Another Day in the Middle-East

dnpmakkah · Post by **dnpmakkah** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:33 pm

Tens of thousands of Palestinians wept and screamed for revenge as they buried 18 civilians killed by Israeli shelling in a massive funeral in Gaza on Thursday.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, saying he was very distressed by the deaths of innocents, blamed the carnage on a "technical failure" by Israeli artillery.

While the European Union said it was "appalled" by the Gaza shelling, an initial response by the United States stopped short of reprimanding Israel.
LINK HERE

For such a savy military they sure do make a lot of mistakes. On a side note it's interesting how the rest of the world will condemn the death of innocent lives but not America. Especially since America is at the forefront of condemning almost everything. They condemn Hamas, they condemn Iraqi's flying in the no fly zone pre-war, they condemn Irans aim of gaining nuclear technology even though they have a right to, they condemn North Korea for testing weapons. Yet they won't condemn this. :hmm:

Countertrey · Post by **Countertrey** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:47 pm

It's peculiar... you chose to live here, actually had to go out of your way to do it... yet, nothing we do is right. Our President is a war criminal, our military are murderers, our laws are tyranical. If you prefer Europe, why not live there? :roll:

Yup... a very funny man.

Fios · Post by **Fios** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:58 pm

I'm an American citizen by birth and it's not unreasonable to say we take a rather lax attitude toward Israeli transgressions; note I am NOT saying the Palestenians aren't culpable in this never-ending conflict but Israel has a lot of blood on its hands as well and rarely is it faced with any sort of (legitimate) punitive reaction from our government

dnpmakkah · Post by **dnpmakkah** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:21 pm

Countertrey wrote:yet, nothing we do is right.

Really? Do you ever hear me complain about America invading Afghanistan? No you don't so what does that tell you. It has nothing to do with 'AMERICA'. What is wrong is wrong and there happens to be a lot of wrong in this country since Bush took office. Hopefully that will change. I do love how whenever America is criticized the natural response is "then why don't you leave". Good one. That's the problem with your way of thinking. Instead of trying to fix the problem you would rather keep status quo as is because this is America and F' everyone else right? Come one everyone chant with me. U.S.A U.S.A U.S.A U.S.A U.S.A U.S.A U.S.A U.S.A. Where is Hacksaw Jim Duggan when you need him.....HOOOOOOOOO!

Countertrey wrote:Our President is a war criminal, our military are murderers, our laws are tyranical.

Finally getting though huh? J/K

thaiphoon · Post by **thaiphoon** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:13 pm

Do you ever hear me complain about America invading Afghanistan?

sure...thats the "good" war and has everything to do with the War on Islamists and Terror right?? Iraq is the "bad war" and has nothing to do with the War right?? Despite the fact that our enemy believes it has EVERYTHING to do with the War, you, amazingly believe it has nothing to do with it.

Guess in WWII we shouldn't have helped Britain, Russia and the rest of the European allies since, you know, it was Japan that attacked us. :roll:

Deadskins · Post by **Deadskins** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:26 pm

thaiphoon wrote:
Do you ever hear me complain about America invading Afghanistan?

sure...thats the "good" war and has everything to do with the War on Islamists and Terror right?? Iraq is the "bad war" and has nothing to do with the War right?? Despite the fact that our enemy believes it has EVERYTHING to do with the War, you, amazingly believe it has nothing to do with it.

Guess in WWII we shouldn't have helped Britain, Russia and the rest of the European allies since, you know, it was Japan that attacked us.

You never stop trying to make this police action into WWII, do you? It is not. But if you take your analogy on it's face, you are claiming that Iraq and Afghanistan were allies, pre-9/11, and that our allies were already at war with Iraq. Also Afghanistan would have to have been being ruled by al Qaeda. That just doesn't pass the smell test.

thaiphoon · Post by **thaiphoon** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:57 pm

al-Qaeda was being succored by both regimes. Wait for it later and I'll explain further.

dnpmakkah · Post by **dnpmakkah** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:19 pm

thaiphoon wrote:Guess in WWII we shouldn't have helped Britain, Russia and the rest of the European allies since, you know, it was Japan that attacked us.

Still living off the glory days of the past huh? Guess its hard for you to accept America in any other light than a good one huh? Not much to say on my end when you continue to cling onto a connection that was decades ago and use such theories as "it worked in the past". :wink:

Seriously though there really isn't much I can say to you. It is nice having a back n' forth converstion however. I always enjoy those. Tell me....what will it take for you to admit America was in the wrong? Is there such a point?

ATV · Post by **ATV** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:17 pm

"Iraq is the "bad war" and has nothing to do with the War right?? Despite the fact that our enemy believes it has EVERYTHING to do with the War, you, amazingly believe it has nothing to do with it."

Which enemy do you refer? The Al-Qaeda members in Iraq that the Iraqi people now support, or the more general Iraqi people that want us to leave and view us occupiers? Of course Al-Qaeda would love to see us leave Iraq. So would almost all residents of the Middle East. So would most Americans. So what?

Iraq had nothing to do with the "War on Terror" until we made it so. Is it now part of our "War on Terror"? I dunno and I don't really care. This "War on Terror" jargon is bullcrap to begin with.

"Guess in WWII we shouldn't have helped Britain, Russia and the rest of the European allies since, you know, it was Japan that attacked us."

What?! I have no idea what your logic is here. I should remind you that we were actively supporting Great Britain before Japan ever invaded us, though.

.....Taiphoon, I don't mean to insult you, but seriously, what is your education level?

thaiphoon · Post by **thaiphoon** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:34 pm

Still living off the glory days of the past huh? Guess its hard for you to accept America in any other light than a good one huh? Not much to say on my end when you continue to cling onto a connection that was decades ago and use such theories as "it worked in the past".

The point is that you and the others in the anti-war crowd like to divest Iraq from the larger War on Terror. It cannot be done if one is to honest about the struggle we're in. Just like divesting the European theatre from WWII could not be done either.

Seriously though there really isn't much I can say to you. It is nice having a back n' forth converstion however. I always enjoy those. Tell me....what will it take for you to admit America was in the wrong? Is there such a point?

Sure there is. There is plenty we've done wrong in the past and plenty we'll do wrong in the future. This ain't it though

thaiphoon · Post by **thaiphoon** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:41 pm

"Iraq is the "bad war" and has nothing to do with the War right?? Despite the fact that our enemy believes it has EVERYTHING to do with the War, you, amazingly believe it has nothing to do with it."

Which enemy do you refer? The Al-Qaeda members in Iraq that the Iraqi people now support, or the more general Iraqi people that want us to leave and view us occupiers? Of course Al-Qaeda would love to see us leave Iraq. So would almost all residents of the Middle East. So would most Americans. So what?

I'm not talking about Iraqis that would like to see us leave (as they view us as occupiers) but don't raise arms against us. I'm most clearly talking about those who are actively fighting our efforts to stabilize the country and eventually turn it over to them so that they don't turn into another pre 9/11 Afghanistan

Iraq had nothing to do with the "War on Terror" until we made it so. Is it now part of our "War on Terror"? I dunno and I don't really care. This "War on Terror" jargon is bullcrap to begin with.

Thanks for your thoughts. However Iraq was definitely a part of the War as I'll explain later in another thread.

"Guess in WWII we shouldn't have helped Britain, Russia and the rest of the European allies since, you know, it was Japan that attacked us."

What?! I have no idea what your logic is here. I should remind you that we were actively supporting Great Britain before Japan ever invaded us, though.

Actually Japan didn't "invade" the US until well after hostilities started. You mean "attacked" right? I'm not seeing your point here. You're saying we were wrong to provide materiel support Britain in WWII pre-Pearl Harbor??

.....Taiphoon, I don't mean to insult you, but seriously, what is your education level?

Not an insult. I hold a Bachelor degree and a Masters degree. And yours?

thaiphoon · Post by **thaiphoon** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:57 pm

Go here...

http://www.the-hogs.net/forum/viewtopic. ... 098#289098

ATV · Post by **ATV** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:57 pm

"I'm not talking about Iraqis that would like to see us leave (as they view us as occupiers) but don't raise arms against us. I'm most clearly talking about those who are actively fighting our efforts to stabilize the country and eventually turn it over to them."

Yea,...there were some of those people. In the first few months after the war. The sad fact is that there are very, very few of them left. It's a lost cause, Holmes. The people don't want us there.

"Actually Japan didn't "invade" the US until well after hostilities started....blah blah blah"

You're getting off the subject, what was the original analogy you were trying to make?

"Not an insult. I hold a Bachelor degree and a Masters degree. And yours?"

I hold the same, from state universities. Again, not to insult, but are yours from the University of Pheonix Online or similar?

thaiphoon · Post by **thaiphoon** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:00 pm

"I'm not talking about Iraqis that would like to see us leave (as they view us as occupiers) but don't raise arms against us. I'm most clearly talking about those who are actively fighting our efforts to stabilize the country and eventually turn it over to them."

Yea,...there were some of those people. In the first few months after the war. The sad fact is that there are very, very few of them left. It's a lost cause, Holmes. The people don't want us there.

From what I've heard from my friends and relatives who are serving over there. There are alot more than is currently being reported. I'd rather listen to them than you if thats ok.

"Actually Japan didn't "invade" the US until well after hostilities started....blah blah blah"

You're getting off the subject, what was the original analogy you were trying to make?

I already made it my friend. You cannot divest Iraq from the larger War on Terror. See my post above for ean explanation why. It points to another post I made on this forum

"Not an insult. I hold a Bachelor degree and a Masters degree. And yours?"

I hold the same, from state universities. Again, not to insult, but are yours from the University of Pheonix Online or similar?

Nope - state universities here as well. I like your subtle dig at trying to make me seem uneducated though.

ATV · Post by **ATV** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:23 pm

"From what I've heard from my friends and relatives who are serving over there. There are alot more than is currently being reported. I'd rather listen to them than you if thats ok."

Well, everything I've read and seen, including soldier's accounts, points to it being a giant *sh$t* storm.

"I already made it my friend. You cannot divest Iraq from the larger War on Terror."

You're off-topic still. You were attempting to make some strange analogy to World War II. Please explain.

"Nope - state universities here as well."

Well, I'm surprised. Skeptical as well.

"I like your subtle dig at trying to make me seem uneducated though."

It was purely my own curiosity, because I honestly feel like I'm trying to argue with someone who doesn't have a firm grasp on reality.

thaiphoon · Post by **thaiphoon** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:39 am

"I already made it my friend. You cannot divest Iraq from the larger War on Terror."

You're off-topic still. You were attempting to make some strange analogy to World War II. Please explain.

I've explained it quite well. You just refuse to acknowledge it. Iraq is as much a part of the War on Terror as the WWII operations in China, the North Africa campaign and the campaign in Europe.

Again - go here:

http://www.the-hogs.net/forum/viewtopic. ... 098#289098

"Nope - state universities here as well."

Well, I'm surprised. Skeptical as well.

Hehe... why am I not surprised... :roll:

"I like your subtle dig at trying to make me seem uneducated though."

It was purely my own curiosity, because I honestly feel like I'm trying to argue with someone who doesn't have a firm grasp on reality.

Ahhh. I see. So your even more subtle point is that someone who doesn't hold as many degrees as you has no grasp of reality? Exactly what does a person's education level have to do with their ability to "grasp reality"? What would you have said had I told you I had a Bachelor's only? Would you think I less likely to be able to grasp reality than you?? So since I hold as many advanced degrees as you I pass the test?? Talk about off the subject ...

Countertrey · Post by **Countertrey** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:58 am

Do you ever hear me complain about America invading Afghanistan?

You serious? You do realize that this site has a search feature, don't you?

dnpmakkah, June 2, 2006

How funny would it be if the UN or World Court proclaimed that the 60,000 deaths of innocent lives lost in Iraq and Afghanistan was illegal and due to the fact that Bush is the head man in charge they decided to punish him for his actions just as America has deemed Saddam responsible for the deaths of his own people.

June 5, 2006

I said:

Countertrey wrote:
Tell me... how many of their own has al Qaeda arrested, tried, convicted, and punished for attrocities committed upon innocents? Do you care?

How many of their own have the Taliban arrested, tried, convicted and punished for attrocities committed upon innocents? Do you care?

Your response?

dnpmakkah replied:
I don't care....you know why? Because it's their country, their people, their religon and we should let them run it the way they want too. America isn't there for democracy. The only reason they are there is for selfish ones and you are too blind to realize it.

Yup... never a word of complaint about America invading Afghanistan.

thaiphoon · Post by **thaiphoon** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 1:04 am

Hehe - CT, that is priceless !!!

ATV · Post by **ATV** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 1:39 am

"Iraq is as much a part of the War on Terror as the WWII operations in China, the North Africa campaign and the campaign in Europe."

Uhh.....no. If you'd like a World War II analogy, something appropriate would be a worser German occupation of Norway or the Warsaw Ghetto on a grand scale.

You know what? It's only a matter of time until you understand that this occupation is a complete waste of human life and precious resources. Time will do it's own work on you. Then again, you're probably one of those people who believes Vietnam could have been "won" if only we buried a few more thousand Americans and several hundred thousand more Vietnamese. Look at Vietnam today. They really hate our guts. Yea....as soon as our troops left there we had to fight them on our street corners, lol.

"So your even more subtle point is that someone who doesn't hold as many degrees as you has no grasp of reality?"

No, attempting to put words in my mouth.

"What would you have said had I told you I had a Bachelor's only?"

Probably nothing.

"Would you think I less likely to be able to grasp reality than you??"

Probably not.

"So since I hold as many advanced degrees as you I pass the test??"

No, attempting to put words in my mouth.

thaiphoon · Post by **thaiphoon** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:01 am

"Iraq is as much a part of the War on Terror as the WWII operations in China, the North Africa campaign and the campaign in Europe."

Uhh.....no. If you'd like a World War II analogy, something appropriate would be a worser German occupation of Norway or the Warsaw Ghetto on a grand scale.

ahh.. a blam Americ-firster...I understand why you put us in the villain role. You draw the analogy of the Germans occupying Norway instead of us eventually occupying Germany. I understand your dilemma now.

You know what? It's only a matter of time until you understand that this occupation is a complete waste of human life and precious resources. Time will do it's own work on you. Then again, you're probably one of those people who believes Vietnam could have been "won" if only we buried a few more thousand Americans and several hundred thousand more Vietnamese. Look at Vietnam today. They really hate our guts. Yea....as soon as our troops left there we had to fight them on our street corners, lol.

The North Vietnamese said their goal was not military victories (of which they never won any major battles against us). The Tet Offensive was a major defeat for them but it was displayed as a defeat for us by the Us media (Cronkite was the chief culprit in this). There goal was to sap the will of our public back home (much like the goal of the terrorists today). I'm sad to see so many "weak sisters" in the public now. As for your analogy I don't think YOU have a firm grasp of reality now. We don't getto end wars on our terms without coming to victory first. We could do that with Vietnam and simply declare "we won" and then leave. In Vietnam, we could leave and they not follow us back here. We leave Iraq without victory and they will follow us back here and hit us again. It will be just a continuation of what happend in Berut, Somalia, etc... to them and it will only embolden them to strike at us even more. Unfortunately you don't seem to grasp this basic point.

"So your even more subtle point is that someone who doesn't hold as many degrees as you has no grasp of reality?"

No, attempting to put words in my mouth.

That was a question not a statement. Notcie the "?" after the sentence?I'm merely trying to understand why the segue to talk about my education level during a discussion we're having if its not relevant to your argument.

"What would you have said had I told you I had a Bachelor's only?"

Probably nothing.

"Would you think I less likely to be able to grasp reality than you??"

Probably not.

Then why ask the question in the first place?

dnpmakkah · Post by **dnpmakkah** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:05 am

Countertrey wrote:You serious? You do realize that this site has a search feature, don't you?

Yes I do. Now my question to you is do you know how to use it? If you read the below quote you can clearly see what I said.

dnpmakkah Sun Jun 19, 2005 5:15 pm wrote:We can all understand why America attacked Afghanistan. But what was the point of going into Iraq?
LINK

So once again you are wrong. I have made several complaints that the deaths of innocent lives lost in Afghanistan is illegal but I have never said invading Afghanistian was wrong. I have always maintained that in that case Bush had to do what he had to do because of 9/11.

Countertrey wrote:Yup... never a word of complaint about America invading Afghanistan.

Complaints about invading? Nope none that I see. Complaints about killing innocent lives? Yep I've done a lot of that.

dnpmakkah · Post by **dnpmakkah** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:07 am

ATV wrote:Look at Vietnam today. They really hate our guts. Yea....as soon as our troops left there we had to fight them on our street corners, lol.

DAAAAAAAAGER!

thaiphoon · Post by **thaiphoon** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:14 am

DAAAAAAAAGER!

Self inflicted wound. Vietnamese weren't going to follow us back here and bomc our buildings. The terrorists will.

ATV · Post by **ATV** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:15 am

"We leave Iraq without victory and they will follow us back here and hit us again."

Sure, many in Al-Qaeda (who we're certain to have emboldened and grown in numbers) would love to come here and cause us harm. The average Iraqi? They simply want us out of their country.

Unless you're assuming that all or most Iraqis have joined Al-Qaeda, which is ridiculous. Are you sure you know what an occupation is?

thaiphoon · Post by **thaiphoon** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:29 am

Sure, many in Al-Qaeda (who we're certain to have emboldened and grown in numbers)

i'm sure we emboldened the Germans and allowed them to recruit more Hitler youth after we invaded in n. Africa and Normandy too. This argument of yours is weak my friend.

would love to come here and cause us harm. The average Iraqi? They simply want us out of their country.

sure and the former will follow us and the latter will stay. But the former will follow us because he believes us to be weak after his "victory" over us in Iraq.