markshark84 wrote:Personally, I don't think what we traded for him should be considered. If we didn't trade all that, he'd still have been the #2 pick in the draft. What we traded for him was our FO's issue; not RGIIIs.
Never thought of it that way, but you are absolutely correct.
Andre Carter wrote:Damn man, you know your football.
That is a ridiculous statement. The only category where that is even remotely plausible is playoff wins.
Playoff wins are what matters. I know it's been a while for us but trust me on this one.
“He was at that time the smartest player in the league. We did everything we could to try to eliminate him from the play. We knew if we didn’t neutralize him, then we had less of a chance of winning.” - John Hannah on Chris Hanburger
Deadskins wrote:This is what I disagree with. I don't accept your "can't think fast enough, or spatially" BS.
+1. I've never bought that criticism either. Or the "he can't read defenses" thing. He seems like a very smart guy IMO.
I've heard it said that Griffin doesn't have good pocket presence or a good feel for the pocket. Something along those lines. That's always made sense to me. Coming from the Baylor offense, playing a completely new style, why would he have a good feel for it? Being uncomfortable in the pocket, he's been prone to taking off early or standing there too long and taking too many sacks.
Seems like it would be a lot easier to learn those skills six years earlier playing against high school and college kids where you might have a chance at surviving the experience.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You can't do epic **** with basic people." - DJax "We're on the rise, man, whether you're on the train or not." - Josh Norman
Deadskins wrote:This is what I disagree with. I don't accept your "can't think fast enough, or spatially" BS.
+1. I've never bought that criticism either. Or the "he can't read defenses" thing. He seems like a very smart guy IMO.
I've heard it said that Griffin doesn't have good pocket presence or a good feel for the pocket. Something along those lines. That's always made sense to me. Coming from the Baylor offense, playing a completely new style, why would he have a good feel for it? Being uncomfortable in the pocket, he's been prone to taking off early or standing there too long and taking too many sacks.
Seems like it would be a lot easier to learn those skills six years earlier playing against high school and college kids where you might have a chance at surviving the experience.
"Can't" is contextual. Can't in his case means he is unable to because he's never done it before at any level, not that he is unable because he is too stupid to learn. The problem is it takes years to learn and at the NFL level you don't have years to learn.
“He was at that time the smartest player in the league. We did everything we could to try to eliminate him from the play. We knew if we didn’t neutralize him, then we had less of a chance of winning.” - John Hannah on Chris Hanburger
Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:"Can't" is contextual. Can't in his case means he is unable to because he's never done it before at any level, not that he is unable because he is too stupid to learn. The problem is it takes years to learn and at the NFL level you don't have years to learn.
Just seems like "reading defenses" is something every young QB can (and must) learn. Through film study, coaching, etc; I don't see that as some unattainable skill for Griffin. Would you agree?
The pocket presence/awareness thing seems like a bigger problem to me. He's standing back there trying to learn how to play that way and getting killed in the process.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You can't do epic **** with basic people." - DJax "We're on the rise, man, whether you're on the train or not." - Josh Norman
Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:"Can't" is contextual. Can't in his case means he is unable to because he's never done it before at any level, not that he is unable because he is too stupid to learn. The problem is it takes years to learn and at the NFL level you don't have years to learn.
Just seems like "reading defenses" is something every young QB can (and must) learn. Through film study, coaching, etc; I don't see that as some unattainable skill for Griffin. Would you agree?
The pocket presence/awareness thing seems like a bigger problem to me. He's standing back there trying to learn how to play that way and getting killed in the process.
Teams can't afford to give him two years to learn while doing in our actual cocktail lounges. (Props to anyone who gets that reference.) The NFL doesn't work on a "learn while you earn" basis. He's getting killed because he doesn't process information quickly enough to get rid of the football and he doesn't protect himself. He doesn't have Cam Newton's frame. He isn't built to take a lot of hits. He's never going to stay healthy enough to play enough consecutive games to develop.
“He was at that time the smartest player in the league. We did everything we could to try to eliminate him from the play. We knew if we didn’t neutralize him, then we had less of a chance of winning.” - John Hannah on Chris Hanburger
That is a ridiculous statement. The only category where that is even remotely plausible is playoff wins.
Playoff wins are what matters. I know it's been a while for us but trust me on this one.
what a load of BS - you've been over the top with so many of your posts since you came here - I wouldn't trust you as far as I could kick you ...
is it considered a personal attack if you know the poster is not reading the post
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
markshark84 wrote:That is a ridiculous statement. The only category where that is even remotely plausible is playoff wins.
Yeah, playoff wins doesn't make a QB better than another. To given an extreme example, I'd take Marino over Brad Johnson.
Now you're saying RGIII is Dan Marino?
I know that's not what you're saying but to say that RGIII is not a bust because he once went 10-6 in the weakest division in football that season is a stretch. Yes, Baltimore also went 10-6 in 2012 but they won the Super Bowl.
“He was at that time the smartest player in the league. We did everything we could to try to eliminate him from the play. We knew if we didn’t neutralize him, then we had less of a chance of winning.” - John Hannah on Chris Hanburger
OldSchool wrote:His inability to become even close to competent in the pocket for Kyle Shanahan and Jay Gruden is unrelated to his injuries. Robert can still throw 70-80 yards and do so accurately enough to play but is useless since he can't figure out what do fast enough to run an NFL offense.
This is what I disagree with. I don't accept your "can't think fast enough, or spatially" BS. I think his slowness to develop as a pocket passer is directly related to his injuries. He no longer is willing to keep his eyes downfield with any kind of perceived rush in his face. He is tentative, and pulls the ball down much too quickly. Unfortunately, this only exacerbates the problem, and results in him taking more hits. It is a self-fulfilling issue. It is probably best for him in the long run, that he doesn't play while the memory of the injuries fade.
Interesting theory that offers an alternative explanation for his lack of progress. I suppose the coaches have a better idea of why he hasn't made progress. Whether he was overwhelmed with concerns about his legs as you believe or my explanation that he is just not wired to play QB in the league.
OldSchool wrote:His inability to become even close to competent in the pocket for Kyle Shanahan and Jay Gruden is unrelated to his injuries. Robert can still throw 70-80 yards and do so accurately enough to play but is useless since he can't figure out what do fast enough to run an NFL offense.
This is what I disagree with. I don't accept your "can't think fast enough, or spatially" BS. I think his slowness to develop as a pocket passer is directly related to his injuries. He no longer is willing to keep his eyes downfield with any kind of perceived rush in his face. He is tentative, and pulls the ball down much too quickly. Unfortunately, this only exacerbates the problem, and results in him taking more hits. It is a self-fulfilling issue. It is probably best for him in the long run, that he doesn't play while the memory of the injuries fade.
Interesting theory that offers an alternative explanation for his lack of progress. I suppose the coaches have a better idea of why he hasn't made progress. Whether he was overwhelmed with concerns about his legs as you believe or my explanation that he is just not wired to play QB in the league.
OS - ever since you started posting here as a Browns fan, back in the day, there has been almost nothing that is believable ...
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
If Griffin is unable to focus on the field because he is concerned about get hit and hurting his legs than he should start playing with braces like the one he wore in 2013.
Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:If a player doesn't live up to expectations for any reason he is a bust. For example, if a player costs three first round draft picks plus a second round draft pick and goes 5-15 in his last twenty games he is a bust.
No, RGIII is not a bust, and never will be, even if he never plays another snap of football. In hindsight he may not have been worth what was paid for him, but setting NFL records and winning ROTY mean that he will never enter the bust category. And IMO, injuries can't make you a bust either. Underperforming is all that can make you a bust.
I like this. But we talk like RG3 is done. Rg3 is not done. He is 25. At his age, I believe I heard that Rodgers, Favre and Young weren't even entrenched as starters. There's plenty of time for this guy even on another team.
People don't like RG3 because of the negative media that Shanny and Fat Gruden created because they are ridged egomaniacs. Shanny is gone and Fat Gruden is a dead man walking. Get a coach that wants to coach RG3 like Gruden was hired to do and he will be ten Kirk Cousins- Oh wait....10 Kirk Cousins means 270 picks. You know what I mean...
They did not extend Captain Pick. Fat Gruden job murmurs are coming from somewhere to be constantly whispered about in the media. RG3 is still on the roster despite "everyone" hating on him and his "obvious" inability to play QB. RG3 is playing good soldier and not pushing for a trade. Add it up people.
Yes, ROTY was a byproduct of the season he had, but none of those you mentioned set numerous NFL records. RGIII was a once in a generation talent. All the talk about the hits he was taking were moot because it wasn't because of the ferocity of the hit that he got injured. He hyperextended his knee because of the pendulum effect, and the weakness of the previously repaired ACL. It was a freak thing.[/quote]
DarthMonk writes:
Someone needs to work on processing skills and keyboard presence with regard to quote function.
I think Griff's biggest problem (on the field) is confidence. He is more bust than not at this point but the final chapter of the story has not yet been written.
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Scalp 'em, Swamp 'em, We will take 'em big score! Read 'em, Weep 'em Touchdown, We want heap more!
Contextually, I'd consider him a bust...FOR THIS TEAM.
If he finds success elsewhere, on an AFC team hopefully, great. More power to him. If he is gone from the Skins next year, I don't see how he'd be anything other than a bust for this franchise.
markshark84 wrote: Yeah, playoff wins doesn't make a QB better than another. To given an extreme example, I'd take Marino over Brad Johnson.
Now you're saying RGIII is Dan Marino?
I know that's not what you're saying but to say that RGIII is not a bust because he once went 10-6 in the weakest division in football that season is a stretch. Yes, Baltimore also went 10-6 in 2012 but they won the Super Bowl.
Honestly, I didn't get the logic stream in how you replaced RGIII with Marino (i.e., replacing Marino and saying "taking RGIII over Johnson"). It makes no sense to me. The two of them couldn't be more different.
Also, I never said RGIII was or was not a bust, see my prior post within this thread. It appears that he is a bust, but his book hasn't ended. We have to wait until that time. What I am saying regarding my prior post is that a QB's total playoff wins, or even in extreme cases, SB wins, doesn't in and of itself make a QB better than another QB that has less. I used Marino as an "extreme" example because he doesn't have any SB wins but is one of the most prolific passers in the history of the game; meanwhile Brad Johnson had an above average career but wasn't as storied. Additionally, Marino is a hall of famer; there is no chance Johnson will be inducted.
But I understand what you are saying and agree that the fact RGIII went 10-6 his rookie year doesn't NOT make him a bust regardless of what he did thereafter. I agree with that fully. My Marino point was more that playoff wins are the sole determinable in rating one QB over another.
Last edited by markshark84 on Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
DEHog wrote:Don't look now but another RO QB is getting benched...
I still love that thread from week one of September about how Kaepernick, Bradford and the read option are the future of the league. One of my all time faves.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You can't do epic **** with basic people." - DJax "We're on the rise, man, whether you're on the train or not." - Josh Norman
DEHog wrote:Don't look now but another RO QB is getting benched...
I still love that thread from week one of September about how Kaepernick, Bradford and the read option are the future of the league. One of my all time faves.
that and the stories from the media last week that 2 of the better drop back QBs (Manning & Luck) are having horrible season this year and should be benched
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
DEHog wrote:Don't look now but another RO QB is getting benched...
I still love that thread from week one of September about how Kaepernick, Bradford and the read option are the future of the league. One of my all time faves.
Soon to be renamed the "Read The Clipboard Option"
“He was at that time the smartest player in the league. We did everything we could to try to eliminate him from the play. We knew if we didn’t neutralize him, then we had less of a chance of winning.” - John Hannah on Chris Hanburger
There are "analysts" who still defend the read option...saying that Kaepernick and Griffin would be successful with an offense tailored to their strengths. They always fail to mention the very real possibility of injury though. That's a head scratcher.
I don't really feel like RG3 has been a bust. If he was just a player taken with the second pick of the draft, he's probably performed better than some others.
I see him more as a guy we gambled big on and it didn't pay off. The organization is the bust.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You can't do epic **** with basic people." - DJax "We're on the rise, man, whether you're on the train or not." - Josh Norman
“He was at that time the smartest player in the league. We did everything we could to try to eliminate him from the play. We knew if we didn’t neutralize him, then we had less of a chance of winning.” - John Hannah on Chris Hanburger
riggofan wrote:I don't really feel like RG3 has been a bust. If he was just a player taken with the second pick of the draft, he's probably performed better than some others. I see him more as a guy we gambled big on and it didn't pay off. The organization is the bust.
true dat - well, part of it anyway - hopefully, that part of the franchise is no longer making stupid decisions
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
I started this thread and honestly, wasn't thinking of RGIII...and the thread is 95% RGIII. Until he's gone, that'll be the case, I guess.
I started this thread as both my brother and friend consider a player who is expected to do well but gets hurt and can't perform -- A bust. I don't. I've always described that word (in my own head anyway) as a player who doesn't live up to expectations, like Ryan Leaf, a bust. However, I wouldn't call Courtney Brown a bust...because of all the injuries that derailed his career.
I will say one thing about RGIII here - I do believe a lot of his problems are the serious injuries he incurred and how he spent all his time rehabbing, not watching film, leaning defenses, etc... I go back to the start of Season 2 and he should NOT have started Game 1. He was not ready to play...not even physically ready. Season 3, he played okay in the first game, then got hurt again in game 2 -- Not sure I'm seeing that burst anymore. Maybe he's healed now and his speed/burst is back. Sorry to say, we won't see it as a Redskin!
