The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Deadskins wrote:

Countertrey wrote:

OK, so would you rather have a crappy season this year just to get a higher draft pick next year?

I don't know that this is what Vet is arguing... I know it's not my point. I'm simply stating the fact... If McNabb does well, it degrades our chances of finding our future quarterback via the draft. That is a simple fact.

I happen to think that McNabb is well worth what we traded...and am content with the skill that Allen and Shanahan have demonstrated that they will figure something out... but, if we end up winning a playoff game or two, it won't likely be through the draft... without a lot of help from lady luck.

I still disagree. We have the same chance of finding a franchise QB through the draft, regardless. We just have to be willing to pay the price.

You also have someone willing to play... and they usually want way too much...
That's why such trades are so rare these days.

Sorry Vet, you've got to bear with me here - I don't know as much about all this as you do

here goes ...... I think we'll do well with McNabb, but the chances of us making the playoffs are pretty far fetched IMO, .... AND THEN, winning a playoff game, I'm sorry, that's just not happening - FINALLY, there is NO WAY we end up drafting at #28 or higher next year - NO WAY


BUT - if McNabb can do all that, despite how many games he plays, then who cares - it's a huge win for this franchise


So, let's go back a step .... you think we'll do really well and you then say "well we gave up too much for him because now we're really screwed - we are a top 4 team in the NFL and we have no chance of getting a good QB anymore BECAUSE this McNabb guy is too good..... ARE YOU KIDDING ME

PLEASE - do you really think we are ending up a top 5 team this year AND, if by some miracle we do, there's something wrong with that

please break it to me gently, what am I missing here?

Wahoo McDaniels wrote:

Countertrey wrote:First of all, McNabb isn't a "Franchise QB". If he was, his last franchise, a hated NFC East rival, would have kept him.

Second, draft position means nothing as to whether you'll find a Franchise QB or not.


Here are the top passers in the league last year...how many were Top 10 picks?

The answer: 2.

In fact, 2 of the Top 10 weren't drafted at all and 6 weren't even in the 1st round.

What does any of this have to do with whether McNabb is/was a franchise quarterback? Had you actually READ my post, you would have seen that I was commenting on the fact that good performances in the future by McNabb IMPACTS OUR ABILITY TO GET A FUTURE FRANCHISE QUARTERBACK VIA THE DRAFT. PERIOD.

You were in such a hurry to dispute my assertion, that you let your agenda interpret my comment for you. Brilliant.

Second, despite your assertions, most top quarterbacks are found in the top half of the first round. Period. The Tom Brady's and the Kurt Warners of the world are the exceptions. The road to mediocrity is littered with 3rd round quarterbacks. You can make the arbitrary cut off at 10 if you want, but the reality is, below the first 2 or 3 picks, team need determines the pick, for the most part. It is nothing to find a top 5 talented QB falling to the 20th or 24th pick. That does you no good if your team performance gives you the 28th pick in the first round, though, does it?

THAT was my point.

And, regarding your comment that McNabb was not a franchise QB at Philly because if he were, they would not have traded him?

You DO know that it was Philly that traded Jurgensen to us, right?

Yeah, Philly traded us Sonny...40 years ago. I can't believe Andy Reid made that trade.

But once again, your assertion is [shockingly] wrong. How many were Top 15 picks? Let me give you a guess...it's far less than "MOST" as you state. 14 started the year at QB (there's 32 teams) and this year it looks like there's going to be 14. In fact, 14 of the QB's weren't drafted in the 1st Round.

The truth of the matter is that drafts are made in the later rounds. If you draft well in the later rounds and maybe hit on some starters (including QBs) you are set up for long term success. Here lies the Skins problem. We trade all of our picks and never are able to build for the future. Thus the reason for the current state of affairs.

My point is player personnel needs to find players period. It doesn't have to be a QB in the 1st Round. We have the worst of all worlds. We can't find players in the draft and then we trade for them causing long term problems. Then we change offensive and defensive gameplans with reckless abandon and the result is we don't have the personnel that fits the gameplan.

We went from Ball Control (Marty) to Fun'N'Gun (Spurrier) to Ball Control (Gibbs) to West Coast (Zorn) to Vertical Passing/Zone Blocking on Offense. All required different players and a mass purging when the new regime came to town.

Now we've changed from the 4-3 to the 3-4 for some unknown reason. WE DON'T HAVE THE LINEBACKERS TO PLAY THIS DEFENSE.

You are just all over the place, aren't you?

My point: Franchise quarterbacks are almost always found early in the first round

Your attempt at a counterpoint:
Many starting quarterbacks are found later in the draft (note: "starting quarterback" doesn't neccessarily equate to franchise quarterback... actually, it rarely does) AND BESIDES! We don't have the linebackers to play this defense.

Yes... changing the subject always works when you have no argument...

nicely played!

IMO, college talent means little when it comes to the NFL. How many NCAA passing records does Peyton Manning hold? Peyton was picked second behind Ryan Leaf.

Draft position also means little. The Brady/Romo argument has been beaten to death, but it makes a valid point.

Look at Brent Favre and Drew Brees as examples of QB's that were discarded by their original teams qnd went on to earn Super Bowl rings.

The most important issues, IMO, for finding that Franchise QB are the team he's playing with and the coach he's playing for.

Draft position is only important when to coach covets a particular QB or player and fears they will be drafted before their turn. Nobody intentionally plays for the number one draft pick.

I think the secret is you don't find the best QB for your system, you find the best system for your QB. Play to his strengths and you'll look like a draft genius or a free agent master. The Shanahans seem to follow this philosophy; at least based on what they say.

The Iggles can laugh all they want but Kolbe had a bad game last night according to some media pundits.

I honestly didn't like the idea of picking up McNabb for 2 reasons....
1- he's aging and injury prone.
2- he was an Iggle. lol.

But in hind sight it appears to be an awsome move since he's able to make plays we never saw from JC. I think the Iggles will have their issues with Kolbe or I atleast hope so.

The only people laughing are the Redskins fans who actually watched the Eagles preseason offense. I hope Korn on the Kolb shows better when the lights come on.

Right now, that offense looks horrid.

Kolb hasn't scored yet. Last night he posted a whopping 39.2 passer rating with a 4.1 yard average. And, he (the more "accurate" passer) was 11 of 25. That's under 50 percent folks.

K. Kolb 11/25 103 4.1 0 1 39.2

Countertrey wrote:You are just all over the place, aren't you?

My point: Franchise quarterbacks are almost always found early in the first round

Your attempt at a counterpoint:
Many starting quarterbacks are found later in the draft (note: "starting quarterback" doesn't neccessarily equate to franchise quarterback... actually, it rarely does) AND BESIDES! We don't have the linebackers to play this defense.

Yes... changing the subject always works when you have no argument...

nicely played!

What? I have shown you your premise is dead wrong. How am I changing the argument? Your initial argument was that MOST "top QBs" are found in the 1st half of the 1st round. I just proved to you it wasn't true in the previous post where I showed that most of the leaders in QB Rating were drafted outside the 1st round and just as many were undrafted. Now I just showed that MOST of the starting QBs are not Top Half of 1st Round guys.

Oh, so now it's no longer "Top QB" it's most FRANCHISE QBs are drafted in the 1st half of the 1st round. Stick to an argument. Don't change it every time you're previous assertion is disproved.

Here are my FRANCHISE guys last year: Favre, Manning, Manning
Rivers, Delhomme (was -- led to Super Bowl played 7 yrs w same team), Rogers, Brees, Hasselback, Warner, Schaub, Romo, Roethlisberger, Ryan, Palmer, Cutler

8 guys outside the 1st half of the 1st round and 7 guys in the 1st half of the 1st round. This is getting tiring disproving every one of your assertions.

Give me YOUR definition of a FRANCHISE QB and then let's see if we can disprove this one too. Let me guess, in order to be deemed a FRANCHISE QB by Countertrey you must meet the following entry criteria: be drafted in the first half of the 1st round.

The Hogster wrote:The only people laughing are the Redskins fans who actually watched the Eagles preseason offense. I hope Korn on the Kolb shows better when the lights come on.

Right now, that offense looks horrid.

Kolb hasn't scored yet. Last night he posted a whopping 39.2 passer rating with a 4.1 yard average. And, he (the more "accurate" passer) was 11 of 25. That's under 50 percent folks.

K. Kolb 11/25 103 4.1 0 1 39.2

& if Kolb continues to struggle, behind him are Vick, would you feel comfortable with him as your starting QB? (Now, not before he went to jail) & Mike Kafka, 4th rnd pick. Maybe they think he'ss metamorphasize into a franchise QB.

My question was "why are the Eagles fan's laughing" .... after the latest game reports, I think I have the answer

they now realize the full implications of what they did when they traded McNabb

are you kidding me - this was a HUGE mistake - they hurt their team a little and they helped a division rival BIG TIME - HUGE mistake

Wahoo McDaniels wrote:
What? I have shown you your premise is dead wrong. How am I changing the argument? Your initial argument was that MOST "top QBs" are found in the 1st half of the 1st round. I just proved to you it wasn't true in the previous post where I showed that most of the leaders in QB Rating were drafted outside the 1st round and just as many were undrafted. Now I just showed that MOST of the starting QBs are not Top Half of 1st Round guys.

Oh, so now it's no longer "Top QB" it's most FRANCHISE QBs are drafted in the 1st half of the 1st round. Stick to an argument. Don't change it every time you're previous assertion is disproved. <snip>

Give me YOUR definition of a FRANCHISE QB and then let's see if we can disprove this one too. Let me guess, in order to be deemed a FRANCHISE QB by Countertrey you must meet the following entry criteria: be drafted in the first half of the 1st round.

Nice job revising my premise... My initial post on this topic:

Vet's point should not be overlooked.

When is the last time the Redskins drafted a true "franchise" quarterback?

While we hope that it will work out, the more successful McNabb is, the less likely we are to find that future franchise quarterback in the draft.

My SECOND post on this topic:

Just curious, chief... who do you consider those franchise quarterbacks to have been.

In my mind, there have been only 3 franchise quarterbacks in Redskins history...
Jurgensen
The Little General
Slingin' Sammy.
Maybe you could squeeze in Theisman...
Only Labaron and Baugh were drafted... that means that the Redskins have not drafted a franchise quarterback since 1950... IMHO.

We have had many quality quarterbacks, but few were drafted

. There were a couple who shone brightly but briefly (Rypien) there were occasional journeymen who grabbed the golden ring (Doug Williams and[almost] Billy Kilmer), but there were boneheads who liked to headbutt concrete (Schraeder) and who just couldn't figure out the pro game (Shuler). Trent Edwards was drafted... and, except for a devastating injury, might have become the franchise quarterback... for the St. Louis Rams...

There were unfortunates who either came along at the wrong time and were destroyed by the coach alone (Ramsey) or through a frustrating confluence of scheme, talent, leadership, and mind just never matching up (Campbell). The Redskins history with Quarterbacks had been truly, Boom or Bust.

At this point, it should be clear that I am specifically talking about FRANCHISE quarterbacks, AND that franchise quarterbacks are something MORE than starting, or even top quarterbacks (unless, apparently, you are into revising the clear line of thought of a poster... ). It should also be clear that I AM NOT SAYING that you can't find "quality" quarterbacks later in the draft...

Then, YOU decide to enter the discussion:

First of all, McNabb isn't a "Franchise QB".

Do you care, at this point, to identify where I said he IS? (though I would argue that he could make a strong claim of such in Philly)

You go on...

If he was, his last franchise, a hated NFC East rival, would have kept him.

Of course, we know my response to this... somehow, though, that it was 44 years ago, it makes a difference... interesting... Yet, 44 years ago, the Eagles traded an exceptional quarterback to the Redskins... We already know how that story ends.

Second, draft position means nothing as to whether you'll find a Franchise QB or not.


Here are the top passers in the league last year...how many were Top 10 picks?

Hmmm... Top passers... hmmm... WHO's ARGUMENT IS THIS??? Certainly, not mine.

So, yes, it does appear that someone was twisting the topic here...

My next point is...:

Second, despite your assertions, most top quarterbacks are found in the top half of the first round. Period. The Tom Brady's and the Kurt Warners of the world are the exceptions.

Would you assert otherwise????

The road to mediocrity is littered with 3rd round quarterbacks. You can make the arbitrary cut off at 10 if you want, but the reality is, below the first 2 or 3 picks, team need determines the pick, for the most part. It is nothing to find a top 5 talented QB falling to the 20th or 24th pick. That does you no good if your team performance gives you the 28th pick in the first round, though, does it?

Unless you are just not looking, you can see that I clearly understand that coveted quarterbacks can, and do fall in the draft... Pulp has already pointed out that, beyond a certain point, your odds begin to drop off dramatically. That's a simple fact. There is a reason players drop in the draft... you can find gems there, but NOBODY will COUNT on it. If you want the best odds of finding a quarterback who is likely to become a true FRANCHISE quarterback, you are not going to wait till the 3rd or 4th round to do it. Who the heck argues otherwise????

No one is going to revise my arguments for me. I think my thoughts were pretty clear... it's not up to me to read them for you.

Suffice it to say (as you should be able to tell from my list of Redskins franchise quarterbacks), my list is much shorter than yours.

SkinsJock wrote:Sorry Vet, you've got to bear with me here - I don't know as much about all this as you do

here goes ...... I think we'll do well with McNabb, but the chances of us making the playoffs are pretty far fetched IMO, .... AND THEN, winning a playoff game, I'm sorry, that's just not happening - FINALLY, there is NO WAY we end up drafting at #28 or higher next year - NO WAY


BUT - if McNabb can do all that, despite how many games he plays, then who cares - it's a huge win for this franchise


So, let's go back a step .... you think we'll do really well and you then say "well we gave up too much for him because now we're really screwed - we are a top 4 team in the NFL and we have no chance of getting a good QB anymore BECAUSE this McNabb guy is too good..... ARE YOU KIDDING ME

PLEASE - do you really think we are ending up a top 5 team this year AND, if by some miracle we do, there's something wrong with that

please break it to me gently, what am I missing here?

It was theory. With a bit of exaggeration to make a point.

Regardless, I'm done with this. I think CT and I are on the same page except I wished we hadn't traded for him in the first place, but I've accepted and gotten past it. I'm tired of reiterating and repeating hte same opinion b/c it's different and get's 'misinterpreted.'


Here are my opinions one last time:
I support Shan/Allen. I think they're doing a good job so far for the most part. Supporting them does not mean I will agree with every choice they make. This in no way says I think I know more than they do, but I do have opinions and I will support my own critical thoughts, even if they differ from others.
I think we overpaid for McNabb, but I've accepted it and ready to see what we do with McNabb as our QB. I'm still concerned with our long term QB, but again, I support Shan/Allen. That doesn't mean I cannot be concerned.

I think the last franchise QB we drafted was Trent Green. Unfortunately, not for our franchise.

Once again...what is your criteria for a franchise QB? No criteria supports your hypothesis.

You are just as likely to find a franchise QB in the 5th round as the 1st.

Your beloved Jurgenson was a 4th round draft pick. Lebaron was drafted in the 10th round. Theismann was a 4th rounder, Rypien was a 6th Rounder and Trent Green was an 8th Rounder. Only Baugh and Kilmer were 1st half of 1st round picks.

For every Manning there's a Leaf. For every Rivers there's Klinger. For every Palmer there's a Ware. In fact there's two misses for every one hit...the year Donny McNabb was drafted, he was sandwiched between Akili Smith and Tim Couch.

My point was that we can't be hellbent on finding a QB in the 1st round. Fill holes through the draft and get the best possible player. If you get lucky and "hit" on 3-4 players in every draft you start to build a franchise. We have not done this since Casserly left. We have sacrificed our future for Deion Sanders, Bruce Smith, Brandon Lloyd, Adam Archuleta and, yes, Donovan McNabb...it needs to stop. Why are we giving up multiple draft picks for a 35 year old?

As I write this, it has been reported that Donny may not be ready for Week 1. I hope Rex Grossman has a good handle on the SKins offense. He may be getting a lot of playing time this year.

So... you suggest that we find our future franchise quarterback in the 5th round. Count on "getting lucky". Well, yes... there's always a degree of luck... no matter what position you are drafting from... but early 1st round is still a lot luckier than mid 5th round.

In response to your final question...
Because the quarterback we had was not capable of leading the team, and the only way we were going to get his replacement otherwise required that we surrender the opportunity to the the real, most critical need for the draft... Left Tackle. The price was cheap...

Take the last word... enjoy.

I suggest filling holes with the best player available. If the best QB prospect warrants a pick in the first 10, you take him. But raw skills don't translate always and sometimes (and the statistics would tell me just as often) a guy who can learn the game with a less physical make-up can be just as successful.

I just believe that you don't trade 2 high round picks for a marginally better player in his mid 30's without a contract and a history of injuries.

Player personnel and player development has been long ignored since Snyder took over. Quick fixes have always been the player personnel strategy. Sign the biggest name free agent (or trade for one who's fallen out of favor with his current coaching regime) has been Snyder's M.O.

McNabb isn't the long term strategy. He might not even be the short term strategy if he can't stay healthy past preseason.

Wahoo McDaniels wrote:I suggest filling holes with the best player available. If the best QB prospect warrants a pick in the first 10, you take him. But raw skills don't translate always and sometimes (and the statistics would tell me just as often) a guy who can learn the game with a less physical make-up can be just as successful.

I just believe that you don't trade 2 high round picks for a marginally better player in his mid 30's without a contract and a history of injuries.

Player personnel and player development has been long ignored since Snyder took over. Quick fixes have always been the player personnel strategy. Sign the biggest name free agent (or trade for one who's fallen out of favor with his current coaching regime) has been Snyder's M.O.

McNabb isn't the long term strategy. He might not even be the short term strategy if he can't stay healthy past preseason.

I'm sorry but I disagree with this on a number of points

Dan Snyder is no longer making any decisions about the players or the play calling here - He's now JUST the owner!
Snyder is not, and has not been in charge or making personnel decisions here, for many months

McNabb is more than a "marginally better player than Campbell" - McNabb gives Kyle a QB that can play the position and he gives Mike a leader of the offense
Cambell was not even close to providing either - NOT EVEN CLOSE

I think you'll see that we are no longer doing "quick fixes" here - this will only be evident over time - this FO has a plan - I believe they understand that they have a lot of work to do and wanted to try and be as competitive as possible now as well as keeping an eye on the future - they have added players that are not just "star attractions" but can contribute and fit in better - I think they would have moved Haynesworth but want to make the best deal for this franchise in doing that

I know that McNabb will most likely not be a 16 game QB but I think they will get an awful lot more out of him than if we had stayed with a losing QB
McNabb is a HUGE upgrade and a bad decision on the Eagles part


these guys are going to make a lot of changes here but the biggest part IMO will be that we'll see the beginings of an NFL team again and we have not seen that here for many years - this year we'll be competitive but this new FO will make a huge difference AND we'll see a consistently competitive produc on the field each week - MAYBE as soon as next year

I have one simple question. I don't need a diatribe or essay or what you THINK...(this is for anyone).

How much leadership did McNabb show on the field vs the Jets? And how much leadership will he show on the field vs AZ this Thursday?

This is my concern.

VetSkinsFan wrote:How much leadership did McNabb show on the field vs the Jets? And how much leadership will he show on the field vs AZ this Thursday?

This is my concern.

I don't know, they never showed him on the sideline during the game.

Deadskins wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:How much leadership did McNabb show on the field vs the Jets? And how much leadership will he show on the field vs AZ this Thursday?

This is my concern.

I don't know, they never showed him on the sideline during the game.

Exactly. The sideline is not ON THE FIELD. It is the sideline.

Not a chance. They laugh at everything because they're fools and think they're better than everyone else. Donovan will be fine this season and he will extract revenge like he's never had before.

Good for him. =)

He will be a good fit there.

I know that some don't agree but no matter where McNabb is, on the sideline OR on the field, we are a lot better off than we would have been with Cambell - actually Campbell on the field would not have been as helpful to this franchise as McNabb on the sidelines - HUGE UPGRADE

McNabb will help on and off the field - Campbell cannot


we are a lot better off without him - PLUS he's not here, give it up

SkinsJock wrote:I know that some don't agree but no matter where McNabb is, on the sideline OR on the field, we are a lot better off than we would have been with Cambell - actually Campbell on the field would not have been as helpful to this franchise as McNabb on the sidelines - HUGE UPGRADE

McNabb will help on and off the field - Campbell cannot


we are a lot better off without him - PLUS he's not here, give it up

I never said I wanted JC back. Follow along please.

VetSkinsFan wrote:I have one simple question. I don't need a diatribe or essay or what you THINK...(this is for anyone).

How much leadership did McNabb show on the field vs the Jets? And how much leadership will he show on the field vs AZ this Thursday?

This is my concern.

Not exactly a fair question as we wouldn't know how many snaps he'd have taken in either game.

It's already been noted that even if McNabb were healthy he probably wouldn't have played versus AZ.