Women's Team Gymnastics

JansenFan · Post by **JansenFan** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:28 am

It ended as it should have. China was clearly the best. It was disappointing only in that China opened the door and our girls couldn't pry it open, but this was clearly the right result.

I feel bad for poor Alicia Sacramone. I know she feels like it was all her fault, but they all had to be perfect to make up the 2 points they were behind just on starting difficulty scores and besides Nastia Luiken's uneven bars routine and Shawn Johnson's Beam routine. Then Andrea Joyce from NBS just basically rips her for 2 minutes, then interviews the whole team and ignores her, while asking her teammates how it feels to only gotten the silver when they should have won, and how they felt after Alicia fell off the beam. She should write for the Post.

rod_gardner_fan_club · Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:53 am

the chinese got gold, but what they really wanted was some warm milk and a bedtime story.

seriously that one girl was like 8.

Cappster · Post by **Cappster** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:02 am

There has been a lot of speculation about whether or not that the Chinese girls were even old enough to compete. Regardless, they were the better team and they closed it out. We can still pull for some of the girls to get individual medals.

Post by **admin** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:31 am

'She's only 12 - it's not fair.'

Anyone else find that funny? (Not knocking the sentiment)

We'll never, ever know if the girls are actually old enough to PARTICIPATE in the Olympics, but I think they categorically proved that they were able to COMPETE.

cvillehog · Post by **cvillehog** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:50 am

admin wrote:We'll never, ever know if the girls are actually old enough to PARTICIPATE in the Olympics, but I think they categorically proved that they were able to COMPETE.

Béla Károlyi said much the same when the question about their age was posed to him immediately after the result was shown on NBC.

I think it's amazing that the american women were even able to give the Chinese a run for the gold, given the way gymnastics training is approached in China. I'm sure that's no comfort to the US team, though.

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:27 am

cvillehog wrote:
admin wrote:We'll never, ever know if the girls are actually old enough to PARTICIPATE in the Olympics, but I think they categorically proved that they were able to COMPETE.

Béla Károlyi said much the same when the question about their age was posed to him immediately after the result was shown on NBC.

I think it's amazing that the american women were even able to give the Chinese a run for the gold, given the way gymnastics training is approached in China. I'm sure that's no comfort to the US team, though.

Cville! Good to see you on the boards again!

cvillehog · Post by **cvillehog** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:30 am

Irn-Bru wrote:
cvillehog wrote:
admin wrote:We'll never, ever know if the girls are actually old enough to PARTICIPATE in the Olympics, but I think they categorically proved that they were able to COMPETE.

Béla Károlyi said much the same when the question about their age was posed to him immediately after the result was shown on NBC.

I think it's amazing that the american women were even able to give the Chinese a run for the gold, given the way gymnastics training is approached in China. I'm sure that's no comfort to the US team, though.

Cville! Good to see you on the boards again!

Thanks!

MDSKINSFAN · Post by **MDSKINSFAN** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:43 pm

admin wrote:'She's only 12 - it's not fair.'

Anyone else find that funny? (Not knocking the sentiment)

yea it is funny. its not fair im losing to someone ten years younger than me. regardless of how old they are they were the best and they beat us so they deserve the gold

frankcal20 · Post by **frankcal20** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:40 pm

Whats up guys!!!!!!

Well my Wife had me watching this and yep, that one girl is not 16. But if she can kick our butt, which she did, I'm all for it.

What I found was funny was the delay in the Judges in letting our athletes start and then once they were done, the amount of time it took for us to get our scores.

When the Chinese gymnast finished it seemed like seconds and they were getting huge scores. It didn't seem like it was a level playing field.

Fios · Post by **Fios** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:42 pm

It wasn't, the Chinese were much better

Countertrey · Post by **Countertrey** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:46 pm

frankcal20 wrote:Whats up guys!!!!!!

Well my Wife had me watching this and yep, that one girl is not 16. But if she can kick our butt, which she did, I'm all for it.

What I found was funny was the delay in the Judges in letting our athletes start and then once they were done, the amount of time it took for us to get our scores.

When the Chinese gymnast finished it seemed like seconds and they were getting huge scores. It didn't seem like it was a level playing field.

The home team, especially if it's good, always has an advantage... in many sports... Being at home will kick a good team over the top... it's worked for our teams and athletes, too.

Regarding the age thing, I haven't heard our athletes complain... it's mostly the press making an issue, from what I can see...

NC43Hog · Post by **NC43Hog** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:12 pm

If you are going to have rules then abide by them.

So which rules to you want to follow and which do you want to ignore.

If they have to be sixteen then they have to be sixteen.

When do we start picking and choosing the rules we want to enforce or abide by?

Yes they beat us - but was it by the rules . . . we may never know.

Countertrey · Post by **Countertrey** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:40 pm

NC43Hog wrote:If you are going to have rules then abide by them.

So which rules to you want to follow and which do you want to ignore.

If they have to be sixteen then they have to be sixteen.

When do we start picking and choosing the rules we want to enforce or abide by?

Yes they beat us - but was it by the rules . . . we may never know.

The problem is, there is no way to validate their ages. We WILL (not may) NEVER KNOW... You can demand fair play all you want, but the accepted proof of age is a passport... They LOOK like they are 12... but, without proof, that's all you can say. I have seen plenty of 16 year old adolescents who look younger than 16. Haven't you?

It is what it is, and it's ripe for cheating... and it can be done by ALL nations, not just the home team. Since there is no way to prove it, there is no point in getting wrapped around the axle. The best way to overcome it is to beat them anyway...

At any rate, my point related to "home court advantage"... the same dynamic that led to the Miracle on Ice in Lake Placid, or the incredible victory of the US gymnasts in Los Angeles... not to cheating.

GSPODS · Post by **GSPODS** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:41 pm

Just Grow Up, Will You All?
OK. That was corny, but apparently the IOC has at least considered the possibility that the host country might be practicing "age manipulation" with regard to certain female athletes.

BEIJING (AP)—The International Olympic Committee’s top medical official said Friday that “age manipulation” is difficult to detect and that tests purporting to pinpoint a person’s age can be off by as much as two years.

Arne Ljungqvist, head of the IOC medical commission spoke two days after China’s controversial gold medal in women’s team gymnastics.

Gymnasts must be 16 during the Olympic year to be eligible for the games. Online records and newspaper accounts suggest three Chinese gymnasts—He Kexin, Jiang Yuyuan and Jang Yilin—may be underage, but Chinese passport records show they meet the age rules.

Ljungqvist said there was no effective test to determine an athlete’s age, only crude measures that aren’t scientifically accurate. He said the error factor in such tests was one or two years.

“This is a question that is being tackled by several federations, not just gymnastics,” he said. “This is a problem when you have an age limit that there is a temptation for manipulation. How to prove that is very difficult.”

Ljungqvist chose his words carefully, saying he had no reason to believe Chinese had manipulated documents to make the gymnasts appear to be of age.

A former vice president of the IAAF, the world governing body of world track and field, Ljungqvist said the junior ranks of that sport had similar problems.

“I spoke yesterday to the medical officer of the International Gymnastics Federation and they are aware of the problem, or the potential problem,” Ljungqvist said.

My response: Oh, come on. Just because the Gold Medal and the milk teeth both go under the pillow at night is no reason to be suspicious of any age manipulation on passports. All 16 year olds have milk teeth, don't they?

joebagadonuts · Post by **joebagadonuts** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:22 pm

Can't they just do carbon dating?

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:24 pm

No, the girls are too young for that. It's best not to rush the romance.

NC43Hog · Post by **NC43Hog** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:53 pm

I say we fight fire with fire!!

BossHog · Post by **BossHog** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:35 am

Pretty awesome to watch little Shawn Johnson mentally power through everything... what fortitude she has. Lots of disappointments and near misses, but always a brave face.

Nastia is definitely a more classic looking gymnast, and personally, I think that's hurt Shawn... but the little fireplug sure has represented her country well on and off the mat.

JansenFan · Post by **JansenFan** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:38 pm

BossHog wrote:Pretty awesome to watch little Shawn Johnson mentally power through everything... what fortitude she has. Lots of disappointments and near misses, but always a brave face.

Nastia is definitely a more classic looking gymnast, and personally, I think that's hurt Shawn... but the little fireplug sure has represented her country well on and off the mat.

Jackson Hearts Shawn.

NC43Hog · Post by **NC43Hog** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:43 pm

JansenFan wrote:Jackson Hearts Shawn.

He's about her size now huh!

:lol:

JansenFan · Post by **JansenFan** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:49 pm

NC43Hog wrote:
JansenFan wrote:Jackson Hearts Shawn.

He's about her size now huh!

He's 4'2" and going into second grade. ;-)

He's also got good taste in crushes, apparently. I agree with BH that the fact that she doesn't have the "ideal gymnast's body" has hurt her scores. Of course, I thought most of the scoring was terrible through all the events for all the gymnasts.

BossHog · Post by **BossHog** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:26 am

JansenFan wrote:
NC43Hog wrote:
JansenFan wrote:Jackson Hearts Shawn.

He's about her size now huh!

He's 4'2" and going into second grade. He's also got good taste in crushes, apparently. I agree with BH that the fact that she doesn't have the "ideal gymnast's body" has hurt her scores. Of course, I thought most of the scoring was terrible through all the events for all the gymnasts.

... yeah well that's likely because we're listening to Tim Daggett's take on it.

What a horrorshow... wow.

Judging has been 'suspect' at a lot more than gymnastics though - if the Chinese are involved in any way, then they're going to get the 'benefit of the doubt.'

The diving was worse than the gymnastics IMO and the irony of that, is that nobody can touch the Chinese ANYWAY! They pretty much got 9's every time they went into the pool and all kinds of supposed 'breaks' weren't penalized in any way... if they hit they got 9 or 9.5, and when they 'missed' they got 8's. :roll:

Ridiculous.

JansenFan · Post by **JansenFan** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:23 am

Actually, I listen to Tim Daggett in much the same way I listen to John Madden and Cris Collinsworth. He's a moron. I do, however, listen to Bela Corroli (sp?). I know his wife is their coach and that he's an apologist a lot of the time, but he makes excellent points when you can understand him. :lol:

I also agree that it seems EVERY break goes the way of the Chinese. The synchronized diving was ridiculous. Hell, the uneven bars should have been reversed. The Chinese girl that won bronze should have won gold, and the girl that won gold should have won bronze.

BossHog · Post by **BossHog** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:48 am

Give credit to the Chinese though - they HIRED people to be fans at the Olympics, especially to be used at 'not-so-attended' events.

It's hard to believe that 'fan reaction' doesn't at least have SOME bearing on some of these judging decisions.

Bela is still biased, but he's smart. He knows that whining about 'opinion' is a complete waste of time. He's very smart to only point out 'disparity' in grades as opposed to dwelling on the grades themselves.

And he's certainly very correct in his assertion that the new judging system doesn't fix old problems, it just makes it near impossible for a lay observer to even understand the results.

Especially when the commentators don't sem to get it.

I mean really it's very simple... they should be dwelling on the B scores since they are basically the same as the old scores out of 10... which is what everyone understands. If at theend of all of that, you then tack on that the new judging system AWARDS the more difficult routines by then adding the total of the level of difficulty for the routine - it's not that tough to understand. A lot of the problem is that even the commentators are CREATING the disassociation by concentrating on the FINAL number more than the fact that it is the combination of two scores.

My 2 cents

I mean honestly... if you're 'calling it' properly... then when a gymnast is say, the last on an event, and let's say she's trying to catch a score of 16.5... the commentators should say something like, 'This routine has a degree of difficulty of 6.8, so the MAXIMUM she can score is 16.8 with an absolutely perfect 10 routine.'

JansenFan · Post by **JansenFan** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:15 am

BossHog wrote:Give credit to the Chinese though - they HIRED people to be fans at the Olympics, especially to be used at 'not-so-attended' events.

Oh yes, they are re-defining what a host country does for an Olympics, from digitally-enhanced fireworks, Milli Vanilli style singing children, and absolutely dominating the events. The US has a lot of good performers and a few great. The Chinese don't have a lot of good performers, but they have the best performers in a number of events (diving, powerlifting, men's gymnastics, etc.)

As far as the crowd goes, its human nature to have your view of a performance be affected by crowd reaction, particularly if you are a judge in an event where your knowledge and expertise isn't as high as others.