Question about the Controversy at the Chargers game

[DesertSkin]

As most of you are probably aware, at the end of the Chargers-Broncos game, Ed "the world buffest referee" Hochuli blew a call with a fumble involving the empty hand rule that probably cost the Chargers a win. My question isn't related about Ed's mistake, but rather, even IF Cutler arm was going forward when he lost control of the ball, why would it be considered an incomplete pass if it went backwards (like it did)? Seems to me, whether its a hit in the motion of throwing, the tuck rule, or a situation like this one, if the ball goes BACKWARDS without anyone but the quarterback touching the ball that it would be a lateral.

I understand that the NFL may have a rule(s) that regardless if it goes backwards or forwards for it to be considered incomplete in the above situations. I just don't understand why that is the only time a quarterback can throw a backwards pass and have it considered incomplete. Seems silly to me.

[Hoss]

D'Skins... my understanding of this play is that Ed "Guns" Hochuli actually admitted that this was a fumble, BUT he whistled the play dead when the ball fell to the turf and thus making it a dead ball and the Broncos possession at the spot of the ball. This was a complete busted call, but I think in this situation, he made the correct decision (based on his initial muffed call). He was 'technically' right.

Still, that call changed the the final result of the game.

[DesertSkin]

D'Skins... my understanding of this play is that Ed "Guns" Hochuli actually admitted that this was a fumble, BUT he whistled the play dead when the ball fell to the turf and thus making it a dead ball and the Broncos possession at the spot of the ball. This was a complete busted call, but I think in this situation, he made the correct decision (based on his initial muffed call). He was 'technically' right.

Still, that call changed the the final result of the game.

I agree 100% with everything you said.

My point/question:

The ball went backwards. Why is that an incomplete FORWARD pass????

[Hoss]

He blew his whistle, inadvertantly, as an incomplete forward pass. After reviewing the play, he knew as well as everyone else, it was a fumble.....BUT since he blew the call DEAD, the ball must be placed at the point where the whistle was blown, and if no other flags, for the initial reason it was placed there.

hope this helps....and let me say....this was a major blown call and the chargers should have won.........

[Deadskins]

Actually they changed the rule a couple of years ago, so that fumbles were reviewable for possession, even after a whistle was blown. I don't know why they didn't apply that here.

But the Redskins had a similar play about three years ago. I think it was Hasselbeck for Seattle. He tried to stop his throw, but wound up driving the ball into the turf at his feet, going backwards it rolled into the endzone, and was recovered by the 'Skins for a TD. The play was reviewed, and called an incomplete pass. But the throw went backwards, and should have been ruled a fumbled lateral.

[absinthe1023]

All of you are overlooking the obvious reason for this occurrence:




"The Curse of Norval"

[Irn-Bru]

The ball went backwards. Why is that an incomplete FORWARD pass????

It never counted as a pass, because Cutler lost the ball before he even brought his arm all way back. In order to qualify as a pass, he needed to have the ball in his hand as his arm started moving forward.

But you are right that the ref blew it on two accounts. One, it should have been a fumble because he never had the ball in a throwing motion. Two, even if he had been throwing the ball, the fact that it traveled backwards means it should have been a fumble.

My take on it is that the ref just had a terrible angle to see it happen and was a bit whistle-happy. You can see on the replay that Cutler's backside was in between his arm and the ref.

[SkinsJock]

The ball went backwards. Why is that an incomplete FORWARD pass????

It never counted as a pass, because Cutler lost the ball before he even brought his arm all way back. In order to qualify as a pass, he needed to have the ball in his hand as his arm started moving forward.

But you are right that the ref blew it on two accounts. One, it should have been a fumble because he never had the ball in a throwing motion. Two, even if he had been throwing the ball, the fact that it traveled backwards means it should have been a fumble.

My take on it is that the ref just had a terrible angle to see it happen and was a bit whistle-happy. You can see on the replay that Cutler's backside was in between his arm and the ref.

You're right on all counts FFA - BUT Hochuli should have corrected his mistake after looking at the tape - major no no

[Irn-Bru]

You're right on all counts FFA - BUT Hochuli should have corrected his mistake after looking at the tape - major no no

I'm not sure which rule JSPB is referring to, which if true would of course be applicable here. However, and I say this with empathy for the Chargers because they got screwed, since Hochuli blew the whistle there was nothing he could do.

Anyone recall the Redskins-Detroit(?) game where Larry Centers had a touchdown taken back due to a similar rule? As I recall, he ran untouched for 40+ yards, but since the whistle was blown when he was somewhere in the middle of the field the Redskins got the ball there instead. I may have some of these details wrong, though. (How do guys like welch do it?)

[DEHog]

They never changed the rule to review a fumble after the whistle blows. They told the refs to error on the side of letting the play play out so it would be reveiwable. To me this was the biggest mistake he made. I can see where in regular motion it looked like a forward pass...if he hed just let it continue it would have been reviewable and they could have gotten it right

[VetSkinsFan]

Mr "guns" had some crappy plays called last week in the WAS/NYG game as well.

[Chris Luva Luva]

Plain & simple the refs are too eager to blow the whistle.

Stay off the whistle!!! Review the play if need be.

[cleg]

As most of you are probably aware, at the end of the Chargers-Broncos game, Ed "the world buffest referee" Hochuli blew a call with a fumble involving the empty hand rule that probably cost the Chargers a win. My question isn't related about Ed's mistake, but rather, even IF Cutler arm was going forward when he lost control of the ball, why would it be considered an incomplete pass if it went backwards (like it did)? Seems to me, whether its a hit in the motion of throwing, the tuck rule, or a situation like this one, if the ball goes BACKWARDS without anyone but the quarterback touching the ball that it would be a lateral.

I understand that the NFL may have a rule(s) that regardless if it goes backwards or forwards for it to be considered incomplete in the above situations. I just don't understand why that is the only time a quarterback can throw a backwards pass and have it considered incomplete. Seems silly to me.

The first thing that went through my head watching live is that this is why you should not hire Norv to be your coach. His precense alone is enough to make otherwise resonable refs like Hoculi make bone-headed mistakes. Norv must have done something bad in a past life.

[gibbs4president]

Plain & simple the refs are too eager to blow the whistle.

Stay off the whistle!!! Review the play if need be.

Gotta agree there. It was hard for him because he was looking from behind Cutler, but the refs do blow the whistle too soon sometimes.

[Deadskins]

They never changed the rule to review a fumble after the whistle blows.

Oh yes they did, back in 2006.

Previously, if a player was ruled down but the ball popped out, the whistle stopped the play in its tracks. Beginning this season, the whistle won't stop the play if the ball comes loose. The play will be reviewable -- it wasn't reviewable if the issue was merely forward progress of the ball carrier -- and could result in a change of possession.

The only thing I can think of is that, being ruled a pass and not Cutler being ruled down, made it impossible to use this rule.

[DEHog]

They never changed the rule to review a fumble after the whistle blows.

Oh yes they did, back in 2006.

Previously, if a player was ruled down but the ball popped out, the whistle stopped the play in its tracks. Beginning this season, the whistle won't stop the play if the ball comes loose. The play will be reviewable -- it wasn't reviewable if the issue was merely forward progress of the ball carrier -- and could result in a change of possession.

The only thing I can think of is that, being ruled a pass and not Cutler being ruled down, made it impossible to use this rule.

You are 100 %Correct...But the way I understand it is, they can only award possession, I was speaking to the entire play. So they told the refs to error on letting it play out. The problem here as you said was the ruling on the field was incomplete pass not down by contact so I'm assuming that Norv could only challenge incomplete pass??

Again the biggest mistake was blowing the whistle...because you can't review a fumble on a incomplete pass call... I feel a rule change coming on!

[Chris Luva Luva]

Again the biggest mistake was blowing the whistle...because you can't review a fumble on a incomplete pass call... I feel a rule change coming on!

Its about time.

They should charge them $5000 for every play blown dead mistakenly. That'll make them think twice.

[Bob 0119]

Unless I'm mistaken, any backwards or lateral pass is considered a fumble if dropped; not ruled an incompletion.

That should answer the OP's question.

[Irn-Bru]

Again the biggest mistake was blowing the whistle...because you can't review a fumble on a incomplete pass call... I feel a rule change coming on!

Its about time.

They should charge them $5000 for every play blown dead mistakenly. That'll make them think twice.

Hopefully they'd pay them a little more (as in, full-time pay at least) before considering something like that.

[DEHog]

Unless I'm mistaken, any backwards or lateral pass is considered a fumble if dropped; not ruled an incompletion.

That should answer the OP's question.

You'd think...but remember Jake Plummer against us a few year ago in Denver!

[Bob 0119]

Unless I'm mistaken, any backwards or lateral pass is considered a fumble if dropped; not ruled an incompletion.

That should answer the OP's question.

You'd think...but remember Jake Plummer against us a few year ago in Denver!

Oh, I haven't forgotton. I just figured that was one of those "Redskins only" calls the ref's like so much.

Maybe Ed forgot that Norv doesn't coach for us antmore!

[Countertrey]

Unless I'm mistaken, any backwards or lateral pass is considered a fumble if dropped; not ruled an incompletion.

That should answer the OP's question.

You'd think...but remember Jake Plummer against us a few year ago in Denver!

Oh, I haven't forgotton. I just figured that was one of those "Redskins only" calls the ref's like so much.

Maybe Ed forgot that Norv doesn't coach for us antmore!

That would certainly explain some of the calls at the Meadowlands over a week ago.

[Deadskins]

Unless I'm mistaken, any backwards or lateral pass is considered a fumble if dropped; not ruled an incompletion.

That should answer the OP's question.

You'd think...but remember Jake Plummer against us a few year ago in Denver!

That's the play I was talking about. I don't know where I got Seattle.

[Deadskins]

Hochuli to be graded down for blown call
Sept. 15, 2008 03:43 PM
Associated Press


NEW YORK - Ed Hochuli's acknowledgement that he erred on a call late in Sunday's San Diego-Denver game will mean lower grades for one of the NFL's highest profile referees.

"Officials are held accountable for their calls. They are graded on every play of every game," NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said Monday. "Ed has been an outstanding official for many years, but he will be marked down for this call. Under our evaluation system, an official's grades impact his status for potentially working the playoffs and ultimately whether or not he is retained."

The play occurred with the Broncos at the Chargers 1-yard-line in the final minute. Denver quarterback Jay Cutler dropped back to pass, the ball slipped out of his hands, bounced off the grass and into the arms of San Diego linebacker Tim Dobbins.
Hochuli ruled it an incomplete pass. Replay ruled it a fumble, but it was spotted at the 10-yard line, where the ball hit the ground, and given to Denver because the rules did not permit possession to be awarded to San Diego because the whistle had blown.

Denver went on to score, convert a 2-point conversion and win 39-38.

The play also is likely to be reviewed in the offseason by the league's competition committee, which normally reviews all controversial plays.

"It's going to require a great deal of discussion," said Titans coach Jeff Fisher, the cochairman of the competition committee. "It's happened at times. It happened in a game against us at Indianapolis years ago. ... When the whistle blows and the pass is ruled incomplete, there's just no way currently that you can award possession."

For example, until March 2007, down by contact plays were not reviewable. That rule was changed so that they were reviewable, and if a fumble occurred even after the whistle blew, the team recovering it got possession San Diego coach Norv Turner said he spoke with NFL officials Monday and that the Chargers sent in video of the plays in question.

"As for things that occurred during the game, in my mind, they're done," Turner said. "We sent the plays in to the league that we had in question. We expect to get a response back. Anything that we talk about or anything that is discussed in terms of any of the rules or any of the calls isn't going to change the outcome of that game. That game is going to be 39-38, forever."

Denver coach Mike Shanahan said honest mistakes always happen in the NFL.

"This was the best crew that we have had in the last 20 crews I have graded," Shanahan said. "They did a heck of a job. Every game that you see that is within a point or a field goal over the last couple years, it may be a call or a non-call that wasn't right, but that is the nature of this game. You have to find a way to win.

"We still had the ball at third-and-10 and had to get it into the end zone. Third-and-10 and then fourth-and-4. We still had to make a 2-point conversion," Shanahan said. "It wasn't like somebody gave us the touchdown. You have to go out there and still get it done."

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/cardina ... umble.html

The reason he's been outstanding is because he blows so many calls.

No, check that. That's the reason he's been standing out.

[Bob 0119]

Y'know, Ed was at least man enough to admit he blew the call.

Most refs won't even give you that.

I generally don't have a problem with him, he's usually pretty good. It's a shame he has to be the example of all that is wrong with the current officiating.