the game close, I distinctly remember myself frustrated with the inability to begin offensive plays with a chance to succeed.

We are not far removed from the embarrassing Jon Jansen era and three years ago was the time to fix this offensive line. With Jim Zorn's career on the line, with Jason Cambell's future left to one final fair shot at a contract, with all the uncertainty surrounding this team Vinny Cerrato did not address the line.

As Zorn would say, Vinny gave them a "No Chance" play. Play for your futures, just don't expect to be able to pass or run in real live NFL games.

Somewhere in the middle of the past couple of seasons this season was lost for me. I just didn't know it yet.

When was the season lost for you?

DEHog · Post by **DEHog** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:10 am

Sorry not a valid question...Vinny not the one...The question should read did Dan Snyder give them a fair shot.

El Mexican · Post by **El Mexican** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:11 am

The season was lost when Joe Gibbs left the team and the FO decided to go with the WCO with basically the same players.

I never understood why move from a power-running gameplan to a dink and dunk offense with no real difference in your personel.

I suposse it's a decision based on money and making this "product" different from last year. Sorry but that sucks, Dan.

Really, it took Gibbs ultrahuman strength to lead this group of players to the playoffs in 2007. The probability of a dropoff after that was just too huge.

Oh, and by the way, I hate the WCO. The system had success 20 years ago. I just can't stomach the thought of replicating other team's success. These are the Washington Redskins, not the Seattle Seahawks 2.0 Lite we are talking about.

DEHog · Post by **DEHog** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:59 am

I think the Skins not addressing the OLine in the off-season had alot to do with the failures on the field this season

Hoss · Post by **Hoss** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:30 am

DEHog wrote:I think the Skins not addressing the OLine in the off-season had alot to do with the failures on the field this season

Agreed 100%

Redskin in Canada · Post by **Redskin in Canada** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:10 pm

It is not about "the hidden dragon" Campbell.
It is not about "medium" Zorn.
It is not about Portis, or Samuels, ...
It is not about injuries to Cool

ey ...
It is not about "hands of stone" Rogers ...
It isnot about "bite and bite again" Landry ...
It is not about "crunch time" Suishy ...
It is not about a dismal OL ...
It is not about injury-prone Betts ...

Sure, all of the above combined items, do not help. But this is really about:

a dysfuntional Front Office and the lack of a competent GM.

Danny has proven time and time again that it is HIS way or no way. It is about HIS decisions regardless of whether they fail and fail again. It is about HIM.

Bad leadership = bad results ALWAYS

You can argue all you want about a player here or a player there, a coach here or a coach there. This is NOT a Team. It is an amorphous collection of tuitti-fruti. A collection of players without a team spirit. A team without leadership in the HC or the QB.

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:01 pm

There is no question that we have no chance for having a competitive product on the field if the people in charge of selecting the chef, the chef's assistants and the ingredients do not know what they are doing

what is disapointing is that some fans here take it that anyone that objects to fans like me pointing out that we have no chance for having a competitive team while these guys are in charge of who coaches and plays for this franchise are in some way not 'supporting' the Redskins
everyone is entitled to support the team in their own way but those 'fans' like Skins Freak (where is that objectionable little man anyway?) & others get all upset at those of us that are just trying to show why this franchise has no hope for having a competitive team are just showing that they do not have a clue about what is happening here :roll:

the only reason this franchise will not be able to put a competitive team on the field is that Snyder is not able to get that done - until he finds someone to put in charge of who coaches and who plays here we have no chance - I don't care if we add Shanahan, Cowher or whoever, plus 5 pro bowl offensive linemen, we will not have a competitve product on the field while Snyder is making the decisions on who coaches and who plays - it is that simple and we do not have to support that and actually should actively show our disapointment in any way we can

we do not need great coaching or great players we only need a team

so if we do not make that change - I will continue to voice my disapointment and try to encourage anyone & everyone to do whatever they want to make Snyder get it

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:07 pm

DEHog wrote:Sorry not a valid question...Vinny's not the one...The question should read - did Dan Snyder give them a fair shot.

exactly

PMG12569 · Post by **PMG12569** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:27 pm

Wrong question...It should ask "Did Vinny give Zorn and Campbell everything they needed to be able to succeed at a high or an above average level?' And my answer to that is no, with a molasses slow old rb and one of the worst o-lines in the league.

BurgundyandGoldfaith · Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:35 pm

In the past two seasons Vinny was the man in charge of drafting/personell. He is to blame for no O-line, as he is to be credited for the 2nd rounders. If Dan gave him the power, Vinny ruined the team.

Pablo · Post by **Pablo** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:45 pm

I agree with a lot said here. However, I and nobody thought we would get so many injuries, specially at key positions like LT. I believe we had a playoff team until injuries ruined our season. In th offseason Zorn realized Portis was not going to be the Portis from last year..last year Portis took a beating!!! and just like other RBs he needs this year to recover and also with the peassure from fans and the media and the FO to develope and use our 2nd round picks Zorn worked on different schemes of offense relying on pass protection. Oviously that plan went out the window when Smauels got injuried and then Thomas as well and Portis not being able to run the ball because of his Injuries and the Oline not creating holes. So Zorn was not able to adjust I believe because of his inexperience and our offense looked awfull!!!
So Sherm Lewis comes in the picture and with some help on the Oline we start clicking. It wasnt Zorns fault or the front office fault to me. We did not have great detph but come on!! many other teams are the same and in the draft there was not Oline players to draft..plus we already had Reinhart as a guard waiting to prove himself... I would like anybody to name a team that has a probowler at left tackle like Samuels and a back up like Jones behind him.... NO TEAM HAS IT!!!

Redskin in Canada · Post by **Redskin in Canada** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:51 pm

Pablo wrote:I would like anybody to name a team that has a probowler at left tackle like Samuels and a back up like Jones behind him.... NO TEAM HAS IT!!!

No team does, including the Redskins.

Clinton Portis and Chris Samuels are most likely done at wearing burgundy and gold. They may not come back at all. :cry:

Pablo · Post by **Pablo** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:00 pm

I strongly believe Portis will be back because he still has gas in his tank..remember when Lewis left Baltimore and many thought he was done because of his hard running ! wrong!, he came back and playd good for Cleveland...he just needed to heal. POrtins will be back and stronger.. I say he comes back. Samuels might not be back for health reasons not because he does not have it anymore, but Jones can accupy that position for a couple of years so we will be fine.

DEHog · Post by **DEHog** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:03 pm

Redskin in Canada wrote:
Pablo wrote:I would like anybody to name a team that has a probowler at left tackle like Samuels and a back up like Jones behind him.... NO TEAM HAS IT!!!
No team does, including the Redskins.

Clinton Portis and Chris Samuels are most likely done at wearing burgundy and gold. They may not come back at all.

Well we really can't anwser we don't know what team is going to sign a T who is currently not playing :wink:

aswas71788 · Post by **aswas71788** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:25 pm

Pablo wrote:I strongly believe Portis will be back because he still has gas in his tank..remember when Lewis left Baltimore and many thought he was done because of his hard running ! wrong!, he came back and playd good for Cleveland...he just needed to heal. POrtins will be back and stronger.. I say he comes back. Samuels might not be back for health reasons not because he does not have it anymore, but Jones can accupy that position for a couple of years so we will be fine.

I totally agree with you that Portis will be back next year. Whether he heals and returns to form is irrelevent to his decision to return. He gets $10 to $15 Million in the last year of his contract. He will be back for the money. Granted, he has a guarantee of what? $8 million but why not come back and get the whole thing? Play a few games, get a little limp, get put in IR. Viola, the whole enchilada.

crazyhorse1 · Post by **crazyhorse1** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:49 pm

Pablo wrote:I agree with a lot said here. However, I and nobody thought we would get so many injuries, specially at key positions like LT. I believe we had a playoff team until injuries ruined our season. In th offseason Zorn realized Portis was not going to be the Portis from last year..last year Portis took a beating!!! and just like other RBs he needs this year to recover and also with the peassure from fans and the media and the FO to develope and use our 2nd round picks Zorn worked on different schemes of offense relying on pass protection. Oviously that plan went out the window when Smauels got injuried and then Thomas as well and Portis not being able to run the ball because of his Injuries and the Oline not creating holes. So Zorn was not able to adjust I believe because of his inexperience and our offense looked awfull!!!
So Sherm Lewis comes in the picture and with some help on the Oline we start clicking. It wasnt Zorns fault or the front office fault to me. We did not have great detph but come on!! many other teams are the same and in the draft there was not Oline players to draft..plus we already had Reinhart as a guard waiting to prove himself... I would like anybody to name a team that has a probowler at left tackle like Samuels and a back up like Jones behind him.... NO TEAM HAS IT!!!

Everybody should have known that Samuels and Thomas were going down and Heyer was not a legit first team tackle. We also knew that Casey was no longer effective. I don't know how it could have been clearer. Thomas was even told by his doctors not to play and Samuel went down the year before with serious injury. The failure to address the OL was more or less insane, nothing less. What happened was not bad luck, but an obvious development. We also knew Rheinhart was a bust and Williams was a project.

Danny and Co are guilty of pure stupidity and neglect. No luck involved, except good luck. It looks like Williams might work out and that Jones might become important to the team, belatedly. All Danny and Vinny have to do now is draft Okung and spend the second round pick on a center. A second round center is usually the cream of the crop. If they pass up such an opportunity, which they probably will, they should be taken out and shot.

Clausen is a terrible idea because he doesn't have the tools, ask ND fans.
And Bradford is a risk because of injury. There will be no QB available to us in the draft who looks any better than Campbell. Sorry, but it true. Psssing on Okung, who could be a franchise Ol for years, and taking a flyer on a QB, is a likely Danny move, however, and it will be insane.

Manchester_Redskin · Post by **Manchester_Redskin** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:29 am

Hoss wrote:
DEHog wrote:I think the Skins not addressing the OLine in the off-season had alot to do with the failures on the field this season

Agreed 100%

ditto

BurgundyandGoldfaith · Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:11 am

Everyone usually regards Rabach as a keeper but he's mediocre in a season of far less than mediocre lineman. Relatively better is not what we're looking for to win

Redskin in Canada · Post by **Redskin in Canada** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:46 pm

crazyhorse1 wrote:All Danny and Vinny have to do now is draft Okung and spend the second round pick on a center. A second round center is usually the cream of the crop. If they pass up such an opportunity, which they probably will, they should be taken out and shot.

You are not the first one to point this path, which makes perfect sense.
But just like you, and precisely it makes so much sense, most people also agree with you that it might not get done.

I feel that it s a given that Vinny is not going anywhere outside of the organization by the end of the season as some of us had hoped.
More of the same?

Deadskins · Post by **Deadskins** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:57 pm

Zorn, no. Campbell, yes.

Paralis · Post by **Paralis** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:32 pm

Lost in all this talk about Okung is the fact that of the top 10 offenses in the NFL right now, only two of them--the Vikings and the Texans--have 1st-round left tackles, and Duane Brown, the starting LT for the Texans was the 8th tackle taken in 2007 so not really applicable either.

This top 10, FWIW, doesn't include SD (Marcus McNeill, 2nd-rounder, starting LT), PHI (Jason Peters, converted TE, starting LT), or TEN (Michael Roos, 2nd-rounder, starting LT), despite the fact that those three are consistently listed among the best tackles in the game, and that those three teams have had consistently more playoff success than teams featuring high first-round tackles Joe Thomas, Ryan Clady, Jake Long, Robert Gallery, etc. etc. etc.

It's just not the panacea people seem to think it is. If Okung's the best player, he should be the pick, but if McCoy (or by some fluke, Suh) is still available, it's not cut and dry by any stretch of the imagination.

But no, neither Campbell or Zorn got a fair shake. The team collapsed due to OL injuries in 2004 and 2005, and those holes STILL haven't been filled.

REDEEMEDSKIN · Post by **REDEEMEDSKIN** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:19 pm

El Mexican wrote:The season was lost when Joe Gibbs left the team and the FO decided to go with the WCO with basically the same players.

I agree.

That being said, we CANNOT go back to the drawing board on this one. I say we stick with the WCO (we're looking better in it), and make minor changes in personnel at KEY areas (oline) versus starting yet ANOTHER rebuilding period.

Of course, our FO HAS to go.

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:46 pm

The season was lost when the guys in charge did not make sure we had the players and coaches to give the franchise a good opportunity to have a competitive product on the field

it will be very disapointing if we do not make major changes here - specifically, we need a new GM who is in charge of selecting who coaches and plays here

anyone that thinks a new coach and players selected by Snyder or with Snyder's input, is obviously delusional

riggofan · Post by **riggofan** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:42 am

I don't know what to make of this. You could argue that Snyder/Cerrato totally freaked out early in the season and undercut the coach. But this team looked HORRIBLE in September.

As much as I can't stand Vinny, it does seem like the team improved a lot once they moved Sherm Smith in. True?

DEHog · Post by **DEHog** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:38 am

When Snyder brought the team :lol:

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The Season was lost when....

Did Vinny give Zorn and Campbell a fair shot?

The Season was lost when....