Bucs / Redskins POST-game thread

frankcal20 · Post by **frankcal20** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:41 am

Atleast Zorn admitted that he had to change his playcalling b/c what he was calling wasn't working and BOOM - WE SCORE!!!!

SnyderSucks · Post by **SnyderSucks** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:47 am

frankcal20 wrote:You can't blame all the sacks on JC. The sack with the fumble, he had no where to go. This is coming from the commentator's on a replay - 7 step drop, had pressure on the front side. JC stepped up and then got hit from behind. Samuels blocked him right into JC.

On that play, you have to hang that one on the line. But JC needs to do a better job securing the ball - we all know thats an issue.

Your point about him having no where to go is exactly right. How many times did you hear "Campbell back to pass, nobody open" yesterday? Obviously, Campbell was bad, but he also wasn't getting any help from his receivers. I watched the Dallas/Denver game and Orton threw a ball just like the one that Campbell threw to kelly. In the Denver game, the WR goes up and takes the ball away from the DB. Exact same play in San Diego, the WR goes up and gets the ball. Again, Campbell was bad, but there is lots of room for improvement from everyone.

My one hope, coming out of this game, is that they'll stop playing tight. It felt to me like the whole team was walking on eggshells, playing tight, playing not to lose. With the win despite the turnovers, perhaps they'll relax and play better.

markshark84 · Post by **markshark84** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:17 pm

frankcal20 wrote:Atleast Zorn admitted that he had to change his playcalling b/c what he was calling wasn't working and BOOM - WE SCORE!!!!

I don't think it is that easy, Frank.

I think a large part had to do with the defense they were playing against. Had this been a quality D, they wouldn't have blown the lead like they did. We were fortunete in that we did get one big play yesterday, but all in all the playcalling wasn't too bad -- in either half (regardless of what I am about to say). The second half was set up by the first half in that there was some play action. Additionally, in the first half he went run on almost every first down -- not the case in the second half.

When I was sitting watching the game with some friends, I actually correctly called 18 consecutive offensive playcalls in the first half -- which were either run (and direction), pass, playaction pass, dump pas, etc. (I ddin't say to which player the ball was going to though). They can testify to this. But, in the second half, Zorn became less predictable because of the playcalling in the first half. Now were those adjustments or was setting up the playcalling in the second half -- I don't know, but it was much better than in previous games; regardless of the predictable first half.

I, however, like to hit the ground running and score in the first quarter -- which we haven't been able to do thus far. So either way, I wasn't too happy overall with the offensive performance, but I am sure you were already aware of that knowing me.

markshark84 · Post by **markshark84** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:26 pm

SnyderSucks wrote:
frankcal20 wrote:You can't blame all the sacks on JC. The sack with the fumble, he had no where to go. This is coming from the commentator's on a replay - 7 step drop, had pressure on the front side. JC stepped up and then got hit from behind. Samuels blocked him right into JC.

On that play, you have to hang that one on the line. But JC needs to do a better job securing the ball - we all know thats an issue.

Your point about him having no where to go is exactly right. How many times did you hear "Campbell back to pass, nobody open" yesterday? Obviously, Campbell was bad, but he also wasn't getting any help from his receivers. I watched the Dallas/Denver game and Orton threw a ball just like the one that Campbell threw to kelly. In the Denver game, the WR goes up and takes the ball away from the DB. Exact same play in San Diego, the WR goes up and gets the ball. Again, Campbell was bad, but there is lots of room for improvement from everyone.

My one hope, coming out of this game, is that they'll stop playing tight. It felt to me like the whole team was walking on eggshells, playing tight, playing not to lose. With the win despite the turnovers, perhaps they'll relax and play better.

Quick points here:

-- overall JC had adequate time to pass

-- I do remember hearing the commentators saying that there was "no one open", but there were times when that wasn't the case. In fact, they showed a replay after saying this and Kelly was wide open up the left side of the field for a huge play, but JC was locked in on the right side and on Cool

ey. I was fuming. After looking very closely this season, I have noticed now more than ever that JC is missing receivers. Was JC told to focus on the right? I don't know. But if you are missing guys that are that open, the offense will not adequately evolve.

-- I do agree that our sophomore receivers are not very good -- Thomas in particular. That is why I was so upset that they drafted him initially -- which I said on this board. Never take a one year wonder. I do think, however, that the sophomores are upset at the limited amount of looks JC gives them. They tend to give up after their routes or they don't even finish them if they feel they are covered. Now, am I correct in that they are frustrated wth JC? I don't know. Is it that they are just plain bad and don't finish plays? THis could very well be the answer. I just find that JC targets 2 receivers and doesn't check down his additional progressions because of his limited ability to see the field and make quick reads.

-- I agree in that I hope this team quits playing so tight. Sure, JC threw 3 INTs in an attempt to open up the field --- which lead to all of the Buc points, but it is imperative that we continue doing this. If JC continues to throw picks, then we make a change; mainly because it will be apparent that he doesn't have the ability to throw deep and make those types of plays. The 3 INTs were evidence that he doesn't, but I think we should give him a couple games to see what he does.

CanesSkins26 · Post by **CanesSkins26** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:48 pm

-- I do remember hearing the commentators saying that there was "no one open", but there were times when that wasn't the case. In fact, they showed a replay after saying this and Kelly was wide open up the left side of the field for a huge play, but JC was locked in on the right side and on ey. I was fuming. After looking very closely this season, I have noticed now more than ever that JC is missing receivers. Was JC told to focus on the right? I don't know. But if you are missing guys that are that open, the offense will not adequately evolve.

This is exactly what Sonny has been saying all season.

Countertrey · Post by **Countertrey** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:52 pm

CanesSkins26 wrote:
-- I do remember hearing the commentators saying that there was "no one open", but there were times when that wasn't the case. In fact, they showed a replay after saying this and Kelly was wide open up the left side of the field for a huge play, but JC was locked in on the right side and on ey. I was fuming. After looking very closely this season, I have noticed now more than ever that JC is missing receivers. Was JC told to focus on the right? I don't know. But if you are missing guys that are that open, the offense will not adequately evolve.

This is exactly what Sonny has been saying all season.

Oh, sure... like Sonny knows anything about being a quarterback, running progressions, completing passes, 2 minute drills, or getting into the Hall of Fame...

MEZZSKIN · Post by **MEZZSKIN** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:57 pm

JC only throws the ball to open receivers he does not throw to open spots..which is why he is low turnover(yesterday excluded) low play making QB

If a reciever is wide open he will throw it ...but if there even remotely covered he quickly dismisses that option and guns it to Betts

We are who we are....which is a bottom 5-7 team right now...unless things change...Its not all on JC though..lets call a spade a spade...We not very good in alot aspects of the game and were thinner than a wafer at some postions--cough cough OLINE

Happy about the W...but buckle up..stormy seas ahead

RayNAustin · Post by **RayNAustin** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:10 pm

Just watched Campbell's post game ... "up till today I have had a pretty good year". He said this twice in the presser.

Jason ..... Helllllooooow Jason .... you scored 9 points against the Rams. You lost to the Lions, and barely got past the Bucs (they missed 2 FGs), and your team is averaging 14 points a game with three of those games against the worst teams in the NFL.

You haven't been having a pretty good year Jason. That you think you have been is as much a part of the problem as anything.

CanesSkins26 · Post by **CanesSkins26** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:12 pm

RayNAustin wrote:Just watched Campbell's post game ... "up till today I have had a pretty good year". He said this twice in the presser.

Jason ..... Helllllooooow Jason .... you scored 9 points against the Rams. You lost to the Lions, and barely got past the Bucs (they missed 2 FGs), and your team is averaging 14 points a game with three of those games against the worst teams in the NFL.

You haven't been having a pretty good year Jason. That you think you have been is as much a part of the problem as anything.

QFT

MEZZSKIN · Post by **MEZZSKIN** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:29 pm

RayNAustin wrote:Just watched Campbell's post game ... "up till today I have had a pretty good year". He said this twice in the presser.

Jason ..... Helllllooooow Jason .... you scored 9 points against the Rams. You lost to the Lions, and barely got past the Bucs (they missed 2 FGs), and your team is averaging 14 points a game with three of those games against the worst teams in the NFL.

You haven't been having a pretty good year Jason. That you think you have been is as much a part of the problem as anything.

Did he really say that?????? wow whats wrong with him?...At some point does he understand NOBODY CARES ABOUT PROGRESS THIS PROGRESS THAT
its abouts wins and Points for a QB in his 5th year....
He doesnt get it and probably never will. He is what he is

SnyderSucks · Post by **SnyderSucks** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:02 pm

MEZZSKIN wrote:
RayNAustin wrote:Just watched Campbell's post game ... "up till today I have had a pretty good year". He said this twice in the presser.

Jason ..... Helllllooooow Jason .... you scored 9 points against the Rams. You lost to the Lions, and barely got past the Bucs (they missed 2 FGs), and your team is averaging 14 points a game with three of those games against the worst teams in the NFL.

You haven't been having a pretty good year Jason. That you think you have been is as much a part of the problem as anything.

Did he really say that?????? wow whats wrong with him?...At some point does he understand NOBODY CARES ABOUT PROGRESS THIS PROGRESS THAT
its abouts wins and Points for a QB in his 5th year....
He doesnt get it and probably never will. He is what he is

Just out of curiousity, does Campbell get any credit for the two 50 plus TD passes, or do those not count because they weren't from the 20-49 yard range?

And yes, Campbell was bad yesterday.

MEZZSKIN · Post by **MEZZSKIN** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:15 pm

MEZZSKIN wrote:
RayNAustin wrote:Just watched Campbell's post game ... "up till today I have had a pretty good year". He said this twice in the presser.

Jason ..... Helllllooooow Jason .... you scored 9 points against the Rams. You lost to the Lions, and barely got past the Bucs (they missed 2 FGs), and your team is averaging 14 points a game with three of those games against the worst teams in the NFL.

You haven't been having a pretty good year Jason. That you think you have been is as much a part of the problem as anything.

Did he really say that?????? wow whats wrong with him?...At some point does he understand NOBODY CARES ABOUT PROGRESS THIS PROGRESS THAT
its abouts wins and Points for a QB in his 5th year....
He doesnt get it and probably never will. He is what he is

he gets credit...for making the play...However.how come when we analyze a QB'S RED ZONE EFFICIENCY we dont argue the same point ...Because a 30 yard window is alot . It tells a story especially after 310 attempts!...What the hell does 60 yard TD passes have to do with the fact that he dropped back 310plus times and has thrown 1td i n this vital window on the field.

Ive said this before...58 yard td passes are great but they are few and infrequent and No efficient offense can survive that way..IMPOSSIBLE
btw you do realize Moss is the first Redskin WR in 22 years to catch 50 yards plus Td's in back to back weeks.....which proves my point how infrequent they really are(uh especially for this franchise ..wink wink)

310 ATTEMPTS--stand alone on its own feet..its almost a full seasons worth of passes...and hes thrown 1td

hey Kudos to JC for making some plays....but it does not change the fact once the washingtion Redskin cross the 50..We are grossly inept at scoring hence our horrific points per game avg

You can NOT survive with the occasional 55 yards out strike!!!!
thats my point

mastdark81 · Post by **mastdark81** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:18 pm

SnyderSucks wrote:
MEZZSKIN wrote:
RayNAustin wrote:Just watched Campbell's post game ... "up till today I have had a pretty good year". He said this twice in the presser.

Jason ..... Helllllooooow Jason .... you scored 9 points against the Rams. You lost to the Lions, and barely got past the Bucs (they missed 2 FGs), and your team is averaging 14 points a game with three of those games against the worst teams in the NFL.

You haven't been having a pretty good year Jason. That you think you have been is as much a part of the problem as anything.

Did he really say that?????? wow whats wrong with him?...At some point does he understand NOBODY CARES ABOUT PROGRESS THIS PROGRESS THAT
its abouts wins and Points for a QB in his 5th year....
He doesnt get it and probably never will. He is what he is

Just out of curiousity, does Campbell get any credit for the two 50 plus TD passes, or do those not count because they weren't from the 20-49 yard range?

And yes, Campbell was bad yesterday.

The pass to Cool

ey was a redzone score :lol:

points, points, points, points!

chiefhog44 · Post by **chiefhog44** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:44 pm

Redskin in Canada wrote:This game was the last straw ... I lost interest in the season folks. Although I will still watch every time I can, I will not follow the team as close this season as I did in the past.

Spending time watching and following the Skins has always involved some kind of sacrifices to stop doing other things with the family and even do some good volunteer work on Sundays. Time to change priorities and I know you guys are tired of me pointing a finger to those at the FO mainly accountable for this mess. I do not feel that I should come here to release my frustration.

Peace brothers and sisters.

It has finally hit rock bottom.

good luck

markshark84 · Post by **markshark84** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:47 pm

RayNAustin wrote:Just watched Campbell's post game ... "up till today I have had a pretty good year". He said this twice in the presser.

Jason ..... Helllllooooow Jason .... you scored 9 points against the Rams. You lost to the Lions, and barely got past the Bucs (they missed 2 FGs), and your team is averaging 14 points a game with three of those games against the worst teams in the NFL.

You haven't been having a pretty good year Jason. That you think you have been is as much a part of the problem as anything.

I watched that last night and was actually going to post something to that effect today.

It is apparent that JC is in a land of delusion in that he believes he has had a good season. It also is easy to conclude that JC doesn't look at himself as the leader of the offense, but merely as one simple component of it --- which is the completely wrong view to have as a QB. A QB is only as good as the offensive product.

For JC to sit there and say that "he has had a good year" just shows that he truly doesn't understand the vital role a QB plays in the offense. He has had a HORRIBLE year because the offense has had a horrible year. It is clear that he merely looks at his stats and says to himself "well these look good" --- which is pretty idiotic for an NFL player to do. He doesn't understand the effect a QB has on the blocking, run game, TOP, etc. You can't grasp that by looking at stats.

If this is what he considers "a good year" then he needs to get out of Washington. It is very clear that he is content with .500 football, as long as his stats are decent. This is not the way a QB should look at things.

It even makes me believe that he truly on cares about his own personal stats and not those of the entire offense. Maybe he isn't quite the team player we think he is. That would actually answer numerous questions such as his lack of desire to thread the needle, how he consistently dumps the ball off to the RBs, and the fact that he is unwilling to take any chances downfield -- things that actually help QB passing ratings, but not the team score points. He is too concerned with his stats and how likely it is he will be picked up next season by another team.

Do you think that any other quality, NFL starting QB would have made those statements based on the fact that the skins are 27th in the league in scoring. If this is the way he thinks, we should pull him. He is only playing for himself and not the team. He is only trying to make himself look good to other NFL teams.

markshark84 · Post by **markshark84** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:52 pm

mastdark81 wrote:
SnyderSucks wrote:
MEZZSKIN wrote:
RayNAustin wrote:Just watched Campbell's post game ... "up till today I have had a pretty good year". He said this twice in the presser.

Jason ..... Helllllooooow Jason .... you scored 9 points against the Rams. You lost to the Lions, and barely got past the Bucs (they missed 2 FGs), and your team is averaging 14 points a game with three of those games against the worst teams in the NFL.

You haven't been having a pretty good year Jason. That you think you have been is as much a part of the problem as anything.

Did he really say that?????? wow whats wrong with him?...At some point does he understand NOBODY CARES ABOUT PROGRESS THIS PROGRESS THAT
its abouts wins and Points for a QB in his 5th year....
He doesnt get it and probably never will. He is what he is

Just out of curiousity, does Campbell get any credit for the two 50 plus TD passes, or do those not count because they weren't from the 20-49 yard range?

And yes, Campbell was bad yesterday.

The pass to ey was a redzone score points, points, points, points!

OK, so JC has one redzone TD in four games --- 3 of which were against bottom 5 defensive teams. How many points did Cutler put up on Detriot? Like 50. The Bucs D averaged 30+ points against per game (and it would have been more had the Giants not pulled Eli for Carr AND the Giants not run the ball over 50 TIMES to run out the clock).

You are grasping at straws here. Big deal.

cleg · Post by **cleg** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:01 pm

I've come off the ledge. The Thomas Bosewell column made me feel better. Also, there was another article written in today's post that talks about that the players are no longer considering themselves an elite team talent wise, that they have tempered their expectations. I find that reassuring that the players may now be saying to themselves they need to man up and their poor play is not an aberration but something they need to work to improve. If that happens they will win some games.

By the way, for those calling for Todd Collins forget it. If it were going to happen it would have been yesterday at half. We will live and die with JC this year.

chiefhog44 · Post by **chiefhog44** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:02 pm

SkinsJock wrote:That's the thing - it's not all on this player or that player or that coach - it's a team that is not playing well together and the players do not seem to be playing with a sense of urgency or passion

In my opinion it is not a person - it looks to me like a group of talented players trying to play the game as well as they can but there just does not seem to be any accountability or leadership here - good teams find a way to win and look like they deserve the victory - we seem to be a team that is just going through the motions

after yesterday's game I felt let down - we need a culture change, big time

It's the result of free agency. Every year, the Skins have to re-learn their roles on this team. The team signs a big name free agent and he comes in expecting to fill the same role he had on his previous team. Well, what if we already had someone in that role? There is inevitably conflict. There is no team. It's a bunch of high priced individuals. That's why I continue to go back to a GM. A good GM knows how to manage these role players and how to keep stocking the team with draftee's. Rookies are somewhat easy to mold into the player the team needs him to be. By drafting players, they grow into a roll. By signing players, they come in and inevitably there is a conflict with someone else's ego. Maybe this is over the top, but just my 2cents.

markshark84 · Post by **markshark84** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:16 pm

chiefhog44 wrote:
SkinsJock wrote:That's the thing - it's not all on this player or that player or that coach - it's a team that is not playing well together and the players do not seem to be playing with a sense of urgency or passion

In my opinion it is not a person - it looks to me like a group of talented players trying to play the game as well as they can but there just does not seem to be any accountability or leadership here - good teams find a way to win and look like they deserve the victory - we seem to be a team that is just going through the motions

after yesterday's game I felt let down - we need a culture change, big time

It's the result of free agency. Every year, the Skins have to re-learn their roles on this team. The team signs a big name free agent and he comes in expecting to fill the same role he had on his previous team. Well, what if we already had someone in that role? There is inevitably conflict. There is no team. It's a bunch of high priced individuals. That's why I continue to go back to a GM. A good GM knows how to manage these role players and how to keep stocking the team with draftee's. Rookies are somewhat easy to mold into the player the team needs him to be. By drafting players, they grow into a roll. By signing players, they come in and inevitably there is a conflict with someone else's ego. Maybe this is over the top, but just my 2cents.

This is exactly correct. The problem is that our GM/Owner has NO experience playing the game. He didn't even play pee wee football (probably in fear of hurting himself or his mommy didn't want him to play). When you play the game, you realize that each individual player has on-field roles. It takes time for the players to establish those roles and it is very difficult to create continuity via free agency and fill those roles -- because each team is different. When new guys come in year in and year out, roles change and it results in poor play and lacks continuity. If you draft players, they come in with an understanding of their roles and can play accordingly; but when you have a guy that did one thing for a different team and then comes in and is asked to do another, it just doesn't work. See Jason Taylor, ARE, Stubblefield, Carter, even Haynesworth. You need to build a team, not assemble one. This isn't Madden 2010 (I thought Snyder would realize this after the 2000 debacle, but he didn't). But Snyder doesn't understand this becuase he hasn't played a down of football his entire life --- and he never will.

grampi · Post by **grampi** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:28 pm

cleg wrote:By the way, for those calling for Todd Collins forget it. If it were going to happen it would have been yesterday at half. We will live and die with JC this year.

If JC has another turnover-fest like yesterday's game I'd have no problem with him getting benched in favor of Collins or Brennan. Neither of those guys could've possibly played as poorly as JC did yesterday.

skinsfan#33 · Post by **skinsfan#33** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:55 pm

markshark84 wrote:
ArlingtonSkinsFan wrote:
RayNAustin wrote:Some say that Redskin fans are some of the smartest football fans around. None of them have spent any time reading this board.

Campbell, almost single handedly sunk the ship in the first half, making the Bucs look like the 85 Bears. It was embarrassing.

That this short bus riding retard was even in the game in the second half is grounds for firing Zorn on Monday morning.

The only thing we learned today is that there is nothing Campbell can do to get benched. Nothing

I hope you have a kid with down sydrome. That is extremely inapropriate

Wow. I used to teach special needs children and must say that not only is that completely inappropriate, but this statement is the worst I have ever heard on this board. And this is coming from someone that has very thick skin.

RayNAustin was extremely out of line and made himself look like a fool for writing that, but wishing someone had a child with downs is horrendous. Both of you should do some research on the condition and when you wipe away your ignorance maybe then you'll realize how dumb you all sound.

Get a life people! Relax no one really wanted anyone to have a kid with a disability and Ray was insulting anyone wo actually rides a short bus (unless JC does and I don't know about it).

God I hate people that are too PC. Check your manhood and lets move on.

skinsfan#33 · Post by **skinsfan#33** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:09 pm

chiefhog44 wrote:
SkinsJock wrote:That's the thing - it's not all on this player or that player or that coach - it's a team that is not playing well together and the players do not seem to be playing with a sense of urgency or passion

In my opinion it is not a person - it looks to me like a group of talented players trying to play the game as well as they can but there just does not seem to be any accountability or leadership here - good teams find a way to win and look like they deserve the victory - we seem to be a team that is just going through the motions

after yesterday's game I felt let down - we need a culture change, big time

It's the result of free agency. Every year, the Skins have to re-learn their roles on this team. The team signs a big name free agent and he comes in expecting to fill the same role he had on his previous team.

I know the offense is so bad this year because all of the free agents and rookies we added to it. :shock:

OH, WAIT! We added one FA and he was here three years ago. The offense was left virtually untouched and it is playing like it did at the end of 2008!

markshark84 · Post by **markshark84** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:23 pm

skinsfan#33 wrote:
Get a life people! Relax no one really wanted anyone to have a kid with a disability and Ray was insulting anyone wo actually rides a short bus (unless JC does and I don't know about it).

God I hate people that are too PC. Check your manhood and lets move on.

Trust me, I am not a "PC" person (have you read my posts?), but wishing that type of thing on someone is ridiculous. And wishing a disability on their kid is exactly what was said, so I am not sure what post you were reading.

But it's not about being PC. It's about the context that was used. But then again, from the content of your post, you probably didn't understand that.

Californiaskin · Post by **Californiaskin** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:53 pm

markshark84 wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:
Get a life people! Relax no one really wanted anyone to have a kid with a disability and Ray was insulting anyone wo actually rides a short bus (unless JC does and I don't know about it).

God I hate people that are too PC. Check your manhood and lets move on.

Trust me, I am not a "PC" person (have you read my posts?), but wishing that type of thing on someone is ridiculous. And wishing a disability on their kid is exactly what was said, so I am not sure what post you were reading.

But it's not about being PC. It's about the context that was used. But then again, from the content of your post, you probably didn't understand that.

once again markshark munchin on somebody elses ass tonight .....as if dudes gonna go back and read your posts..... give it a rest and lets get back to ball or go flame out on the webskins site

markshark84 · Post by **markshark84** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:15 pm

Californiaskin wrote:
markshark84 wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:
Get a life people! Relax no one really wanted anyone to have a kid with a disability and Ray was insulting anyone wo actually rides a short bus (unless JC does and I don't know about it).

God I hate people that are too PC. Check your manhood and lets move on.

Trust me, I am not a "PC" person (have you read my posts?), but wishing that type of thing on someone is ridiculous. And wishing a disability on their kid is exactly what was said, so I am not sure what post you were reading.

But it's not about being PC. It's about the context that was used. But then again, from the content of your post, you probably didn't understand that.

once again markshark munchin on somebody elses ass tonight .....as if dudes gonna go back and read your posts..... give it a rest and lets get back to ball or go flame out on the webskins site

If you wanted to give it a rest, why did you post this?

Also, I didn't ask him to read my prior posts.......