The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

CanesSkins26 wrote:I'm not talking about most first rounders. I'm talking about Shanahan's history, or lack thereof, in successfully evaluating qbs. Let's look at who the Broncos drafted at qb during Shanahan's tenure...

Jeff Lewis 4th round
Brian Griese 3rd round
Jarious Jackson 7th round
Matt Mauck 7th round
Bradley Van Pelt 7th round
Jay Cutler 1st round
Tom Brandstater 6th round

You talking about a bunch of guys that mostly weren't even top 100 picks, you scraping the bottom of the barrel to prove a point that doesn't have data to support. drafting QBs in the 6th and 7th rounds and what became of them has nothing to do with his evaluation of top QBs

CanesSkins26 wrote:With the Broncos he also signed Jake Plummer as a free agent, and other qbs that he acquired that took snaps for him include Patrick Ramsey, Danny Kannel, Steve Buerlein, Gus Frerotte, Chris Miller, and Bubby Brister.

He signed Plummer to run his offense an that's the only guy on the list that he brought in to start.... it kind of like listing a bunch of 7th round picks and saying this is his history... it's not... it's your revised history of what he did.

CanesSkins26 wrote:As you know, with the Skins it was a failed trade for McNabb and the Rex/Beck fiasco.

John Elway, who Shanahan inherited, retired in 1999 and since then no qb has started in more than 4 seasons for the Broncos, and only 2 (Plummer and Cutler) started 2 full seasons (nobody has started 3 full seasons for Shanahan since Elway).

Let's look at it another way and not your way.... Elway retired in 99 (that's 12 years) Brian Griese (a 3rd round pick) led the team in passing from 1999 until 2002, or about four years he got banged up and missed games but he was Mike's pick and the teams leader, QBs do get hurt and miss games. If Brian had been healthy in 2003, maybe he wouldn't have went out and signed Plummer who also happened to led the team in passing for ..... four years. Cutler replaced Plummer in 2007 until MS was fired.

So in the 12 years after Elway retired he had 3 QB during the 10 years he stayed there.


Again QBs get hurt... Shanny won't just give them their job back once they get healthy (unless the only option is Beck), but both Griese and Plummer had 4 years behind center for Shanny.

It's in the hitory books.....

Wow same stats look so different in how they are presented. What a notion..
If anything I thing thos draft numbers say he got his guy in Cutler and found a solid qb in Griese in the third. Pretty good work. Suré a few of them late roundera ended up being serviceable.
Anotherthing to consider is grabbing one of those guys to see if u can mold him into something better, being a 7th rounder not much to lose.

No one can use the Rex/Beck argument to show the "inability" of Shanahan at evaluating QBs. We kept them here because they were cheap, and there was no QB of value in last years draft. Plus we were in "defense rebuild" mode last year, this year we'll focus on the O. Have faith in the Shanaplan for at least another year.

Exactly. We had the perfect personnel for the 4/3 and didn't have many guys who could convert to the 3/4. On top of that, those 4/3 players were past their prime and Shanny had a plan to rebuilt that side of the ball first. He plans on now rebuilding the offense and that's why it'll take 5 years.

frankcal20 wrote:and that's why it'll take 5 years.

It'll take every bit of 5 years. And I'm sure his contract will get extended at the end of it.

As it should b/c at that point he will have shown that he recreated this team and has developed a contender year in, year out. At this point, we just need to contend for the division title. Once we've shown we can do that, then we contend for the NFC title, etc.

StorminMormon86 wrote:No one can use the Rex/Beck argument to show the "inability" of Shanahan at evaluating QBs. We kept them here because they were cheap, and there was no QB of value in last years draft. Plus we were in "defense rebuild" mode last year, this year we'll focus on the O. Have faith in the Shanaplan for at least another year.

Who brought Rex and Beck to DC? Shanahan. So they were "kept" here because he is the one that decided to sign one and trade for the other.

frankcal20 wrote:As it should b/c at that point he will have shown that he recreated this team and has developed a contender year in, year out. At this point, we just need to contend for the division title. Once we've shown we can do that, then we contend for the NFC title, etc.

Mike had to build up depth and the starting lineup. I never liked peoples comparisons to Jim taking over the 49er gig because that team was loaded with talent already.

To add to that point Chris - this year through luck, injuries or whatever - we've seen that this FO has in fact added a number of players that will not only help but also add to another critical component and that is quality depth

I don't think anyone is saying that this FO has not made mistakes, they have - BUT, they've also added players with a lot of upside


hopefully these guys continue to add to the mix, especially given that there are not a lot of QBs available thru free agency or the draft


we are not just a super QB away from being consistently competitive here, but, this FO is getting us there - it's obvious

1niksder wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:I'm not talking about most first rounders. I'm talking about Shanahan's history, or lack thereof, in successfully evaluating qbs. Let's look at who the Broncos drafted at qb during Shanahan's tenure...

Jeff Lewis 4th round
Brian Griese 3rd round
Jarious Jackson 7th round
Matt Mauck 7th round
Bradley Van Pelt 7th round
Jay Cutler 1st round
Tom Brandstater 6th round

You talking about a bunch of guys that mostly weren't even top 100 picks, you scraping the bottom of the barrel to prove a point that doesn't have data to support. drafting QBs in the 6th and 7th rounds and what became of them has nothing to do with his evaluation of top QBs

CanesSkins26 wrote:With the Broncos he also signed Jake Plummer as a free agent, and other qbs that he acquired that took snaps for him include Patrick Ramsey, Danny Kannel, Steve Buerlein, Gus Frerotte, Chris Miller, and Bubby Brister.

He signed Plummer to run his offense an that's the only guy on the list that he brought in to start.... it kind of like listing a bunch of 7th round picks and saying this is his history... it's not... it's your revised history of what he did.

CanesSkins26 wrote:As you know, with the Skins it was a failed trade for McNabb and the Rex/Beck fiasco.

John Elway, who Shanahan inherited, retired in 1999 and since then no qb has started in more than 4 seasons for the Broncos, and only 2 (Plummer and Cutler) started 2 full seasons (nobody has started 3 full seasons for Shanahan since Elway).

Let's look at it another way and not your way.... Elway retired in 99 (that's 12 years) Brian Griese (a 3rd round pick) led the team in passing from 1999 until 2002, or about four years he got banged up and missed games but he was Mike's pick and the teams leader, QBs do get hurt and miss games. If Brian had been healthy in 2003, maybe he wouldn't have went out and signed Plummer who also happened to led the team in passing for ..... four years. Cutler replaced Plummer in 2007 until MS was fired.

So in the 12 years after Elway retired he had 3 QB during the 10 years he stayed there.


Again QBs get hurt... Shanny won't just give them their job back once they get healthy (unless the only option is Beck), but both Griese and Plummer had 4 years behind center for Shanny.

It's in the hitory books.....

It was more than injuries. Griese, I believe, was benched on several occasions because of his habit of throwing the football to players not on his own team.

None of that changes the fact that since Elway retired in 1999, Shanahan was not able to find a long-term qb in Denver, and has had no success in finding one so far in DC. In Denver, he drafted Griese, who became the starter after Elway retired. Griese was mediocre, and after 4 years of starting they cut him and signed Plummer, who likewise was mediocre and had a turnover problem, and was benched in his 4th year in Denver and replaced with Cutler. Cutler has by far been Shanahan's most successful qb acquisition, and he traded up in the draft to get him.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:and that's why it'll take 5 years.

It'll take every bit of 5 years. And I'm sure his contract will get extended at the end of it.

FWIW: Shanny said a 5 year deal only gets you four....

1niksder wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:and that's why it'll take 5 years.

It'll take every bit of 5 years. And I'm sure his contract will get extended at the end of it.

FWIW: Shanny said a 5 year deal only gets you four....

Do you think he'll be here?

IMO - Mike & Bruce are still here after 4 years if they continue to add players and coaches as they have done

Keep on the same plan as they've done and these guys will get the extensions they deserve


this franchise was BAD at the end of 2009 - this FO has done very well in getting us back to being close to being competitive again

SkinsJock wrote:IMO - Mike & Bruce are still here after 4 years if they continue to add players and coaches as they have done

Keep on the same plan as they've done and these guys will get the extensions they deserve


this franchise was BAD at the end of 2009 - this FO has done very well in getting us back to being close to being competitive again

I can guarantee you that if after next year Shanahan has another losing season, he's gone. He may not be fired, but I think he'll quit. The man is too stubborn to keep losing. It doesn't matter who he adds to this team if we don't produce the W's.

StorminMormon86 wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:IMO - Mike & Bruce are still here after 4 years if they continue to add players and coaches as they have done

Keep on the same plan as they've done and these guys will get the extensions they deserve


this franchise was BAD at the end of 2009 - this FO has done very well in getting us back to being close to being competitive again

I can guarantee you that if after next year Shanahan has another losing season, he's gone. He may not be fired, but I think he'll quit. The man is too stubborn to keep losing. It doesn't matter who he adds to this team if we don't produce the W's.

Quitting is usually the only way to have to forfeit the remainder of the money owed. So, he'd probably wait to get fired, unless he has some language in his contract that allows him to resign or retire and still get paid. That would be unusual though.

StorminMormon86 wrote:He may not be fired, but I think he'll quit. The man is too stubborn to keep losing.

If you've learned anything about this man, it should be that he does NOT quit. He, like everyone has his faults but he would not quit on this team.

Irn-Bru wrote:

markshark84 wrote:Our OL is not sufficient to support a non-elite pocket QB and especially a rookie QB (outside of Luck).

The stats disagree with you. Not only do we have a functional run game (which helps immensely), but even with Rex "No Pocket Presence" Grossman, Washington was in the middle of the pack on sack rates — and was improving toward the end of the year. The offensive line that Shanny is building is coming together.

We need to upgrade 3 positions on our OL

At the beginning of the season I would have disagreed with you. In the middle I would have agreed. Now once again I disagree with this idea.

We definitely need to upgrade one or maybe two OL positions, but that unit is not a huge weakness on this team. In fact it's hard for me to see the argument that they haven't been adequate. A good run game, and enough pass protection. That seems darn near close to the definition of "adequate" to me.

Stats very rarely tell the story when it comes to OL. And I am not sure what stats you are speaking of. Outside of QB sacks, pressures, and pancake blocks, the OL doesn't have any stats to speak of. Our QBs were not sacked very often this year, but that does not mean much. Those type of stats are as dependent on the situation/offense/etc. as it is on the ability of the OL. It is no secret that superior OLs, result in superior offenses -- which result in superior teams. It all starts at the OL. After all, skins history has proven that our best teams have always included superior OLs. We may just have different expectations for OL -- I would like to have a top 5 OL.

That said, I do agree the OL was improving -- which was a result of the injury depleted OL "gelling" together and understanding roles (which I believe we agree on) -- but even with that improvement, wasn't as strong as we need.

I think it is important to note that the OL positions are without question the most commonly injured in the NFL. It is extremely important to have depth at every position on the OL. Most rosters have 8-9 OL at any given time (not including TEs). I don't know the #s on this, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was >50% chance that every single one of the opening day roster OL would start at least one game that season. All 9 of our OL have to be able to start and contribute -- without being a liability. I think it goes without saying, but the OL is a chain and it is only as strong as it's weakest link; if you put an inadequate OL in, the entire offense is exposed.

Right now, I consider Williams, Lickensteiger, and Montgomery as "solid" OL members (which is a huge concenssion -- since I used to despise Lichensteiger). I see Chester as a "serviceable" backup and Polumbus and Hurt as players with "potential" but need to see more of them in order to make a decision. Therefore, we have 3 solid members on our OL and 1 serviceable backup. In order to have an above avg line, we need to have at least 5 "solid players", 2-3 "serviceable" players, and 1 "potential" OL. As such, we need to find 2 "solid" OL and 1-2 "serviceable". OL injuries, as we have seen for the majority of our seasons over the past decade, can completely crush your offense -- so we need plan our OL accordingly.

IMHO, the OL sets the tone for the entire offense. It provides holes for the RBs, it gives time to the QB, and as such dictates the type of defenses the offense will see. If you have a good OL, it instantly upgrades your RBs, WRs, and QBs. We still need a QB, but outside of that, I am not sure what is more important than OL.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

1niksder wrote:Let's look at it another way and not your way.... Elway retired in 99 (that's 12 years) Brian Griese (a 3rd round pick) led the team in passing from 1999 until 2002, or about four years he got banged up and missed games but he was Mike's pick and the teams leader, QBs do get hurt and miss games. If Brian had been healthy in 2003, maybe he wouldn't have went out and signed Plummer who also happened to led the team in passing for ..... four years. Cutler replaced Plummer in 2007 until MS was fired.

So in the 12 years after Elway retired he had 3 QB during the 10 years he stayed there.


Again QBs get hurt... Shanny won't just give them their job back once they get healthy (unless the only option is Beck), but both Griese and Plummer had 4 years behind center for Shanny.

It's in the hitory books.....

It was more than injuries. Griese, I believe, was benched on several occasions because of his habit of throwing the football to players not on his own team.

None of that changes the fact that since Elway retired in 1999, Shanahan was not able to find a long-term qb in Denver, and has had no success in finding one so far in DC. In Denver, he drafted Griese, who became the starter after Elway retired. Griese was mediocre, and after 4 years of starting they cut him and signed Plummer, who likewise was mediocre and had a turnover problem, and was benched in his 4th year in Denver and replaced with Cutler. Cutler has by far been Shanahan's most successful qb acquisition, and he traded up in the draft to get him.

Griese started 51 of the 52 games he appeared in after Elway retired, and he never posted more ints than TDs as a Bronco. MS went 6-10 in Griese's first year... not surprising considering he found him in the 3rd, but he didn't post another losing season until Cutler's rookie season 8 years later while making the the post season 50% of the time. Plummer was benched in his fourth year (the only year he had more picks than TDs), before that he started every game he played in. Plummer never played again IIRC. Plummer averaged 19 picks a year before he was signed by Shanny, he only hit that mark once under MS.

You say Cutler was his most successful qb acquisition but he had zero winning seasons with Cutler, and had a overall losing record with Jay at QB (granted h only had 2 years with him).

I'd have to say that this offensive line is at a point where it can support a good QB.

Rex is slow physically. He's slow in his reads, he double clutches, etc, etc. He doesn't have much of an arm. He doesn't hit WR's in stride consistently.

He does A LOT of things that make the offensive line look worse than what it may actually be.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

StorminMormon86 wrote:He may not be fired, but I think he'll quit. The man is too stubborn to keep losing.

If you've learned anything about this man, it should be that he does NOT quit. He, like everyone has his faults but he would not quit on this team.

He says a five year deal is only four because the owner should see a return on his investment by year four. MS hasn't worked for many owners and none like "the Danny" and I think this is his make or break year. "the Danny" gives everybody 5 year deals and fire them after 2, unless your monogram is JJG, Shanny is on his 3 season now. It's win or go home.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:I'd have to say that this offensive line is at a point where it can support a good QB.

Rex is slow physically. He's slow in his reads, he double clutches, etc, etc. He doesn't have much of an arm. He doesn't hit WR's in stride consistently.

He does A LOT of things that make the offensive line look worse than what it may actually be.

Why are you talking about REX and GOOD QBs in the same post... on a Monday no less....

1niksder wrote:He says a five year deal is only four because the owner should see a return on his investment by year four. MS hasn't worked for many owners and none like "the Danny" and I think this is his make or break year. "the Danny" gives everybody 5 year deals and fire them after 2, unless your monogram is JJG, Shanny is on his 3 season now. It's win or go home.

My gut says he won't be... But... I wouldn't be shocked but definitely saddened. It'd set the team about another 2-3 years at the least. Whoever came in next would still have to continue to build up depth and the starting line up. We'd have to go through learning a new system. We might need an entirely new offensive line, depending on the run scheme. The new regime might not like whatever QB we have... SMH...

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

1niksder wrote:He says a five year deal is only four because the owner should see a return on his investment by year four. MS hasn't worked for many owners and none like "the Danny" and I think this is his make or break year. "the Danny" gives everybody 5 year deals and fire them after 2, unless your monogram is JJG, Shanny is on his 3 season now. It's win or go home.

My gut says he won't be... But... I wouldn't be shocked but definitely saddened. It'd set the team back about another 2-3 years at the least.....

I agree with Chris - I hope we get to see another 2 drafts from this FO

however .....
if they don't do as well with free agency, the coming draft AND we do NOT improve this season ... the sh*t could hit the proverbial





these guys will continue to make this franchise better and it will get them an extra year .... at least

Regardless of the W/L column, this team will be in a lot better shape than it has ever been since Snyder took over. If they decide not to renew his contract, fine, but at least leave the new regime with a complete team to helm. Don't muck this up midway and screw everyone.

I agree Chris - too much is made of the wins and losses here

we'll be fine as long as these guys can continue to do what they've done


Surely even Snyder (and his yes men) can see what has happened here since these guys came in