A Bust?

[fredp45]

What do people think about the word -- BUST?

Does Bust mean, doesn't live up to billing -- on the field? Can injuries throw you into the "Bust" category?

Clearly, Ryan Leaf was a Bust. Was Courtney Brown, who was a great player in college, but never got to show it on the field due to injuries? There was a guy years ago, Steve Emtman for the Colts -- number 1 pick in the '92 draft and was a dominant player at Univ of Washington -- he played only parts of a few years before retiring due to injuries. He actually was on the skins for a few games in '97.

Thanks for helping me settle a disagreement!

[SKINS#1]

Does Bust mean, doesn't live up to billing -- on the field? Can injuries throw you into the "Bust" category?

IMO, the answer is yes to both questions.

[tribeofjudah]

When I think BUST = woman's B@@Bs

[Burgundy&GoldForever]

If a player doesn't live up to expectations for any reason he is a bust. For example, if a player costs three first round draft picks plus a second round draft pick and goes 5-15 in his last twenty games he is a bust.

[KILO]

I don't think if someone ends up with career defining injuries that they can be defined as a bust. If he doesn't put in the work and can't hack it then he's a bust (Laron Landry, Michael Westbrook, Rod Gardner). If he's a diva and thinks he's a superstar but is just average than he's a bust (Ochocinco).

[SkinsJock]

You're right KILO but B&GF has an issue with RG3 and needs to use his own criteria here

if B&GF thinks you're a bust - there's no discussion, RG3 is an obvious failure at QB ...

[Deadskins]

If a player doesn't live up to expectations for any reason he is a bust. For example, if a player costs three first round draft picks plus a second round draft pick and goes 5-15 in his last twenty games he is a bust.

No, RGIII is not a bust, and never will be, even if he never plays another snap of football. In hindsight he may not have been worth what was paid for him, but setting NFL records and winning ROTY mean that he will never enter the bust category. And IMO, injuries can't make you a bust either. Underperforming is all that can make you a bust.

[Burgundy&GoldForever]

No, RGIII is not a bust, and never will be, even if he never plays another snap of football. In hindsight he may not have been worth what was paid for him, but setting NFL records and winning ROTY mean that he will never enter the bust category. And IMO, injuries can't make you a bust either. Underperforming is all that can make you a bust.

For three 1sts and a 2nd a player should be Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, and Peyton Manning all rolled into one. Not Randall Cunningham and Michael Vick. There are a list of players who never lived up to expectations but none of them cost what he who I never named cost. There isn't another player on that list who cost two 1st round draft picks, let alone three plus a 2nd rounder. Rookie of the year is a one hit wonder award. Some of those names include Sam Bradford, Percy Harvin, Vince Young, and Cadillac Williams. Big deal. Three firsts and a 2nd for a player whose crowning achievement is a division title with a 10-6 record? There isn't a GM anywhere who would consider that anything other than a bust. Take the player you and the person above you whom I have had on ignore for weeks named out of the equation and insert any player you like in his stead. It will never equal anything more than the biggest bust in NFL history based upon return on investment ratio.

[StorminMormon86]

If a player doesn't live up to expectations for any reason he is a bust. For example, if a player costs three first round draft picks plus a second round draft pick and goes 5-15 in his last twenty games he is a bust.

No, RGIII is not a bust, and never will be, even if he never plays another snap of football. In hindsight he may not have been worth what was paid for him, but setting NFL records and winning ROTY mean that he will never enter the bust category. And IMO, injuries can't make you a bust either. Underperforming is all that can make you a bust.

At this point, he is a bust. Rick Mirer did the same thing he did (exception being he didn't win ROY because Bettis was a rookie that year too), and virtually everyone considers him a bust. Mirer and Griffin are eerily similar in the praise they got their rookie years to how quickly they descended. Granted, Mirer wasn't injured as a rookie, but the comparison is there.

[Deadskins]

No, RGIII is not a bust, and never will be, even if he never plays another snap of football. In hindsight he may not have been worth what was paid for him, but setting NFL records and winning ROTY mean that he will never enter the bust category. And IMO, injuries can't make you a bust either. Underperforming is all that can make you a bust.

For three 1sts and a 2nd a player should be Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, and Peyton Manning all rolled into one. Not Randall Cunningham and Michael Vick. There are a list of players who never lived up to expectations but none of them cost what he who I never named cost. There isn't another player on that list who cost two 1st round draft picks, let alone three plus a 2nd rounder. Rookie of the year is a one hit wonder award. Some of those names include Sam Bradford, Percy Harvin, Vince Young, and Cadillac Williams. Big deal. Three firsts and a 2nd for a player whose crowning achievement is a division title with a 10-6 record? There isn't a GM anywhere who would consider that anything other than a bust. Take the player you and the person above you whom I have had on ignore for weeks named out of the equation and insert any player you like in his stead. It will never equal anything more than the biggest bust in NFL history based upon return on investment ratio.

Yes, ROTY was a byproduct of the season he had, but none of those you mentioned set numerous NFL records. RGIII was a once in a generation talent. All the talk about the hits he was taking were moot because it wasn't because of the ferocity of the hit that he got injured. He hyperextended his knee because of the pendulum effect, and the weakness of the previously repaired ACL. It was a freak thing.

[PulpExposure]

If a player doesn't live up to expectations for any reason he is a bust. For example, if a player costs three first round draft picks plus a second round draft pick and goes 5-15 in his last twenty games he is a bust.

No, RGIII is not a bust, and never will be, even if he never plays another snap of football. In hindsight he may not have been worth what was paid for him, but setting NFL records and winning ROTY mean that he will never enter the bust category. And IMO, injuries can't make you a bust either. Underperforming is all that can make you a bust.

At this point, he is a bust. Rick Mirer did the same thing he did (exception being he didn't win ROY because Bettis was a rookie that year too), and virtually everyone considers him a bust. Mirer and Griffin are eerily similar in the praise they got their rookie years to how quickly they descended. Granted, Mirer wasn't injured as a rookie, but the comparison is there.

Wait, what? I had to look it up because I remember Mirer sucked from the get go. He threw for 2800 yards, 12 TDs and 17 INTs his rookie year, for a 6-10 team. 56% completion and rushed for 340 yards and 3 TDs.

Not even close to what RG3 did his rookie year.

Am I missing something?

[OldSchool]

Yes, ROTY was a byproduct of the season he had, but none of those you mentioned set numerous NFL records. RGIII was a once in a generation talent. All the talk about the hits he was taking were moot because it wasn't because of the ferocity of the hit that he got injured. He hyperextended his knee because of the pendulum effect, and the weakness of the previously repaired ACL. It was a freak thing.[/quote]

There is nothing freakish about a running QB getting crushed in the NFL, it's to be expected and sooner rather than later if they have with a wide receivers type body like Robert. Griffin was THOUGHT to be a once in a generation talent but wasn't because he doesn't think quick enough to play QB in the NFL. Griffin before his injury was highly athletic with a good arm but athletic guys with arms come along like that fairly frequently that why so many colleges run option systems. Griffin's 2012 top end speed and lateral quickness is rare but highly athletic guys with big arms graduate every year and some of them with size which Robert lacks.

You and many others had a once in a generation or even once in a lifetime thrill watching him in 2012 but he was never a gifted NFL QB prospect despite the 3 first and 1 second round picks the Skins squandered on him because he lacked the key attribute needed for real success, the analytical processing speed to play QB in the NFL. His inability to become even close to competent in the pocket for Kyle Shanahan and Jay Gruden is unrelated to his injuries. Robert can still throw 70-80 yards and do so accurately enough to play but is useless since he can't figure out what do fast enough to run an NFL offense.

[oj]

Albert Hynesworth is a 'bust', RGIII is a valuable contributor that we'd hate to give up in a trade. But, if you insist.

[StorminMormon86]

Wait, what? I had to look it up because I remember Mirer sucked from the get go. He threw for 2800 yards, 12 TDs and 17 INTs his rookie year, for a 6-10 team. 56% completion and rushed for 340 yards and 3 TDs.

Not even close to what RG3 did his rookie year.

Am I missing something?

I said their praise was similar, not stats.

Mirer set a whole slew of rookie records as a quarterback, was almost ROY, drafted 2nd overall, was called "The Next Joe Montana", etc. The hype for both was ridiculous. And Mirer didn't know how to operate out of the pocket. The comparison is there.

[SkinsJock]

'almost' as in horseshoes - it's still a stretch ... Griffin is big disappointment - he's not a bust .... yet

[Burgundy&GoldForever]

Albert Hynesworth is a 'bust', RGIII is a valuable contributor that we'd hate to give up in a trade. But, if you insist.

Yes, he's contributed to the team going 5-15 in his last 20 starts. 90.6 career QB Rating (10th all-time) and can't win games because he can't pass from the pocket, can't read progressions, can't hit open receivers, can't read defenses, can't run away from everyone, and can't protect himself. Valuable contributor? His job is to win games now (not live in the past like some "fans" keep doing). His contribution to that is virtually nothing. Do you want a list of the quarterbacks who cost one pick (not four) and have won more games in their last 20 starts?

[SkinsJock]

that's your opinion but it's not shared by many here who have proven over a lot of time to be a lot more knowledgeable than you and I ... so I'll follow their lead on this - your just wrong ... again

[OldSchool]

A specular waste of a first round pick is a bust. An epic failure, waste of multiple high draft picks and once in a franchise draft brain fart that involves multiple first round picks squandered on a guy with absolutely no aptitude for his position should be called Griffin.

[Deadskins]

His inability to become even close to competent in the pocket for Kyle Shanahan and Jay Gruden is unrelated to his injuries. Robert can still throw 70-80 yards and do so accurately enough to play but is useless since he can't figure out what do fast enough to run an NFL offense.

This is what I disagree with. I don't accept your "can't think fast enough, or spatially" BS. I think his slowness to develop as a pocket passer is directly related to his injuries. He no longer is willing to keep his eyes downfield with any kind of perceived rush in his face. He is tentative, and pulls the ball down much too quickly. Unfortunately, this only exacerbates the problem, and results in him taking more hits. It is a self-fulfilling issue. It is probably best for him in the long run, that he doesn't play while the memory of the injuries fade.

[Burgundy&GoldForever]

His inability to become even close to competent in the pocket for Kyle Shanahan and Jay Gruden is unrelated to his injuries. Robert can still throw 70-80 yards and do so accurately enough to play but is useless since he can't figure out what do fast enough to run an NFL offense.

This is what I disagree with. I don't accept your "can't think fast enough, or spatially" BS. I think his slowness to develop as a pocket passer is directly related to his injuries. He no longer is willing to keep his eyes downfield with any kind of perceived rush in his face. He is tentative, and pulls the ball down much too quickly. Unfortunately, this only exacerbates the problem, and results in him taking more hits. It is a self-fulfilling issue. It is probably best for him in the long run, that he doesn't play while the memory of the injuries fade.

I think his slowness to develop as a pocket passer is due to the fact he's never done it before at any level and now he's being asked to do it at the NFL level. That's on the idiot who insisted on drafting him with full and complete knowledge he lacked the necessary skills to play the position. If you're Mike Shanahan, with Super Bowls rings since the Redskins last won one and supposedly full personnel control and offensive knowledge that has earned you the nickname "The Mastermind" from other NFL head coaches, and you tell the chief idiot in charge and his yes-man that drafting RGIII is a bad idea for those reasons, and no one listens to you because they think they're smarter than you are, you're going to be pissed off. Shanahan didn't want to spend years teaching fundamentals to a supposed franchise quarterback. No NFL head coach does. Not even Jay Gruden.

[markshark84]

"Bust" is a tough term because it is relative and subjective. I think in order to make that determination, we'd have to quantify the expectations. Some will say the fact RGIII was ROTY makes him not a bust regardless of his future production while other says that wasn't enough given his overall production and what we traded for him.

Personally, I don't think what we traded for him should be considered. If we didn't trade all that, he'd still have been the #2 pick in the draft. What we traded for him was our FO's issue; not RGIIIs.

I consider injuries to be a consideration if they aren't the "freak" kind and they have a history of injury issues prior to being drafted. When you draft a player, you have to consider injuries and if those injuries occured prior to being drafted and you are still drafted at #2, then subsequent injuries are more likely. I know this is a swiss cheese argument and it is hard to put into words what I am trying to say but basically --- if they were on the table and continued into their NFL career then they should be considered, although I would say this is just as much on the GM as it is the player.

I don't think breaking records is a huge consideration either. The greatest contribution RGIII made was leading us to the playoffs.

Personally, I think it is hard to consider RGIII a "bust" at this point. His career is still not over. I also think 2012 set future production expectations that are unmatched. While I think most expected he'd be better than he is now, some of this stems from 2012. This debate can't be answered for a couple years most likely.

[StorminMormon86]

Even if you take the injuries out of the equation, I'd still think there would be similar stats and regressions from 2012 to now. See Colin Kaepernick.

[Burgundy&GoldForever]

"Bust" is a tough term because it is relative and subjective. I think in order to make that determination, we'd have to quantify the expectations. Some will say the fact RGIII was ROTY makes him not a bust regardless of his future production while other says that wasn't enough given his overall production and what we traded for him.

Personally, I don't think what we traded for him should be considered. If we didn't trade all that, he'd still have been the #2 pick in the draft. What we traded for him was our FO's issue; not RGIIIs.

I consider injuries to be a consideration if they aren't the "freak" kind and they have a history of injury issues prior to being drafted. When you draft a player, you have to consider injuries and if those injuries occured prior to being drafted and you are still drafted at #2, then subsequent injuries are more likely. I know this is a swiss cheese argument and it is hard to put into words what I am trying to say but basically --- if they were on the table and continued into their NFL career then they should be considered, although I would say this is just as much on the GM as it is the player.

I don't think breaking records is a huge consideration either. The greatest contribution RGIII made was leading us to the playoffs.

Personally, I think it is hard to consider RGIII a "bust" at this point. His career is still not over. I also think 2012 set future production expectations that are unmatched. While I think most expected he'd be better than he is now, some of this stems from 2012. This debate can't be answered for a couple years most likely.

The best he's ever done and the best he's ever going to do is 10-6. For a #2 overall pick that's a bust. Tim Tebow did more.

[StorminMormon86]

"Bust" is a tough term because it is relative and subjective. I think in order to make that determination, we'd have to quantify the expectations. Some will say the fact RGIII was ROTY makes him not a bust regardless of his future production while other says that wasn't enough given his overall production and what we traded for him.

Personally, I don't think what we traded for him should be considered. If we didn't trade all that, he'd still have been the #2 pick in the draft. What we traded for him was our FO's issue; not RGIIIs.

I consider injuries to be a consideration if they aren't the "freak" kind and they have a history of injury issues prior to being drafted. When you draft a player, you have to consider injuries and if those injuries occured prior to being drafted and you are still drafted at #2, then subsequent injuries are more likely. I know this is a swiss cheese argument and it is hard to put into words what I am trying to say but basically --- if they were on the table and continued into their NFL career then they should be considered, although I would say this is just as much on the GM as it is the player.

I don't think breaking records is a huge consideration either. The greatest contribution RGIII made was leading us to the playoffs.

Personally, I think it is hard to consider RGIII a "bust" at this point. His career is still not over. I also think 2012 set future production expectations that are unmatched. While I think most expected he'd be better than he is now, some of this stems from 2012. This debate can't be answered for a couple years most likely.

The best he's ever done and the best he's ever going to do is 10-6. For a #2 overall pick that's a bust. Tim Tebow did more.

9-6.

[Deadskins]

Tim Tebow did more.

That is a ridiculous statement. The only category where that is even remotely plausible is playoff wins.