Nemo vs. Lorenzo Neal

[The Hogster]

Watching several teams enjoy success with a Fullback with speed as the lead blocker, I looked into the guy who sets the standard. Stature wise Lorenzo Neal at 5-11 255 has the speed and power to get to the next level and get good blocks on linebackers, safeties and even corners...Nemo 5-10 250 is similar and I think would excel in that role.

The reasons I say this are: 1) With our wide receiver situation Chris ey becomes vital to this offense in the passing game. We often split him in the slot and leave Clinton with no lead blocker...this may be effective by getting some packages with him out there while ey can remain in his split position. That way when ey goes into the backfield it doesn't automatically signal a run. Sometimes we telegraph what we are doing because in passing situations ey goes in motion or splits out. In runs, he stops his motion in the backfield and it looks more obvious.

2) Portis like LT and other fast backs hits the first line of defense very fast...making a guy who can really move downhill in a hurry a great asset for the faster or (some would say impatient backs) like Clinton.

I love Sellers in there as well..I was just thinking of how we can get some different looks back there while incorporating that fast, downhill running threat with a powerful lead blocker like Neal. I know this is no video game, but I would love to see a guy like McCUne get back there and lead block..haha...no seriously

[Chris Luva Luva]

I love your post. I haven't been on here as much as I used to but this has to be one of the best threads Ive seen in a month or so.

I like your idea a lot and I want to see our run game improved. I want running the become successful and a staple of this offense. Right now we have to pass to set up the run and that seems backwards to me. We can't continue to waste a talent like Portis. We get these stars and dont do the things needed to make the shine here like they did elsewhere. I'll be looking to see how you guys feel about placing Nemo in such a role. I actually think they're grooming Manuel White to be Sellers successor while leaving Nemo as more of a traditional RB. If they keep Nemo which I think they will I think Betts is going to get cut.

[tcwest10]

Larry Centers was one of the very best in that role. Wouldn't mind having him come back to impart some of the things he picked up along the way.

[The Hogster]

Centers was great..I seem to remember him being especially good at catching balls out of the backfield...I think he had around 100 catches one season.

I think we could use this method pretty effectively if we give Nemo an opportunity...coming from a Military background, I am sure he is a tough guy who wouldn't mind running full speed and blowing up a linebacker...I really think McCune wouldn't mind either.

[ArizonaHOG]

I love the thread...this is "football talk".

BTW centers caught the winning TD pass when we clinched a playoff spot the last time (way too long ago).

I agree that we are showing our hand by having ey split wide. But, we don't have much of a choice with injuries at teh WR position. Nemo would be an option at fullback so we an use ey in passing routes. I'm also thinking of using Sean Taylor as a lead blocker. Did you see the hit he put on Lorenzo Neal? It was probably the hardest he's ever been hit. Taylor would knock the snot out of any saftey in run support, and most linebackers, too.

Anyway, great thread....football talk...I love it.

[Chris Luva Luva]

I love the thread...this is "football talk".

BTW centers caught the winning TD pass when we clinched a playoff spot the last time (way too long ago).

I agree that we are showing our hand by having ey split wide. But, we don't have much of a choice with injuries at teh WR position. Nemo would be an option at fullback so we an use ey in passing routes. I'm also thinking of using Sean Taylor as a lead blocker. Did you see the hit he put on Lorenzo Neal? It was probably the hardest he's ever been hit. Taylor would knock the snot out of any saftey in run support, and most linebackers, too.

Anyway, great thread....football talk...I love it.

We dont usually get threads like this till the offseason. Playing Taylor consistenly on offense is too much of a risk. He's too important to this defense. His forced fumble in Dallas is one of the main reasons were still in the playoff hunt. He is a game/season changer.

[The Hogster]

I was light hearted when I mentioned Robert McCune as a lead blocker...but I am really serious about it and here is why.

1) Lead blocking in the manner a fullback does requires a recklessness that is only paralleled by players that excel on Special teams...i.e. the wedge buster...guys who take pride in blasting off with the sole purpose of throwing 240 plus pounds of mass into the face/chest/waist of another 240 plus pound man running at you. I think McCune, Nemo, and Sellers fit this mold...of the three McCune and Nemo are the fastest.

2) I love Mike Sellers...and I am not suggesting a wholesale change, but on certain power plays and plays going off tackle or toss sweeps...it would be awesome to have a guy who can head downhill and beat Portis to the point of attack. Portis is quick to the LOS and sometimes beats his blockers there, but with a guy like McCune or Nemo (who also run in the 4.5-4.6 range and are big strong military guys) they can bust a LB in the mouth and have Portis squeeze right off of their backside before the defense has time to react.


I just recall on several of LT's big runs...Neal running for about 25 yards almost paralell to Tomlinson...we need that kind of force escorting Portis, as we have seen last week, when he gets to the open field with blockers...he has that game breaking potential.

[2SeanTaylor1]

sometimes i wish we had a direct contact to mr. gibbs, the ppl in this boards have so many great idea, i have no doubt in my mind, if all of the ppl here coach a team together, they could put one hell of a run, assumin we'll work together wit no problems

[Steve Spurrier III]

1) Lead blocking in the manner a fullback does requires a recklessness that is only paralleled by players that excel on Special teams...i.e. the wedge buster...guys who take pride in blasting off with the sole purpose of throwing 240 plus pounds of mass into the face/chest/waist of another 240 plus pound man running at you. I think McCune, Nemo, and Sellers fit this mold...of the three McCune and Nemo are the fastest.

This implies that any football player with adequete size who is also willing to lay his body on the line is capable of being dominate fullback (like Neal). The reality is that run-blocking is a specific skill, and a player like Lorenzo Neal is one in a generation.

Might some of the players we have listed (Sellars, Nemiah, even McCune) develop into solid lead blockers? Of course. But it takes so much more than that to be truly special. Outstanding run-blocking requires raw talent - and Neal's got it. I somehow doubt that our players have the same gift.

NOTE: Larry Centers was absolutley fantastic, but he was perhaps the complete opposite of Lorenzo Neal. The most touches Neal has ever gotten in a season is 52 (1996) - as he is the exceptional lead blocker. Centers, on the other hand, touched the ball an amazing 205 times in 1996 (go figure). The fact that they were both "fullbacks" is funny, considering how different they were.

[SkinsFanInHawai'i]

What do you guys think about 3 backs, 2 wideout formations?

Maybe
Portis, ey, Sellers
Portis, ey, Nemo
Portis, ey, Royal

[The Hogster]

1) Lead blocking in the manner a fullback does requires a recklessness that is only paralleled by players that excel on Special teams...i.e. the wedge buster...guys who take pride in blasting off with the sole purpose of throwing 240 plus pounds of mass into the face/chest/waist of another 240 plus pound man running at you. I think McCune, Nemo, and Sellers fit this mold...of the three McCune and Nemo are the fastest.

This implies that any football player with adequete size who is also willing to lay his body on the line is capable of being dominate fullback (like Neal). The reality is that run-blocking is a specific skill, and a player like Lorenzo Neal is one in a generation.



NOTE: Larry Centers was absolutley fantastic, but he was perhaps the complete opposite of Lorenzo Neal. The most touches Neal has ever gotten in a season is 52 (1996) - as he is the exceptional lead blocker. Centers, on the other hand, touched the ball an amazing 205 times in 1996 (go figure). The fact that they were both "fullbacks" is funny, considering how different they were.

I agree for the most part, but sometimes you find that a guy has a gift for doing somethings by putting him in that situation. For example, who would have thought that Tom Brady would throw just as many TD's in the Super Bowl to Mike Vrabel as he has to Deion Branch, or David Patten...but he has.

Who would think that Troy Brown would fill in at cornerback until you put him out there....heck who would have thought that Mike Sellers would develop into a TD receiving threat?

I just think that sometimes you have to give a guy a shot....a guy like McCune or Nemo I am sure want to contribute to the team...and just by virtue of having that size, power and speed doesn't automatically mean they can play at Neal's level, but we may find that we can get a little more out of those guys if we gave them some shots doing other things. Like I said, its not a video game, but football players are football players...and just because Nemo was drafted as a RB doesn't mean he can't lead block, and just because McCune is an LB doesn't mean he can't lead block...in fact because McCune is familiar with that position may give him an advantage taking on LB's...I don't know, but I think it would be something worth exploring in some packages.

Might some of the players we have listed (Sellars, Nemiah, even McCune) develop into solid lead blockers? Of course. But it takes so much more than that to be truly special. Outstanding run-blocking requires raw talent - and Neal's got it. I somehow doubt that our players have the same gift.

[Redskin in Canada]

Interesting top post. Good follow-up thread of posts. It will NOT happen.

Not because I agree or disagree with ANY of the arguments presented in any of the posts above. I do not think that it CAN happen this season because our system and playbook is already in place in a completely different manner. Nor do I feel that it may happen in the future.

ey will not move to become a traditional TE. He is a HB and plays great as such, perhaps not as great a blocker as we had in the past (and getting better at it every season) but he may become one of the best HB at catching the ball in our history.

Our system needs far more urgently a RELIABLE and EFFECTIVE second receiver. We have not had production at all from that position. Patten was pushed around too much by single athletic coverage and my boy Taylor Jacobs has not proven himself yet (unfortunately).

I would argue this proposal differently with a question starting with the fundamental premise of the first post in this thread:

Is the Skins offense in the future, let alone at this stage of the season, better off trying to accommodate a new blocking system based on a traditional full-back blocking from the backfield rather than keeping the same Joe Gibbs system with a REAL threat with a reliable, effective and productive second receiver?

To me, the ansswer is obvious. In the best fantasy scenarios, I would rather have not one but two Santana Moss running around downfield than a full-back in the back TO MAKE OUR RUNNING GAME BETTER.

To run well, a defense must feel threatened by more than one WR and a HB or TE. It needs to feel the urgency of not knowing whom to double cover downfield. That was the beauty of the Monk-Clarke tandem. One hurt you, the other finished you up. As a result the running was better having a HB (bigger than most FBs) paving the way for our RB.

When well executed with the right personnel, our system is BETTER than Denvers's system.

My argument is that we have a personnel problem at the 2nd spot, not a system problem. How do you like that?

Interesting and provoking thought by the Hogstera and others though. I will give you great credit.

[Hoss]

Great thread guys. Thanks.

[The Hogster]

It doesn't have to happen this season, and I think we are selling the Gibbs system a little short. He has adjusted to the talent that he had in the past. If you read the chat with Joe Bugel on the "other" website, he says that they don't even run the same blocking schemes as the old Counter Trey system. They have already changed the blocking schemes. We have used a fullback in a different capacity before. Anyone remember Gerald Riggs? The guy didn't catch a TD in 2 seasons, but he scored 11 TD's in 1991 running out of the backfield.

I just think it should be something to look into for certain packages...not that we should do a wholesale change of the offense because I don't think we should. In fact if we had a guy like Heath Miller, Bubba Franks or Dallas Clark at TE, then we could accomplish the same thing by having three to four receiving options on a given running play.

The question isn't whether it could work for us, I think it's pretty obvious that using a fullback instead of an H-Back to block is only an issue of personell...I do think it remains to be seen whether or not Nemo, or someother person could be that guy. I think it's worth a shot and if not with the guys we have now, then perhaps with an experienced guy.

[welch]

Gerald Riggs scored his TD's as the RB. The designated TD scorer from short range. Byner was the main RB. Ricky Ervins was the fast changeup from Byner.

Riggs had been number 1 RB, brought in to replace George Rogers, who had replaced Riggins.

In the Gibbs system, ey needs to improve his blocking, and the team needs at least a second WR -- and maybe a third -- so they don't need to rely so much on ey as number 2 receiver.

Ideally, that second WR should be big, tough: a hard runner once the've made the catch plus a mean blocker to support the run. Someone who can slip in a H-back and block for the run or give them three dangerous WR's.

Maybe someone who who had been a tall RB and effective in college, but with great hands. Somebody accustomed to hitting.

See RiC's avatar for the model, or mine for another.

*

By the way, Gibbs likes sometimes to throw a guard in as H-back. A skillful blocker, like Ray Brown. That's almost what Mike Sellers can do.

[ArizonaHOG]

I love the thread...this is "football talk".

BTW centers caught the winning TD pass when we clinched a playoff spot the last time (way too long ago).

I agree that we are showing our hand by having ey split wide. But, we don't have much of a choice with injuries at teh WR position. Nemo would be an option at fullback so we an use ey in passing routes. I'm also thinking of using Sean Taylor as a lead blocker. Did you see the hit he put on Lorenzo Neal? It was probably the hardest he's ever been hit. Taylor would knock the snot out of any saftey in run support, and most linebackers, too.

Anyway, great thread....football talk...I love it.

We dont usually get threads like this till the offseason. Playing Taylor consistenly on offense is too much of a risk. He's too important to this defense. His forced fumble in Dallas is one of the main reasons were still in the playoff hunt. He is a game/season changer.

I agree that we must use Taylor selectively on offense due to his importance to the D. I'm just saying that an occasional snap on offsense as a lead blocker could "hide" our play selection. He can be used effectively as a lead blocker, and can catch the ball, so defenses would not be able to key on pass plays with ey split wide. Thanks for the opportunity to clarify my thoughts.

Man, I'm so excited to see the Skins live tomorrow in Tempe. My wife (a steelers fan) asked me if I had something "redksins" she could wear tomorrow to the game. I pulled out a very old sweatshirt for her to wear. Slowly but surely, she is converting.

Hail Redskins!!

[The Hogster]

I am converting my girlfriend too. She is not an NFL fan, but she now is becoming a football fan and a REdskins fan.

She said that she hates my mood after a loss, so she'll root for us every Sunday just for that fact alone.

[ArizonaHOG]

Hey, man....whatever it takes to convert her, do it. Once she does convert she'll bleed burgandy and gold forever.

Hail!!

[The Hogster]

Hey, man....whatever it takes to convert her, do it. Once she does convert she'll bleed burgandy and gold forever.

Hail!!

Haha...I make her watch the Clinton Portis interviews every Thursday...she's in medical school so she thinks he has emotional problems but she thinks its funny.

She knows Santana Moss, Sean Taylor, Clinton Portis and Lavar Arrington..she knows Joe Salavea because he had plantar fastiasis or whatever and she was studying the foot at the time..when I mentioned Lavar the other day...she said "is he still freelancing?" So at that point I knew that she was paying attention.

She's coming along...

[Redskin in Canada]

See RiC's avatar for the model, or mine for another.

You beat me to this punch line Welch.

I agree with your post. I have kept my eyes open for "Mr. Right" at the 2nd spot.. I do not think Patten is the guy and Taylor Jacobs is not as tough and injury-free as I would like. He might become our 3rd receiver depending on his performance in games down the stretch.

[ArizonaHOG]

Hey, man....whatever it takes to convert her, do it. Once she does convert she'll bleed burgandy and gold forever.

Hail!!

Haha...I make her watch the Clinton Portis interviews every Thursday...she's in medical school so she thinks he has emotional problems but she thinks its funny.

She knows Santana Moss, Sean Taylor, Clinton Portis and Lavar Arrington..she knows Joe Salavea because he had plantar fastiasis or whatever and she was studying the foot at the time..when I mentioned Lavar the other day...she said "is he still freelancing?" So at that point I knew that she was paying attention.

She's coming along...

Sounds like you are a great mentor. Keep up the good work. Gotta run so I can head down to Tempe for the game today. Go Skins!!

[JPM36]

It sounds like a good idea in the theory, but if Nemo was ready to be a lead blocker Coach Gibbs would have him in there.


Just trust Coach.

[welch]

Hogster wrote

That way when ey goes into the backfield it doesn't automatically signal a run. Sometimes we telegraph what we are doing because in passing situations ey goes in motion or splits out. In runs, he stops his motion in the backfield and it looks more obvious.

As I remember the "antiquated" Gibbs offense, the H-back is supposed to be moving when the ball is snapped and he is lead blocker. It used to seem that every play had guys baking off the line, guys stepping up to the line, someone in motion, then followed by someone else in motion the opposite direction.

I've wondered about ey's stopping. Is that, perhaps, a simplification that Gibbs installed last season when the offense just kept getting illegal motion penalties?