Evaluating Griff Against Vikings

[Countertrey]

Yeah its really not, but I guess we're just going to keep saying it all season.

The way I see it, RGIII and our OL have something in common --- they are both playing mediocre football this year.

I haven't been to the forum in a while but from what I can gather, the RGIII supporters will continually cite our OL as the problem every monday after a loss. They are also a sensitive bunch --- because the vast majority of them will take this post as meaning that I'm an anti-RGIII guy.... which isn't the case.

...yet, (@ risk of being accused of over sensitivity) you keep banging the drum...

The problem is, many of us have been privileged to watch some of the best O-line play in NFL history. Perhaps we are jaded... But this line is just weak. We can't run block straight up, and, despite the protests, I have seen way too much turnstile action, especially on the right, in pass pro.

Bob's play was better than mediocre... Not great, but easily should have won the game with a bit of defensive backbone.

[riggofan]

Yeah its really not, but I guess we're just going to keep saying it all season.

The way I see it, RGIII and our OL have something in common --- they are both playing mediocre football this year.

I haven't been to the forum in a while but from what I can gather, the RGIII supporters will continually cite our OL as the problem every monday after a loss. They are also a sensitive bunch --- because the vast majority of them will take this post as meaning that I'm an anti-RGIII guy.... which isn't the case.

I'm not an "RGIII supporter", I would just like to see him play more than two games to know if he's playing "mediocre football" not not. If we're judging guys on two games then Kirk Cousins has had one hell of a year.

[markshark84]

Yeah its really not, but I guess we're just going to keep saying it all season.

The way I see it, RGIII and our OL have something in common --- they are both playing mediocre football this year.

I haven't been to the forum in a while but from what I can gather, the RGIII supporters will continually cite our OL as the problem every monday after a loss. They are also a sensitive bunch --- because the vast majority of them will take this post as meaning that I'm an anti-RGIII guy.... which isn't the case.

I agree that blind supporters of RGIII tend to over do it (welcome to the world!). I think the only problem with your post is the equivocating statement that RGIII is playing mediocre football this year just like the O-line. It isn't wrong, just inaccurate. Clearly your statement assumes we all recognize that the O line has played 9 games and Griffin has played 2 (Leaving aside whether his game against the Vikings was mediocre or not) AND despite this fact, it is still the case their respective mediocrity is equal. Who the hell knows, but my point is your statement is either intentionally baiting or not fully baked. Either way, it is perfectly constructed to elicit the kind of oversensitive reaction from RGIII supporters you are looking for. That's cool and all, but don't act like it would just be the fault of oversensitive RGIII supporters for taking your statement as being at least tinged with anti-RGIIIism.

On a message board with outright lunatic claims that RGIII is a bust, death warmed over, and done, reaction to even the tinge of antiRGIIIism is probably gonna get blasted because that nerve is already raw.

I agree with much of what you are saying -- espeically in terms of the poster dynamic on this forum. My "mediocrity" statement is based on RGIII's play this season --- all 2 games of it (so, take that any way you see fit). And in all honesty, I thought his game against HOU was horrible. His game against MIN was an improvement -- hence mediocre overall. I agree that 2 games is a small scale to judge upon, but that is all we have currently --- but IMHO, 2 games can tell you a good deal about a player; especially when playing vs. a good D and a bad one. I fully expect to see RGIII improvement over the remainder of the season.

And I understood/expected my response would elicit a knee jerk reaction out of the more sensitive RGIII supporters on this forum --- because they are oversensitive (and I think you are correct in why they are oversensitive --- to a degree, I also think it is because they also don't want to believe there is a possibility that the player we invested so much in may not pan out). Regardless, that is the reason why I put the final statement --- it was really so that I didn't get the sensitive RGIII backlash usually found on this forum (because by saying sensitive RGIII supporters will react --- by reacting/replying to my post the sensitive RGIII supporters would then constructively be admiting they are over sensitive......).

That all being said, I don't know why saying RGIII's play has been "mediocre" should be considered anti-RGIII --- especially considering it clearly has been. My statement was an acceptance that our OL has not played as well as they need to --- and the fact RGIII hasn't either. I am not going to upgrade my opinion of a players performance because of the uniform he wears.

And to you final paragraph --- I honestly don't read that many RGIII "bust" type posts. It is really only a couple guys vs. the dozens that support him. I think some of the more disillusioned posters think that because we are on a skins forum, everyone should be to-a-degree pro skins biased..... and if they aren't, well they're not real fans. I am constantly accused of being a "narc" on this forum. Meanwhile in the real world, if you asked my friends and family to describe me in a paragraph, my passion for all things redskins would get a mention.

That all being said, there is a reason the RGIII nerve is raw -- and it doesn't come from the 2 or 3 anti-RGIII guys on this forum. There are serious concerns with his play. I just hope they are resolved by season's end.

[StorminMormon86]

There are serious concerns with his play.

This is the crux of the "pro RGIII" and "anti RGIII" crowds arguments. People legitimately questioning whether or not he is "the guy" get branded as anti Griffin or haters. And people who believe he's unquestionably "the guy" get labeled Griffin lovers, etc.

Anyone who isn't concerned with his style of play is definitely delusional though.

[riggofan]

There are serious concerns with his play.

This is the crux of the "pro RGIII" and "anti RGIII" crowds arguments. People legitimately questioning whether or not he is "the guy" get branded as anti Griffin or haters. And people who believe he's unquestionably "the guy" get labeled Griffin lovers, etc.

Anyone who isn't concerned with his style of play is definitely delusional though.

I'm not concerned with his style of play. I'm concerned about his durability.

[emoses14]

There are serious concerns with his play.

This is the crux of the "pro RGIII" and "anti RGIII" crowds arguments. People legitimately questioning whether or not he is "the guy" get branded as anti Griffin or haters. And people who believe he's unquestionably "the guy" get labeled Griffin lovers, etc.

Anyone who isn't concerned with his style of play is definitely delusional though.

This couldn't be truer. All of it, really. I'm just trying to figure out when RGIII became such a polarizing player. The sociologist and fan in me is even more curious as to why.

[emoses14]

The way I see it, RGIII and our OL have something in common --- they are both playing mediocre football this year.

I haven't been to the forum in a while but from what I can gather, the RGIII supporters will continually cite our OL as the problem every monday after a loss. They are also a sensitive bunch --- because the vast majority of them will take this post as meaning that I'm an anti-RGIII guy.... which isn't the case.

I agree that blind supporters of RGIII tend to over do it (welcome to the world!). I think the only problem with your post is the equivocating statement that RGIII is playing mediocre football this year just like the O-line. It isn't wrong, just inaccurate. Clearly your statement assumes we all recognize that the O line has played 9 games and Griffin has played 2 (Leaving aside whether his game against the Vikings was mediocre or not) AND despite this fact, it is still the case their respective mediocrity is equal. Who the hell knows, but my point is your statement is either intentionally baiting or not fully baked. Either way, it is perfectly constructed to elicit the kind of oversensitive reaction from RGIII supporters you are looking for. That's cool and all, but don't act like it would just be the fault of oversensitive RGIII supporters for taking your statement as being at least tinged with anti-RGIIIism.

On a message board with outright lunatic claims that RGIII is a bust, death warmed over, and done, reaction to even the tinge of antiRGIIIism is probably gonna get blasted because that nerve is already raw.

I agree with much of what you are saying -- espeically in terms of the poster dynamic on this forum. My "mediocrity" statement is based on RGIII's play this season --- all 2 games of it (so, take that any way you see fit). And in all honesty, I thought his game against HOU was horrible. His game against MIN was an improvement -- hence mediocre overall. I agree that 2 games is a small scale to judge upon, but that is all we have currently --- but IMHO, 2 games can tell you a good deal about a player; especially when playing vs. a good D and a bad one. I fully expect to see RGIII improvement over the remainder of the season.

And I understood/expected my response would elicit a knee jerk reaction out of the more sensitive RGIII supporters on this forum --- because they are oversensitive (and I think you are correct in why they are oversensitive --- to a degree, I also think it is because they also don't want to believe there is a possibility that the player we invested so much in may not pan out). Regardless, that is the reason why I put the final statement --- it was really so that I didn't get the sensitive RGIII backlash usually found on this forum (because by saying sensitive RGIII supporters will react --- by reacting/replying to my post the sensitive RGIII supporters would then constructively be admiting they are over sensitive......).

That all being said, I don't know why saying RGIII's play has been "mediocre" should be considered anti-RGIII --- especially considering it clearly has been. My statement was an acceptance that our OL has not played as well as they need to --- and the fact RGIII hasn't either. I am not going to upgrade my opinion of a players performance because of the uniform he wears.

And to you final paragraph --- I honestly don't read that many RGIII "bust" type posts. It is really only a couple guys vs. the dozens that support him. I think some of the more disillusioned posters think that because we are on a skins forum, everyone should be to-a-degree pro skins biased..... and if they aren't, well they're not real fans. I am constantly accused of being a "narc" on this forum. Meanwhile in the real world, if you asked my friends and family to describe me in a paragraph, my passion for all things redskins would get a mention.

That all being said, there is a reason the RGIII nerve is raw -- and it doesn't come from the 2 or 3 anti-RGIII guys on this forum. There are serious concerns with his play. I just hope they are resolved by season's end.

Interesting. Since we seem to agree a good deal, I am responding to the one thing I disagree on qualitatively, if not quantitatively; your last paragraph.

I haven't counted the number of anti-RGIII guys, nor their posts, but my perception of this board for most of the offseason and the early part of the season ESPECIALLY when Kirk first came in against J-ville and against the Eagles, has been a constant barrage of real anti-RGIIIism (I don't count guys like you and StorminMormon to name 2 in this category, FYI) and not just legitimate criticism of his play. I mean there is one poster who literally started 10 different threads since game 1 of the preseason that were nothing more than either explicitly anti-RGIII or thinly veiled KC puff threads that were just shots at RGIII. And since tuesday after KC's benching, that guy has not posted once on this site. Even though the MN game provided legitimate fodder to discuss RGIII's play, the chance for outright bashing simply was gone.

I think the nerve is raw because you can only remove so much cover off a nerve before it hurts no matter what you do. So while the overreactions are proRGIII camp's fault, the frenzied state they're in is not. It has made it really, really difficult to even have a legit discourse about his play. And that sucks. We are just now starting to get to the point where things are calming down and maybe we can have discourse about the beauty of his long ball and the annoyance of throwing a dirtball on 4th down to keep the MN game alive, or how 2 of his 5 sacks against MN were his fault, or how he has progressed since the Houston while rehabbing a dislocation and what that might mean going forward, without it devolving into "Backyard Bob" vs. "the O-line is horrendous." People are just tired of wading through all that nonsense, well I was.

[riggofan]

I just have no respect for the fair weather fans out there. Loved RGIII when he was a rookie busting his *** to push us into the playoffs that year. Couldn't even give him a month back from his ACL surgery to declare him a bust the next year. Dude has played two games this season and the "fans" are on here complaining that he's "led us to another 3-6 record".

Its possible RGIII won't pan out, won't be durable enough. But just watch out how quickly the "fans" start loving Griffin again if he wins some games.

[StorminMormon86]

I just have no respect for the fair weather fans out there. Loved RGIII when he was a rookie busting his *** to push us into the playoffs that year. Couldn't even give him a month back from his ACL surgery to declare him a bust the next year. Dude has played two games this season and the "fans" are on here complaining that he's "led us to another 3-6 record".

Its possible RGIII won't pan out, won't be durable enough. But just watch out how quickly the "fans" start loving Griffin again if he wins some games.

I agree to an extent.

To start, I was never "in love" with Griffin. I knew nothing of him from college (other than he won the Heisman), and was "cautiously optimistic" when we drafted him. I was also a bit miffed back in 2012 when a majority of the fan base were claiming that he carried the team into the playoffs, forgetting that Alfred Morris was probably the biggest reason we made it during the last 3-4 weeks. Then 2013 happened. My view on the whole thing is hoping he's not another Jason Campbell. For me personally, I was done with Campbell after his third year. The guy was getting excuse after excuse from the fan base about how many different coordinators and coaches he had to work with, etc. and how he deserved at least five years. And he got five years. Which sucked. Hindsight being 20/20, Campbell is now the butt of a lot of Skins fans jokes. I hope that won't be the case with Griffin, but if he doesn't start winning games, I don't want to wait five years. Doesn't matter to me how many draft picks we gave up to get him.

[StorminMormon86]

This couldn't be truer. All of it, really. I'm just trying to figure out when RGIII became such a polarizing player. The sociologist and fan in me is even more curious as to why.

My personal theory was that back in 2012, we won the division, and Griffin won ROTY. Griffin got heaps of praise (rightfully so) from the fans, and a lot of people thought we were going to be world beaters for the next 10+ years. Then 2013 happened. All of the magic was gone. It just seemed like a lot of people bought into the hype, and then got smacked with a hard dose of the reality that Griffin was no super man, and actually was going to struggle to adjust in the NFL. Now here we are in year 3, and despite some freak injuries limiting his play time, people are afraid that "the guy" is waiting in another draft.

[riggofan]

I hope that won't be the case with Griffin, but if he doesn't start winning games, I don't want to wait five years. Doesn't matter to me how many draft picks we gave up to get him.

Yeah I mostly agree with what you're saying, especially the comment about the draft picks. But there has to be some sanity in evaluating RGIII. Our defense has allowed the second most points in the league over the past two years. How can we possibly be saying, "RGIII needs to start winning games" when the defense is THAT terrible?

[riggofan]

This couldn't be truer. All of it, really. I'm just trying to figure out when RGIII became such a polarizing player. The sociologist and fan in me is even more curious as to why.

My personal theory was that back in 2012, we won the division, and Griffin won ROTY. Griffin got heaps of praise (rightfully so) from the fans, and a lot of people thought we were going to be world beaters for the next 10+ years. Then 2013 happened. All of the magic was gone. It just seemed like a lot of people bought into the hype, and then got smacked with a hard dose of the reality that Griffin was no super man, and actually was going to struggle to adjust in the NFL.

Hmmm. I can't remember. Did Griffin show up in 2013 suddenly having trouble adjusting to the NFL? Or did he completely shred his knee in a playoff game and come back to play too early?

[DarthMonk]

This couldn't be truer. All of it, really. I'm just trying to figure out when RGIII became such a polarizing player. The sociologist and fan in me is even more curious as to why.

My personal theory was that back in 2012, we won the division, and Griffin won ROTY. Griffin got heaps of praise (rightfully so) from the fans, and a lot of people thought we were going to be world beaters for the next 10+ years. Then 2013 happened. All of the magic was gone. It just seemed like a lot of people bought into the hype, and then got smacked with a hard dose of the reality that Griffin was no super man, and actually was going to struggle to adjust in the NFL.

Hmmm. I can't remember. Did Griffin show up in 2013 suddenly having trouble adjusting to the NFL? Or did he completely shred his knee in a playoff game and come back to play too early?

The latter.

[markshark84]

That all being said, there is a reason the RGIII nerve is raw -- and it doesn't come from the 2 or 3 anti-RGIII guys on this forum. There are serious concerns with his play. I just hope they are resolved by season's end.

Interesting. Since we seem to agree a good deal, I am responding to the one thing I disagree on qualitatively, if not quantitatively; your last paragraph.

I haven't counted the number of anti-RGIII guys, nor their posts, but my perception of this board for most of the offseason and the early part of the season ESPECIALLY when Kirk first came in against J-ville and against the Eagles, has been a constant barrage of real anti-RGIIIism (I don't count guys like you and StorminMormon to name 2 in this category, FYI) and not just legitimate criticism of his play. I mean there is one poster who literally started 10 different threads since game 1 of the preseason that were nothing more than either explicitly anti-RGIII or thinly veiled KC puff threads that were just shots at RGIII. And since tuesday after KC's benching, that guy has not posted once on this site. Even though the MN game provided legitimate fodder to discuss RGIII's play, the chance for outright bashing simply was gone.

I think the nerve is raw because you can only remove so much cover off a nerve before it hurts no matter what you do. So while the overreactions are proRGIII camp's fault, the frenzied state they're in is not. It has made it really, really difficult to even have a legit discourse about his play. And that sucks. We are just now starting to get to the point where things are calming down and maybe we can have discourse about the beauty of his long ball and the annoyance of throwing a dirtball on 4th down to keep the MN game alive, or how 2 of his 5 sacks against MN were his fault, or how he has progressed since the Houston while rehabbing a dislocation and what that might mean going forward, without it devolving into "Backyard Bob" vs. "the O-line is horrendous." People are just tired of wading through all that nonsense, well I was.

So to be clear --- do you believe the pro-RGIIIers are so sensitive because of the posters in the beginning of the year who were basically devoted to bashing RGIII and not due to RGIII's current play? That is a serious question. Because the way I see it, the anti-RGIII/pro-Cousinsers have been proven 100% wrong --- at least as it relates to their assessment of Cousins..... and because of that, their RGIII assessment now carries less weight. There is a reason those posters are gone from the forum --- they are embarrassed and don't want to face the music of their failures. This has become quite the common theme in modern day american society. People no longer like to be held accountable for their actions or statements --- at least the bad ones. And while the pro-RGIIIers haven't been proven right; they haven't been proven wrong either --- and that is one better than the anti-RGIII/pro-Cousinsers out there. So the way I see it --- the pro-RGIIIers shouldn't be sensitive any longer because what was said in the past (and what will be said in the future until proven otherwise) by the anti-RGIIers has lost a good deal of its credibility.

I almost agree with all of your last paragraph except for the pro-RGIIIers "frenzied state" not being their fault. I personally believe each individual is accountable for their actions --- and their actions are their own. Whatever state they may be in is something accepted by them. They are in control of themselves (although I understand what you are saying). I think this is one of the reasons some see me as being anti-RGIII --- which I'm not AT ALL. I think posters have created this great divide where you are either one or the other and there is no inbetween --- much like politics. It has made it very difficult to have an objective discussion about anything on here and one of the reason I frequent the site less often. I am an objective guy and feel that on this site, you have to be one or the other --- and if you don't pick ---- people will pick for you. I hate that.

[cowboykillerzRGiii]

^ is it that "proRG3"ers are overly sensitive or that having to call bs on bs long enough; has turned into quick defense and less tolerance of critical analysis of his play? Especially when he isnt getting his rightful praise in the same analysis.

Id also argue that there are some of us who just support our starter, thick and thin, like most other trams. Flacco, Ohno, Cam, rapistburger, Cutler, Stafford, etc etc are all GOOD qbs.. all of hem have in common is they are for sure the starters and fans support them- yet they have lost games, played poorly, even been out played by the back up in some cases.. Why doesnt Rob deserve the same faith? He killed his rookie year- was that not awesome? Did he not earn our support?

I personally want to win. I will support Campbell all over again until the next Starter is named.. wih Kirk and Colt- despite starting games, neither of them took the title from RG3 as the starter... so call it what you want but I support the doode who has the keys until he doesnt. Ill point out posts that arebone sided and defend his play if he earns it like he has both games he played this year. We didnt lose because of him, he just couldnt shoulder the team to a W either.

Its a shame he cant fart with out people losing their minds, and how quickly all the jaw droppig highlights he has given us fleet the memory.

The TEAM needs to improve. Nearly all of it save the WR. Even our RBs are lack luster this year... oh wait thats bobs fault too, my fault!

LOL

[Kilmer72]

^ is it that "proRG3"ers are overly sensitive or that having to call bs on bs long enough; has turned into quick defense and less tolerance of critical analysis of his play? Especially when he isnt getting his rightful praise in the same analysis.

Id also argue that there are some of us who just support our starter, thick and thin, like most other trams. Flacco, Ohno, Cam, rapistburger, Cutler, Stafford, etc etc are all GOOD qbs.. all of hem have in common is they are for sure the starters and fans support them- yet they have lost games, played poorly, even been out played by the back up in some cases.. Why doesnt Rob deserve the same faith? He killed his rookie year- was that not awesome? Did he not earn our support?

I personally want to win. I will support Campbell all over again until the next Starter is named.. wih Kirk and Colt- despite starting games, neither of them took the title from RG3 as the starter... so call it what you want but I support the doode who has the keys until he doesnt. Ill point out posts that arebone sided and defend his play if he earns it like he has both games he played this year. We didnt lose because of him, he just couldnt shoulder the team to a W either.

Its a shame he cant fart with out people losing their minds, and how quickly all the jaw droppig highlights he has given us fleet the memory.

The TEAM needs to improve. Nearly all of it save the WR. Even our RBs are lack luster this year... oh wait thats bobs fault too, my fault!

LOL

I blame Robert for the ozone holes and starving people on the planet also. I'm sure I can come up with more.

[DarthMonk]

I blame Robert for the ozone holes and starving people on the planet also. I'm sure I can come up with more.

I blame Bob for the DOW plummeting from 14,164 to 6,547 during the 6 months preceding Obama taking office almost 6 years ago but I also give Bob credit for Thursday's record high of 17,705. After all, it's only fair to give him credit for one if I'm gonna blame him for the other one.

[StorminMormon86]

Hmmm. I can't remember. Did Griffin show up in 2013 suddenly having trouble adjusting to the NFL? Or did he completely shred his knee in a playoff game and come back to play too early?

It was definitely an injury. But he was the one who claimed to be ready, and dumb@$$ Shanahan trotted him out there. However, he was healthy with a full off season going into this year, and still looked a lot more like 2013 than 2012 against Houston.

[StorminMormon86]

How can we possibly be saying, "RGIII needs to start winning games" when the defense is THAT terrible?

You said yourself how the fan base will start loving him again as soon as he wins some games. If the team keeps losing, no matter what the defense is doing, the fan base is going to lose it's collective mind. McCoy winning 2 in a row helped add fuel to the fire.

[cowboykillerzRGiii]

^ ironically enough the only two games our D played worth a $#!@

[DarthMonk]

^ ironically enough the only two games our D played worth a $#!@

How true.

[riggofan]

How can we possibly be saying, "RGIII needs to start winning games" when the defense is THAT terrible?

You said yourself how the fan base will start loving him again as soon as he wins some games. If the team keeps losing, no matter what the defense is doing, the fan base is going to lose it's collective mind. McCoy winning 2 in a row helped add fuel to the fire.

No doubt. I get really frustrated about the fan base, but at the same time I can't blame fans at this point. Especially after a game like they played yesterday.

[markshark84]

How can we possibly be saying, "RGIII needs to start winning games" when the defense is THAT terrible?

You said yourself how the fan base will start loving him again as soon as he wins some games. If the team keeps losing, no matter what the defense is doing, the fan base is going to lose it's collective mind. McCoy winning 2 in a row helped add fuel to the fire.

No doubt. I get really frustrated about the fan base, but at the same time I can't blame fans at this point. Especially after a game like they played yesterday.

I honestly think we have one of the more loyal fan bases in the NFL. It's been a WHILE since we were CONSISTENTLY a contender.

[riggofan]

I honestly think we have one of the more loyal fan bases in the NFL. It's been a WHILE since we were CONSISTENTLY a contender.

You're right. Fans loyalty isn't really what frustrates me, didn't mean to imply that because you're completely right. There aren't many groups of fans I can imagine would continue to put up with this, much less make THIS franchise one of the most profitable in the world.

It has definitely been a "while" since we were consistently a contender. lol.