America and the world needs to wake up!

[skins#1fan]

Everyone in America and around the world needs to wake up! These people want to kill you, your children, and your entire family. Why is that so hard to understand? Everyone on this site knows how conservative I am but this is not a Republican or Democrat thing, this is a right and wrong thing. If this attack would have gone through today they would be over there celebrating the fact that they killed innocent children on the plane and the fact they destroyed thousands of families and innocent civilians! Each and every day they continue to plot and plot and come up with more sneaky ways to try and use there weapons and bombs to kill us. I have to believe that the one moment we put our guard down we will get hit again. I dont know where or when but that should show everyone how determined they really are. They are not fighting for A country or a piece of land. They are not fighting for oil or money. There goal is to destroy our nation and everything we are about. They want us to wake up fearing them everyday and to be scared to fly in our planes or drive over our bridges. The bottom line is that we need to stay united as one nation and protect our future for us and the next generation.

[yupchagee]

People will wake up, but only for a little while. Look how complacent people have become since 9/11/01.

[nuskins]

Is it that they just cannot stand people having freedom? (that's what the govt. would like you to think)

The real problem is the Empirialistic actions of Western European nations and the USA since WWII. The creation and placement of Israel smack in the middle of Arab lands being a prime example.

Not everyone wants democracy and it is not the USA"s authority to impose it's own form of govt. across the world. The resentment most Arabs cultivated towards western cultures has been festering since the middle ages, it is truly like we are in a modern day "crusade" only which there are no winners.

IMO.. the only way to win the war on terror is either isolationism on our part( ie..pull out of all arab lands and let them return to their hunter-gatherer or agrarian societies) or all out genocide on the order the world has never seen. The eradication of an entire race of people much like Hitler once tried to do. ( I do not endorse this action, only use it to illustrate a point)

The religions do not mix, there is more than just a "radical" element driving terrorism, it is a clash of cultures, values, and religion. We as western culture have imposed ourselves on a group of people that do not view the world the way we do. Terrorism (as we know today) began shortly after the creation of Israel and has been gaining strength since.

I say that the US should return to the pre WWII philosphy of Isolationism.
Completely pull out of all arab nations, end our blind and irrational support for Israel and let the area sort itself out. Secure our own borders and account for those in the country. Our country is in a perfect spot on this earth for natural protection, the Middle East and Asia are literally on the other side of the world and we have enourmous defensive buffers of both the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. If you are a terrorist standing in Afghanistan or Iraq it is truly hard to reach the USA, rather it's next to impossible. Airplanes are really the only means they have to reach us and with enough due diligence on our part this can be negated. Embrace the nations of our own hemisphere. What do we need from the Middle East besides oil? What other commodity do they posses? There is only one way trade that takes place there. Our economy would stumble, but it has stumbled before. Think of the BILLIONS of dollars spent on the Middle East since 9/11 and more importantly the lives of American men and women lost on an unwinnable war. If put 400 BILLION into energy research here in our own country just think of the job creation and independence from oil we could attain! We need to look at alternate energy resources for our country. This is the bane of western societies existence, our reliance on foreign oil. Does anyone really believe that we would have standing armies in Arab lands if not for the oil?

The big oil companies are so entrenched in today's govt. that there is no will of lawmakers to seriously pursue alternate energy resources. Much as big steel called the shots in the 19th century today big oil is dictating foreign policy. We need to get Big Oil out of our govt. and the men who have been greased and influenced by them must be replaced. We need fresh thinking, outside the box solutions that I do not feel the current Congress, Senate, or White House can produce. This problem is larger than just one man, George Bush Jr. is just the latest puppet who's strings are being pulled by unseen and unreported influences of Industry and oil. We as a nation put men on the moon 40 years ago, we can certainly figure out how to provide power for our nation through technology. There is more energy released by the sun that hits our atmosphere in ONE day than the world uses in a year. We must get off the oil addiction and leave that area of the world if we ever want peace. This should have been started during the 1970's oil crisis, but we returned to our blinders and let Big Oil move us further into the the qagmire we are in today. Peace cannot and will not come from invasion and occupation, name one instance in history where that has worked in the long term? We cannot change a race of people or their thinking. Our actions of the last 5 years have created MORE terrorists, we are far more in danger today than we were after 9/11.

[dnpmakkah]

Our actions of the last 5 years have created MORE terrorists, we are far more in danger today than we were after 9/11.

First off, I would like to say that was a very nice and pleasent read. Secondly - get ready for those who will come on here and try to prove to you and themselves that the world is safer now and the war on terror has NOT created more terrorist. These people will NEVER admit fault in policy.

The word terrorist has become such a misused word. People till this day have no idea what it means. As long as you label someone a terrorist then automatically the population considers them evil without asking why? And if you try to reason with people and show them a second side of view either you are a terrorist too or you are helping terrorism by saying so.

Is terrorism defined as using unconventional means to kill innocent people on purpose? If so, then what is it when state sponsered militia's use conventional means that kill more than 3x the amount a so called terrorist kills?

Ultimatly as a society we can go back and forth on this subject matter till we are all blue in the face. Everything is a matter of perception. Who started it, whose land it was, why they do it, blah blah blah. The only thing that is of fact are numbers.

To me terrorism not only includes the intentional killing of innocent people but also the accidental killing of thousands of innocent people. Terrorism is using bombs strapped to yourself and blowing yourself up on a bus but it is also dropping bombs from a plane onto a bus. The final outcome is the same people are dead. Intentional or not the bottom line is what we have - and thats the numbers.

100,000 + Muslims/Arabs dead due to war
6,000 + Christains/Americans dead due to war
3,000 + Jewish/Israelis dead due to war

Take a look as those numbers and tell me who is the victim of systematic extermination here? Look at those numbers and tell me why one groups blood is not as important as another? There will still be those in denial. But numbers do not lie.

Now ask yourself this question one more time. Do you really know what terrorism is?

[JansenFan]

Not to debate the war or the definition of terrorism, I just have a comment about your numbers. If the war was taking place in the US, then there would be more Americans dead. Also, your should leave off the religions. Not all Americans dead were Christian, surely some are Muslim also, as well as some of the Isrealis. Perhaps even some of the Arabs killed were not Muslim.

[dnpmakkah]

Not to debate the war or the definition of terrorism, I just have a comment about your numbers. If the war was taking place in the US, then there would be more Americans dead. Also, your should leave off the religions. Not all Americans dead were Christian, surely some are Muslim also, as well as some of the Isrealis. Perhaps even some of the Arabs killed were not Muslim.

This is true. The reason why I listed the numbers in the first place is so we can have a solid base to work with. Debating back and forth is fun but in the end as humans we think/feel what we want to. I wanted the numbers to show what IS and not what COULD be.

Your point about the numbers being different if the war was in the U.S. is true. But since America is the one raging war over there I thought it would be best to stick with what is actually happening rather then what could have happened if it was another way.

You are also right regarding the labels I put on the dead. Granted not all dead Arabs are Muslims, Americans/Christians, or Israelis/Jews...but the majority of them are. The main reason I put it that way is because people on here and other places as well want to label this as a reglious war that Muslims have waged. "Muslims want to rid the world of Chrisians and Jews." I hear that all the time.

But looking at the numbers sheds some new light on that notion.

[REDEEMEDSKIN]

But looking at the numbers sheds some new light on that notion.

Again, though, those numbers are only a reflection of the conflict going on in the Middle East right NOW and don't necessarily disprove the notion that Muslims would want to rid the world of Christians and Jews either.

[UK Skins Fan]

Everyone in America and around the world needs to wake up! These people want to kill you, your children, and your entire family. Why is that so hard to understand? Everyone on this site knows how conservative I am but this is not a Republican or Democrat thing, this is a right and wrong thing. If this attack would have gone through today they would be over there celebrating the fact that they killed innocent children on the plane and the fact they destroyed thousands of families and innocent civilians! Each and every day they continue to plot and plot and come up with more sneaky ways to try and use there weapons and bombs to kill us. I have to believe that the one moment we put our guard down we will get hit again. I dont know where or when but that should show everyone how determined they really are. They are not fighting for A country or a piece of land. They are not fighting for oil or money. There goal is to destroy our nation and everything we are about. They want us to wake up fearing them everyday and to be scared to fly in our planes or drive over our bridges. The bottom line is that we need to stay united as one nation and protect our future for us and the next generation.

Well, the fact is that these people are not fighting for something - they are fighting against something. And that's why we will ultimately win. The free world has something to defend and fight for, but the terrorists are only fighting to destroy. They can fool themselves that they are fighting for a free Palestine, or an end to Western "occupation" of muslim lands, or to avenge their dead, but they are wrong. They act only to destroy life, liberty or some enemy that only exists in whatever twisted existence that their minds have created.

[UK Skins Fan]

dnpmakkah wrote:

To me terrorism not only includes the intentional killing of innocent people but also the accidental killing of thousands of innocent people.

The moral equivalance argument is a well rehearsed one - I simply cannot agree with your view. In the same way that the IRA sought to portray themselves as an army of liberation fighting on equal moral terms with the army of a sovereign nation, Islamic terrorists will seek to do the same. They are wrong, and I believe that you are too.

[dnpmakkah]

Again, though, those numbers are only a reflection of the conflict going on in the Middle East right NOW and don't necessarily disprove the notion that Muslims would want to rid the world of Christians and Jews either.

I see your point but personally for me it is really hard to swallow the notion that killing hundreds of thousands of people is ok. I will not be a slave to the media corrupting my mind into thinking death is needed. Even if it is supposedly accidental. You make valid points and for that I respect you and your views.

When Saddam ruled Iraq he killed a 100,000+ people after an assasination attempt on his life went wrong and we condemn it. But yet somehow we ingore th fact that the U.S. military is about to match or surpasse that number in only 4 years.

[yupchagee]

The real problem is the Empirialistic actions of Western European nations and the USA since WWII. The creation and placement of Israel smack in the middle of Arab lands being a prime example.

Smack in the middle of Arab land? Arab=Arabian peninsula. There have been a few Jews living in this land continuously for over 2ooo yrs. There have been a few Muslims for over 1000. Arabs ignored this area till Jews started moving in before WWI. The Turkish rulers accepted the Jews. In the 19 yrs that Jordan controlled E. Jerusalem NOT ONE Arab leader visited!

Imperialism since WWII? France & the UK c arved up the remains of the Turkish Empire after WWI. The US had no involvement. If western imperialism were the issue, attacks would be concentrated on Frabce & UK, not the US.

Completely pull out of all arab nations, end our blind and irrational support for Israel

Blind & irrational support? Truman recognized Israel but refused to sell so much as a single bullet. Eisenhour forced Israel to relinguish the Sinei & Gaza. Carter did everything but grab Begin by the throat at Camp David. Bush 41 was far from a good friend to Israel. Clinton did everything except (maybe) jump in bed with Arafat. Every US administration has urged Israeli "restraint" in defending its citizens.

The religions do not mix, there is more than just a "radical" element driving terrorism, it is a clash of cultures, values, and religion. We as western culture have imposed ourselves on a group of people that do not view the world the way we do. Terrorism (as we know today) began shortly after the creation of Israel and has been gaining strength since.

Arabs supported the Nazi's in WWII. Terror against Jews has been going on at least since the 20's, at least 2 1/2 decades before Israeli independence.

Are you saying that we have no right to choose our friends?

Are you saying that the only way to end terrorism is to surender to the terrorists.

Are you saying that Jews have no right to their own country?

There are words to describe these positions. Appeasement. Idiocy. Anti Semitism.

[yupchagee]

100,000 + Muslims/Arabs dead due to war
6,000 + Christains/Americans dead due to war
3,000 + Jewish/Israelis dead due to war

In WWII, more German, Italian & Japanese died than American, British & French. Does that mean that we were the bad guys then?

If someone hits you, will you only hit back with the exact same amount of force?

[dnpmakkah]

They can fool themselves that they are fighting for a free Palestine, or an end to Western "occupation" of muslim lands, or to avenge their dead, but they are wrong. They act only to destroy life, liberty or some enemy that only exists in whatever twisted existence that their minds have created.

Well Palestine isn't free, Israel does occupy Arab land (portions of it, I personally feel they should coexist) and the western world does interefere with Midde East life. So for the most part they do have an arguement. If during the Cold war - Russia invaded America, occupyed the land and imposed their views on our society, we too would be pissed.

What I don't get behind this logic is that if Muslims wanted to destroy western civilization why did it seem to only errupt once America became the sole superpower (coincedentally that was about the same time this country became arrogant). Muslims and Americans worked side by side during the Russian invasion of Afghanistan so if they hated America so much why would they have friendly relations with them at that time at all.

Things seemed to go downhill with Desert Storm, the presence in Saudi Arabia, and the complete obidence to Israel. You guys make it seem like Muslims were in some shell and on 9/11 they hatched with the sole purpse of killing Americans. Thats just ridiculous and crazy talk.

[dnpmakkah]

In WWII, more German, Italian & Japanese died than American, British & French. Does that mean that we were the bad guys then?

No, the US wasn't the bad guy then. Then again most people around the globe were FOR that war. MOST people today are AGAINST this war. Just because America was the good guy in one situation doesn't mean they will be right in every situation.

If someone hits you, will you only hit back with the exact same amount of force?

I do agree with you that when you are hit you have a right to hit back. But what do you define as a (hit)? Do you consider sanctions that cause death a hit? Do you consider occupying land a hit? Do you consider imposing your view on others by force a hit?

[yupchagee]

They can fool themselves that they are fighting for a free Palestine, or an end to Western "occupation" of muslim lands, or to avenge their dead, but they are wrong. They act only to destroy life, liberty or some enemy that only exists in whatever twisted existence that their minds have created.

Well Palestine isn't free, Israel does occupy Arab land (portions of it, I personally feel they should coexist) and the western world does interefere with Midde East life. So for the most part they do have an arguement. If during the Cold war - Russia invaded America, occupyed the land and imposed their views on our society, we too would be pissed.

"Palestine" never exixted as a political entity.

What I don't get behind this logic is that if Muslims wanted to destroy western civilization why did it seem to only errupt once America became the sole superpower (coincedentally that was about the same time this country became arrogant). Muslims and Americans worked side by side during the Russian invasion of Afghanistan so if they hated America so much why would they have friendly relations with them at that time at all.

Things seemed to go downhill with Desert Storm, the presence in Saudi Arabia, and the complete obidence to Israel. You guys make it seem like Muslims were in some shell and on 9/11 they hatched with the sole purpse of killing Americans. Thats just ridiculous and crazy talk.

Things went downhill long before that. Remember the Iran hostage situation? Muslims have the concept of the "Hudna". A temporary truce till they are stronger. Nobody said they were in a shell before 9/11. There were numerous terror attacks before then.

[crazyhorse1]

People will wake up, but only for a little while. Look how complacent people have become since 9/11/01.

Have you woken up yet to the fact that Iraquis aren't the problem and Al Qaida is, or do you still think we can wipe out Osame by bombing Baghdad?

Number of Iraqis involved in attempted airplane massacre: 0

So much for the notion that we can keep them from attacking here by attacking Iraq. What a joke! Yet another absurd rationale for starting this illegal war bites the dust. Only that idiot Santorum is likely to continue that mantra.

[yupchagee]

In WWII, more German, Italian & Japanese died than American, British & French. Does that mean that we were the bad guys then?

No, the US wasn't the bad guy then. Then again most people around the globe were FOR that war. MOST people today are AGAINST this war. Just because America was the good guy in one situation doesn't mean they will be right in every situation.

Then what is the point of posting those #'s?

If someone hits you, will you only hit back with the exact same amount of force?

I do agree with you that when you are hit you have a right to hit back. But what do you define as a (hit)? Do you consider sanctions that cause death a hit? Do you consider occupying land a hit? Do you consider imposing your view on others by force a hit?

What does this have to do with what I said? I was refering to the difference in casualities. My point is that those numbers don't show who is right or wrong.

[UK Skins Fan]

yupchagee wrote:

Are you saying that we have no right to choose our friends?

Are you saying that the only way to end terrorism is to surender to the terrorists.

Are you saying that Jews have no right to their own country?

There are words to describe these positions. Appeasement. Idiocy. Anti Semitism.

OK, just for fun, I'll say it - Jews have no right to their own country. Then again, if you use the 2000 year rule, perhaps they have a better claim than those who founded the United States. Frankly, I don't know how you decide who has a better right to a country or not. The traditional method of deciding was to have two or three sides hit each other with big sticks and the last man standing got the country. Then there's the good old fashioned imperialist route of carving places up for political convenience. An invasion is always a good route to a new country. I really don't know - we could argue that the UK should be a principality of France, or vice versa, or that Alaska should be Canadian, or Russian, or that Pakistan, Bangladesh and India should be one nation.

It's a shame we can't remove faith from the arguments about what is a state and what isn't. I would question the wisdom of establishing any state on the basis of religion, whatever that religion may be. But then I am equally disdainful of the political uses to which all institutionalised religions are put today.

[nuskins]

The real problem is the Empirialistic actions of Western European nations and the USA since WWII. The creation and placement of Israel smack in the middle of Arab lands being a prime example.

Smack in the middle of Arab land? Arab=Arabian peninsula. There have been a few Jews living in this land continuously for over 2ooo yrs. There have been a few Muslims for over 1000. Arabs ignored this area till Jews started moving in before WWI. The Turkish rulers accepted the Jews. In the 19 yrs that Jordan controlled E. Jerusalem NOT ONE Arab leader visited!

Imperialism since WWII? France & the UK c arved up the remains of the Turkish Empire after WWI. The US had no involvement. If western imperialism were the issue, attacks would be concentrated on Frabce & UK, not the US.

Completely pull out of all arab nations, end our blind and irrational support for Israel

Blind & irrational support? Truman recognized Israel but refused to sell so much as a single bullet. Eisenhour forced Israel to relinguish the Sinei & Gaza. Carter did everything but grab Begin by the throat at Camp David. Bush 41 was far from a good friend to Israel. Clinton did everything except (maybe) jump in bed with Arafat. Every US administration has urged Israeli "restraint" in defending its citizens.

The religions do not mix, there is more than just a "radical" element driving terrorism, it is a clash of cultures, values, and religion. We as western culture have imposed ourselves on a group of people that do not view the world the way we do. Terrorism (as we know today) began shortly after the creation of Israel and has been gaining strength since.

Arabs supported the Nazi's in WWII. Terror against Jews has been going on at least since the 20's, at least 2 1/2 decades before Israeli independence.

Are you saying that we have no right to choose our friends?

Are you saying that the only way to end terrorism is to surender to the terrorists.

Are you saying that Jews have no right to their own country?

There are words to describe these positions. Appeasement. Idiocy. Anti Semitism.

A few points to FUP your response:
1. Muslims have occupied the area that is now "Israel" since 600 BC, taking it from the Byzantine Empire, so even though Jews have claimed the area for the last 3000 years for religious purposes they never returned until the 1880's.

2.Notice I said Imperialism since WWII, and if you beleive that the US has not been Imperialistic since then, well there isn't much my words are going to do for ya. (BTW..the UK has been a target in recent times)

3.I don't know how you justify an argument that the US has not given unbridled support for Israel, "Israel" did not exist as a recognized state before 1948, prior to that they were occupiers under British mandate. The only reason that Israel still exists today is the support of the US! You are arguing about a single bullet 60yrs ago but 99% of the military weapons being used TODAY are from the US. Get real.....really you are the first person I have come into contact with that believes the US doesn't support Israel. "Restraint"??? Have you been keeping up with current events? The US is the only nation on the planet who has not called for Israel to immediately withdraw from Lebanon!

4. We have already chosen our friends, and lost many others in the last decade unfortunately due to idiotic foreign policy.

5. Surrender? Absolutely not, but withdrawing from an area on the opposite side of the world embroiled in a bitter religious war that has been going on for the last 1000 years is not really surrendering. Let them fight it out, honestly it is going to come to that and it maybe what has to happen, but why do we need to be there? (other than oil) Do you think that by occupying Iraq we are gaining anything? It is not the "frontline" of the fight on terrorism, the majority of those killed are Iraqi and we are only planting the seeds for future hatred.

6. Jews have the right to their own country, but they need to figure it out without the US involvement.

7.I am not an idiot, nor am I anti-semetic, only realistic. My best friend of 25 yrs is Jewish and he and I have great discussions about the topic. (BTW..his ass is sitting in a tent today in Iraq fighting a war that he himself has doubts about)

The USA needs to worry about itself at this point in history. Many people fail to realize that our govt. is still in the "experimental stage". Most people in Europe and the Middle East live in homes that are older than our country and our form of govt.

My point is...We need to step back and re-evaulate our foreign policy and the far reaching implications of our actions. We need to wean our country off of OIL and use our own human resources and technology to better this world. Instead of selling weapons of death we need to be leaders in the technological revolution of sustainable renewable energy.

My first post had everything to do with the USA and was not meant to discredit or slander any other nation.

[yupchagee]

A few points to FUP your response:
1. Muslims have occupied the area that is now "Israel" since 600 BC, taking it from the Byzantine Empire, so even though Jews have claimed the area for the last 3000 years for religious purposes they never returned until the 1880's.

This proves total ignorance of history. THERE WERE NO MUSLIMS in 600 BCE (No Christians either for that matter). It was even way before the Byzantine Empire.

[Countertrey]

Muslims have occupied the area that is now "Israel" since 600 BC

You are off by over 1200 years. Islam traces it's roots to the 7th century AD.

[dnpmakkah]

I don't think either side is at fault for the current situation. If we trace our roots back in time we wouldn't be in this mess if it wasn't for Eve. She was told not to eat the apple or else.

Guess what "or else" happened and man as been at war with eachother ever since. There you have it. I blame women for this mess.

I WAS JUST KIDDING. I know I am probably about to get an ear full from some of the ladies on this board but it was just a joke to bring some humour into the thread so please go easy on me.

[crazyhorse1]

A few points to FUP your response:
1. Muslims have occupied the area that is now "Israel" since 600 BC, taking it from the Byzantine Empire, so even though Jews have claimed the area for the last 3000 years for religious purposes they never returned until the 1880's.

This proves total ignorance of history. THERE WERE NO MUSLIMS in 600 BCE (No Christians either for that matter). It was even way before the Byzantine Empire.

I think he means that the people who are presently Muslins have occupied Israel since 600 BC.

On another matter, the word Jew is difficult to define. Jews are neither a race or necessarily of a particular religion. Thousands of
Christian Jews stayed in the middle east when many fled the Romans. They are still there today. There are also plenty of Jews all over Europe and the United states who accept both Christ and Mohammed, just as there many Muslims who accept Christ as a prophet and thousands of Jews who are not of a particular so-called racial stock.

The truth of things is not so simple as the right wind would have it. The word truthiness is a good one. Thanks to Colbert for coming up with it to describe facts based on the way conseratives want them to be.

[crazyhorse1]

A few points to FUP your response:
1. Muslims have occupied the area that is now "Israel" since 600 BC, taking it from the Byzantine Empire, so even though Jews have claimed the area for the last 3000 years for religious purposes they never returned until the 1880's.

This proves total ignorance of history. THERE WERE NO MUSLIMS in 600 BCE (No Christians either for that matter). It was even way before the Byzantine Empire.

I think he means that the people who are presently Muslins have occupied Israel since 600 BC.

The word Jew is difficult to define. Jews are neither a race or necessarily of a particular religion. Thousands of
Christian Jews stayed in the middle east when many fled the Romans. They are still there today. There are also plenty of Jews all over Europe and the United states who accept both Christ and Mohammed, just as there many Muslims who accept Christ as a prophet and thousands of Jews who are not of a particular so-called racial stock.

The truth of things is not so simple as the right wind would have it. The word truthiness is a good one. Thanks to Colbert for coming up with it to describe facts based on the way conseratives want them to be.

[yupchagee]

I think he means that the people who are presently Muslins have occupied Israel since 600 BC.

Still an absurd statement & It's not what he said. What about the fact that the Byzintine Empire didn't exist at that time either.

The word Jew is difficult to define. Jews are neither a race or necessarily of a particular religion. Thousands of
Christian Jews stayed in the middle east when many fled the Romans. They are still there today. There are also plenty of Jews all over Europe and the United states who accept both Christ and Mohammed, just as there many Muslims who accept Christ as a prophet and thousands of Jews who are not of a particular so-called racial stock.

More nonsense. I don't think anyone ever said that Jews are a race, we aren't. I have many friends who have converted to Judaism, it is impossible to convert to a race. It is not possible to be Jewish & accept Jesus as the Messiah or Mohamad as a prophet. "Christain Jew" is an oxymoron right up there with civil war, conventional wisdom & liberal thinker.