The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Personally I could care less what Allen did in Tampa - nothing that he did there is going to help this franchise - we have seen these guys bring in players and coaches that have some thinking that this franchise might even be in the playoffs

I think that means he's done well but maybe you don't see it that way

- On Desmond Howard: he was drafted as a WR. Awful. Gibbs discovered that he could not run pass routes, could not get open. One year he caught 40 passes; in his second best year he caught 26. He won SB MVP for returning kicks. Gibbs and Casserly did not trade two 1st rounders to get a KR who had one great game.

- Hats off to Yupchagee! Hail!

- Another bust: Pat Richter, 1st round split end who was an OK punter, but nowhere close to Gary Collins (U MD) as a receiver. Hardly ever used except to punt.

- And two reaches to the far past, back to the "heyday" of George Preston Marshall, who really does make Snyder look competent:

(a) Richie Lucas, a running QB from Penn State, who signed in the first class of AFL players...and did nothing. I seem to remember he signed with the Boston Patriots, but I can't remember him playing much.

(b) Way, way back: Heisman Trophy runner-up, QB from the truly overpowering Jim Tatum Maryland teams, Jack Scarbath. Lasted about two seasons, suffering from early Bebanitis: he was no QB.

welch wrote:- On Desmond Howard: he was drafted as a WR. Awful. Gibbs discovered that he could not run pass routes, could not get open. One year he caught 40 passes; in his second best year he caught 26. He won SB MVP for returning kicks. Gibbs and Casserly did not trade two 1st rounders to get a KR who had one great game.

- Hats off to Yupchagee! Hail!

- Another bust: Pat Richter, 1st round split end who was an OK punter, but nowhere close to Gary Collins (U MD) as a receiver. Hardly ever used except to punt.

- And two reaches to the far past, back to the "heyday" of George Preston Marshall, who really does make Snyder look competent:

(a) Richie Lucas, a running QB from Penn State, who signed in the first class of AFL players...and did nothing. I seem to remember he signed with the Boston Patriots, but I can't remember him playing much.

(b) Way, way back: Heisman Trophy runner-up, QB from the truly overpowering Jim Tatum Maryland teams, Jack Scarbath. Lasted about two seasons, suffering from early Bebanitis: he was no QB.

More like used hay.

Have to go with Archuleta. Not just because FA acquisitions are supposed to be much safer. But you have to consider that if not for the Archuleta signing, the Skins likely keep Ryan Clark, and don't draft Landry. Those two blunders put Archuleta over the top in my book.

Wait for it.....

Steve Spurrier!

I dont know but that was the hardest time for me. It was such a pain to watch that season. I had such high hopes then got shot down real real low.

Pettibone has had success. He was coming off a SuperBowl with GIbbs. So a few years of sub par play does not hurt as much when you have won a SuperBowl a couple years back. Also you got to give Pettibone some love he gave a lot to the Skins organization so he deserves respect even with the not so good head coaching gig.

Cutting Stephen Davis after a Pro Bowl year! Just one great move from Spurrier! Steve Spurrier has to take the cake.

HEROHAMO wrote:Wait for it.....

Steve Spurrier!

I dont know but that was the hardest time for me. It was such a pain to watch that season. I had such high hopes then got shot down real real low.

Pettibone has had success. He was coming off a SuperBowl with GIbbs. So a few years of sub par play does not hurt as much when you have won a SuperBowl a couple years back. Also you got to give Pettibone some love he gave a lot to the Skins organization so he deserves respect even with the not so good head coaching gig.

Cutting Stephen Davis after a Pro Bowl year! Just one great move from Spurrier! Steve Spurrier has to take the cake.

Still has to be Shuler. After all, he turned to a life of crime after his football career was over.

tough call. I voted for Archuleta

Countertrey wrote:That would be 1967 Heisman Trophy winning quarterback Gary Beban (he won the award OVER OJ Simpson)

0 TD's
0 Int's
0 Yds

Rating: 39.6

Biggest Bust EVER.

'course, he was sitting behind the best pure passer in NFL history...

Beban wasn't a 1st round pick.

yupchagee wrote:

Countertrey wrote:That would be 1967 Heisman Trophy winning quarterback Gary Beban (he won the award OVER OJ Simpson)

0 TD's
0 Int's
0 Yds

Rating: 39.6

Biggest Bust EVER.

'course, he was sitting behind the best pure passer in NFL history...

Beban wasn't a 1st round pick.

Show me where I said he was? Don't care. Expectations were still huge. Biggest bust ever.

Countertrey wrote:

yupchagee wrote:

Countertrey wrote:That would be 1967 Heisman Trophy winning quarterback Gary Beban (he won the award OVER OJ Simpson)

0 TD's
0 Int's
0 Yds

Rating: 39.6

Biggest Bust EVER.

'course, he was sitting behind the best pure passer in NFL history...

Beban wasn't a 1st round pick.

Show me where I said he was? Don't care. Expectations were still huge. Biggest bust ever.

You didn't. My point is that the more that is invested, the bigger the bust. Nobody ever talks about a 7th round pick or undrafted rookie as a bust.

That's YOUR criteria. I'm not bound to it.

Note: B Lloyd was a 4th round selection... he is on the list, without objection from you...

My selection... Beban

Countertrey wrote:That's YOUR criteria. I'm not bound to it.

Note: B Lloyd was a 4th round selection... he is on the list, without objection from you...

My selection... Beban

We gave up 2 draft picks for loyd as well as a boatload of money. Big investment.

Uh huh...

Countertrey wrote:That's YOUR criteria. I'm not bound to it.
My selection... Beban

the 'other' choice is relevant BUT not even close to the reality of SHULER

Countertrey wrote:

yupchagee wrote:

Countertrey wrote:That would be 1967 Heisman Trophy winning quarterback Gary Beban (he won the award OVER OJ Simpson) Biggest Bust EVER.

Beban wasn't a 1st round pick.

Show me where I said he was? Don't care. Expectations were still huge. Biggest bust ever.

WRONG - but then again, ... it's just another fan's opinion

You were following the Skins in 68-69? Amazing.

Countertrey wrote:You were following the Skins in 68-69? Amazing.

2 can play this game - I NEVER said anything close to that - this is your opinion and you don't seem to have a lot of 'support' from the poll - I doubt that many here were even born in 1968

I was born in 1945 and I could care less about the Redskins' draft choices before 1970 - Shuler is hands down the the worst choice in the 1st round in recent memory

First, the topic isn't limited to "recent memory"

Regarding My choice... I guess that's your opinion. My point was that you have no frame of reference to judge this player (Beban), or the disappointment felt (to which you pretty much admit in your response).

Shame that so much Redskins history isn't relevant, though... That someone wasn't around, or was too young to be a fan, in my opinion, doesn't make the history non-existent. You could care less about their draft choices prior to '70... so, I shouldn't either? I haven't belittled anyone else's selections. Who's playing the game? You have no frame of reference, therefore my opinion is... "WRONG". You don't know Beban, therefore, not relevant. Whatever. Pile on... enjoy.

However, I will also admit that... while I really do recall Beban as a huge disappointment... part of my motivation was to expand this discussion back beyond the familiar. There were plenty of Redskins draft catastrophes before 1990... and before 1980... and before the draft desert of the 1970's.

For the sake of the discussion, though, the selection of Heath Shuler did far more long term damage to the franchise than the selection of Andre Johnson... and greater long term damage than the failure of my choice... so, if that is the criteria for the biggest bust... well... that's fine, and perfectly valid.

Much of that was due to the circumstances of the selections. Heath Shuler had to come in and be effective almost immediately. He WAS the plan. There was no effective fall-back. His failure was a disaster, preventing us from finding that necessary franchise QB. Andre Johnson was a bust... but we were able to fill that hole adequately until a franchise LT could be found. Beban was drafted to be groomed to replace Sonny, who was nearing the end of his prime, but still had quality years left. Allen came in and implemented his plan, which minimized the harm done by Beban's failure.

Every year, you hear it. You can miss on a top 10 pick... unless it's a quarterback...

Countertrey wrote:First, the topic isn't limited to "recent memory"

Regarding My choice... I guess that's your opinion. My point was that you have no frame of reference to judge this player (Beban), or the disappointment felt (to which you pretty much admit in your response).

Shame that so much Redskins history isn't relevant, though... That someone wasn't around, or was too young to be a fan, in my opinion, doesn't make the history non-existent. You could care less about their draft choices prior to '70... so, I shouldn't either? I haven't belittled anyone else's selections. Who's playing the game? You have no frame of reference, therefore my opinion is... "WRONG". You don't know Beban, therefore, not relevant. Whatever. Pile on... enjoy.

However, I will also admit that... while I really do recall Beban as a huge disappointment... part of my motivation was to expand this discussion back beyond the familiar. There were plenty of Redskins draft catastrophes before 1990... and before 1980... and before the draft desert of the 1970's.

For the sake of the discussion, though, the selection of Heath Shuler did far more long term damage to the franchise than the selection of Andre Johnson... and greater long term damage than the failure of my choice... so, if that is the criteria for the biggest bust... well... that's fine, and perfectly valid.

Much of that was due to the circumstances of the selections. Heath Shuler had to come in and be effective almost immediately. He WAS the plan. There was no effective fall-back. His failure was a disaster, preventing us from finding that necessary franchise QB. Andre Johnson was a bust... but we were able to fill that hole adequately until a franchise LT could be found. Beban was drafted to be groomed to replace Sonny, who was nearing the end of his prime, but still had quality years left. Allen came in and implemented his plan, which minimized the harm done by Beban's failure.

Every year, you hear it. You can miss on a top 10 pick... unless it's a quarterback...

great counter post (pardon the pun) - I will admit I'm biased about Shuler because, as you said, there is nothing like losing out on a high pick but it is especially critical when that pick is a QB and there is no 'plan B'

I'm sorry, I did not mean to imply that past Redskins history is not a valid discussion - it is - I guess the draft just became more hyped later - I do understand you're point about Beban and I had absolutely zero knowledge about this guy before this thread, so that is something too

Trying to remember, but didn't Otto Graham (aka "Toot") trade one, or even two, first round choices for Beban?

As best I remember, Beban was drafted by the LA Rams, but refused to sign. Toot said, "Wow, Heisman Trophy! How much do you want??" And the deal was done.

For long-term damage: Desmond Howard.

The Redskins needed a cornerback to complement Green (as they always did), and a big WR to replace Monk, eventually. They had two first rounders, including the 5th or 6th pick, having traded for a future first from the Chargers, who lost almost every game. They could have had Carl Pickens and a tough CB who, I think, went to Miami. My son, who was about 13, explained exactly who they could get, why, and how...and those guys would have been available if they hadn't traded both picks to move up one notch to ensure they could draft Howard.

Howard never made it as a WR, and Gibbs learned that almost immediately. Howard hardly got into a game because he couldn't remember his routes. He never did learn. Pickens and the other guy (somebody Terrel?) had solid careers.

Shuler was a spectacular flop, but Mel Kifer assured everyone that Shuler and Trent Dilfer were the only QBs in the draft, and that Shuler was better. (And how can anybody argue with Mel Kifer? )

Going back to the mid-50s, GP Marshall passed over Jim Brown to keep the Redskins an all-white team. He GPM picked Don Bosseler, who was no chump, but Brown was maybe the best football player of all time. Anyway, that's what Jim Tatum, the great Maryland coach, said after Maryland played Syracuse. Tatum knew football.

It is tough to go against Shuler, but Stubblefield is THE example I use when we go out and get high priced talent that is only concerned with a paycheck and not winning.

B. Lloyd i think.

SPAMMER SPAMMER SPAMMER..... mods alert.

It has to be Haynesworth for the income he is earning from Dan Snyder. I believe Albert will contribute adaquetly this season in the 3-4 defense, although it will vever match 100 million dollars.

EA7649 wrote:It has to be Haynesworth for the income he is earning from Dan Snyder. I believe Albert will contribute adaquetly this season in the 3-4 defense, although it will vever match 100 million dollars.

He hasn't damaged us as much as Shuler & we didn't spend an early 1st round pick on him. Besides, Haynsworth hasn't (yet) turned to a life of crime.