The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

spenser wrote:Buh Bye. Its probably a good thing, because seriously you lose more credibility with each post. I don't think anyone here is saying our WR's are elite, so that is totally misconstrued. Greg Jennings... making tough catches???? Dude I watched every packer game this season, and yes he is infinitely better than our WR's, but their QB consistently puts the ball right on the numbers. Not hard to make big receptions when you have your man beat and the QB can put it in the right spot...

I don't know. At least brad7686 is trying to back up his argument with stats. Your whole argument is that JC only looks good because of his amazing receivers? (You know, all of those guys out there making "NUMEROUS leaping, twisting, over the shoulder, slowdown/comeback receptions" every game this season.) Somebody is definitely lacking credibility here, but I don't think its the other guy.

I totally agree that stats can be a little misleading, and I'm not making any kind of case for Campbell as being anything more than an average QB. But the fact remains that he is statistically better than a good chunk of the league. I see Buffalo is looking for a QB this season. Anybody doubt that Campbell would be an upgrade for them? Campbell would be an upgrade for Chicago, Tampa, Carolina, Miami, Cleveland and a bunch of other teams.

Campbell might be an upgrade for all of those teams and even the Redskins but he's still not ever going to be much of a QB

I could care less about the stats - fact is, Campbell's just not a good QB

I would not be at all surprised if he's not still our QB next year - considering all the growing pains and changes we are going to go thru in the next 2 seasons, who cares - he's not going to be here when we start playing better, that's for sure - he's not a winning QB no matter what the stats indicate

I think it is obvious why we can have some optimism.
For the first time in 10 or so years we have a GM and a credible coach(besides Gibbs).

Lets face it though. JC will get yet another chance to prove himself. The offensive line is still a huge question mark. Other then that we have plenty of reasons to be optimistic.

We have a good defense in place. The receivers started to show some life. We have a proven head coach.
When the Skins have won it all. It was with three different QBs. So the surrounding cast around the QB was outstanding. Theisman probably being the best of the three. But, my point is if the F.O. decides to build up the offensive line and further strengthen the defense? Then we would just need JC to be a game manager. I am also not opposed to bringing in a new QB either.

Apparently, because JC finished in the top half of the league this year in QB Rating and Completion % there seems to be some weird consensus among the anti-different QB Redskin fans that he is capable of running the offense for another year.

I have been scouring the net for a hot minute trying to find a blog that some guy wrote that did a very good job of combining passing and receiving statistics and interpreting the stats to show how effective the QB was in actuality.

What he did was watch film of EVERY game in the regular season this year and determine how far the ball traveled in the air (different than YPC as it removes the YAC) and then included the obvious YAC. The end result broke down the average distance traveled in the air as one stat and a separate stat averaged the YAC. One could determine that the first stat is a good indicator of mid to deep accuracy. YAC is YAC but it does give a glimpse of a QB's accuracy in general.

The usual suspects where among the highest in both stats. The QB's you'd expect to be top 10 are in the top 10. If I remember correctly JC was in the bottom 5 in both stats. Please keep in mind that the guy who did all of this research is obviously an NFL fan and not for or against Campbell. He did not have an agenda.

The research he did would take me several hours to redo and the only way I'd do it is if someone paid me. Not gonna happen. Someone else might be willing to dig into it but I just don't have the time. Sorry.

Aside from that there are some simple stats that pop out. Who led the team in YAC this year? Ganther. After him? Betts. After him? Mason. After him? Cartwright. After him? Portis!!! Check down much???

I don't want to hear (read) a thing that takes Zorn's BS offense into consideration. I don't know that I'd call his offense west coast, I'd call it a no coast offense. Anyways, his offense featured short routes, screens, etc. I'd say it was similar to Philly's but theirs was obviously more effective. Take a look at who led the Eagles in YAC this year...

Is Campbell comparable to McNabb? Of course not, I wouldn't want McNabb's inaccurate arse on this team either but he is a much much much better QB in a similar scheme who put up much much much more impressive numbers.

All in all I look forward to do the day when someone, anyone takes this guys idea and runs with it. Its a stat that takes everything into consideration unlike the typical sortable stat columns that we see today.

If he is not the long term answer, he is not the answer.

EasyMoney wrote:Apparently, because JC finished in the top half of the league this year in QB Rating and Completion % there seems to be some weird consensus among the anti-different QB Redskin fans that he is capable of running the offense for another year.

I have been scouring the net for a hot minute trying to find a blog that some guy wrote that did a very good job of combining passing and receiving statistics and interpreting the stats to show how effective the QB was in actuality.

What he did was watch film of EVERY game in the regular season this year and determine how far the ball traveled in the air (different than YPC as it removes the YAC) and then included the obvious YAC. The end result broke down the average distance traveled in the air as one stat and a separate stat averaged the YAC. One could determine that the first stat is a good indicator of mid to deep accuracy. YAC is YAC but it does give a glimpse of a QB's accuracy in general.

The usual suspects where among the highest in both stats. The QB's you'd expect to be top 10 are in the top 10. If I remember correctly JC was in the bottom 5 in both stats. Please keep in mind that the guy who did all of this research is obviously an NFL fan and not for or against Campbell. He did not have an agenda.

The research he did would take me several hours to redo and the only way I'd do it is if someone paid me. Not gonna happen. Someone else might be willing to dig into it but I just don't have the time. Sorry.

Aside from that there are some simple stats that pop out. Who led the team in YAC this year? Ganther. After him? Betts. After him? Mason. After him? Cartwright. After him? Portis!!! Check down much???

I don't want to hear (read) a thing that takes Zorn's BS offense into consideration. I don't know that I'd call his offense west coast, I'd call it a no coast offense. Anyways, his offense featured short routes, screens, etc. I'd say it was similar to Philly's but theirs was obviously more effective. Take a look at who led the Eagles in YAC this year...

Is Campbell comparable to McNabb? Of course not, I wouldn't want McNabb's inaccurate arse on this team either but he is a much much much better QB in a similar scheme who put up much much much more impressive numbers.

All in all I look forward to do the day when someone, anyone takes this guys idea and runs with it. Its a stat that takes everything into consideration unlike the typical sortable stat columns that we see today.

If he is not the long term answer, he is not the answer.

That's kind of what I was trying to say, if his stats are padded its because of the checkdowns and playcalling accounting for a lack of protection, not because we have elite pass catchers. But people will spew any kind of rhetoric to try and prove a point. I'll remember never to use stats again on this site because apparently everyone on here knows better than the stats. Just like apparently the fact that our receivers led the league in drops the season before last doesn't matter.

riggofan wrote:

spenser wrote:Buh Bye. Its probably a good thing, because seriously you lose more credibility with each post. I don't think anyone here is saying our WR's are elite, so that is totally misconstrued. Greg Jennings... making tough catches???? Dude I watched every packer game this season, and yes he is infinitely better than our WR's, but their QB consistently puts the ball right on the numbers. Not hard to make big receptions when you have your man beat and the QB can put it in the right spot...

I don't know. At least brad7686 is trying to back up his argument with stats. Your whole argument is that JC only looks good because of his amazing receivers? (You know, all of those guys out there making "NUMEROUS leaping, twisting, over the shoulder, slowdown/comeback receptions" every game this season.) Somebody is definitely lacking credibility here, but I don't think its the other guy.

I totally agree that stats can be a little misleading, and I'm not making any kind of case for Campbell as being anything more than an average QB. But the fact remains that he is statistically better than a good chunk of the league. I see Buffalo is looking for a QB this season. Anybody doubt that Campbell would be an upgrade for them? Campbell would be an upgrade for Chicago, Tampa, Carolina, Miami, Cleveland
and a bunch of other teams.

Hmmm, i dont recall indicating that i called our WR's "amazing". But thanks for trying to fight Brads Losing battle. SO let me get this straigt.. your not making a case for campbell... but yet you disagree with my assessment? You people are hilarious. Im NOT disputing the STATS, Im disputing the fact that Campbell is a consistently accurate and or top tier QB. I understand you feel bad because I so thourghly lit up brads posts.. but unfortunately that happens when you make bad posts. oh, and if someone KEPT stats of all the times a WR was open but had an Errant thrown resulting in an incompletion, then I would be more than happy to back up my argument with stats... I thnk the person lacking credability here is not only brad, but yourself. how many times do i have to reiterate the fact that I AM NOT SAYING OUR WR'S ARE ELITE OR GREAT BY ANY MEANS. what i AM saying is that, in MANY instances they had to ADJUST to poorly thrown balls. I was being somewhat Facetious in saying that those "twisting leaping" catches were helping JC's Compleation percentage. But.. when you dont get it.... you dont get it...

spenser wrote:

riggofan wrote:

spenser wrote:Buh Bye. Its probably a good thing, because seriously you lose more credibility with each post. I don't think anyone here is saying our WR's are elite, so that is totally misconstrued. Greg Jennings... making tough catches???? Dude I watched every packer game this season, and yes he is infinitely better than our WR's, but their QB consistently puts the ball right on the numbers. Not hard to make big receptions when you have your man beat and the QB can put it in the right spot...

I don't know. At least brad7686 is trying to back up his argument with stats. Your whole argument is that JC only looks good because of his amazing receivers? (You know, all of those guys out there making "NUMEROUS leaping, twisting, over the shoulder, slowdown/comeback receptions" every game this season.) Somebody is definitely lacking credibility here, but I don't think its the other guy.

I totally agree that stats can be a little misleading, and I'm not making any kind of case for Campbell as being anything more than an average QB. But the fact remains that he is statistically better than a good chunk of the league. I see Buffalo is looking for a QB this season. Anybody doubt that Campbell would be an upgrade for them? Campbell would be an upgrade for Chicago, Tampa, Carolina, Miami, Cleveland
and a bunch of other teams.

Hmmm, i dont recall indicating that i called our WR's "amazing". But thanks for trying to fight Brads Losing battle. SO let me get this straigt.. your not making a case for campbell... but yet you disagree with my assessment? You people are hilarious. Im NOT disputing the STATS, Im disputing the fact that Campbell is a consistently accurate and or top tier QB. I understand you feel bad because I so thourghly lit up brads posts.. but unfortunately that happens when you make bad posts. oh, and if someone KEPT stats of all the times a WR was open but had an Errant thrown resulting in an incompletion, then I would be more than happy to back up my argument with stats... I thnk the person lacking credability here is not only brad, but yourself. how many times do i have to reiterate the fact that I AM NOT SAYING OUR WR'S ARE ELITE OR GREAT BY ANY MEANS. what i AM saying is that, in MANY instances they had to ADJUST to poorly thrown balls. I was being somewhat Facetious in saying that those "twisting leaping" catches were helping JC's Compleation percentage. But.. when you dont get it.... you dont get it...

Flip flop much? You have never "lit up" anybody's posts by the way. You're obviously caught up in the fact that there was a dispute in this thread and you feel that you won I guess? Except I'm not sure anybody would agree with someone who can't even get their points straight.

brad7686 wrote:

spenser wrote:

riggofan wrote:

spenser wrote:Buh Bye. Its probably a good thing, because seriously you lose more credibility with each post. I don't think anyone here is saying our WR's are elite, so that is totally misconstrued. Greg Jennings... making tough catches???? Dude I watched every packer game this season, and yes he is infinitely better than our WR's, but their QB consistently puts the ball right on the numbers. Not hard to make big receptions when you have your man beat and the QB can put it in the right spot...

I don't know. At least brad7686 is trying to back up his argument with stats. Your whole argument is that JC only looks good because of his amazing receivers? (You know, all of those guys out there making "NUMEROUS leaping, twisting, over the shoulder, slowdown/comeback receptions" every game this season.) Somebody is definitely lacking credibility here, but I don't think its the other guy.

I totally agree that stats can be a little misleading, and I'm not making any kind of case for Campbell as being anything more than an average QB. But the fact remains that he is statistically better than a good chunk of the league. I see Buffalo is looking for a QB this season. Anybody doubt that Campbell would be an upgrade for them? Campbell would be an upgrade for Chicago, Tampa, Carolina, Miami, Cleveland
and a bunch of other teams.

Hmmm, i dont recall indicating that i called our WR's "amazing". But thanks for trying to fight Brads Losing battle. SO let me get this straigt.. your not making a case for campbell... but yet you disagree with my assessment? You people are hilarious. Im NOT disputing the STATS, Im disputing the fact that Campbell is a consistently accurate and or top tier QB. I understand you feel bad because I so thourghly lit up brads posts.. but unfortunately that happens when you make bad posts. oh, and if someone KEPT stats of all the times a WR was open but had an Errant thrown resulting in an incompletion, then I would be more than happy to back up my argument with stats... I thnk the person lacking credability here is not only brad, but yourself. how many times do i have to reiterate the fact that I AM NOT SAYING OUR WR'S ARE ELITE OR GREAT BY ANY MEANS. what i AM saying is that, in MANY instances they had to ADJUST to poorly thrown balls. I was being somewhat Facetious in saying that those "twisting leaping" catches were helping JC's Compleation percentage. But.. when you dont get it.... you dont get it...

Flip flop much? You have never "lit up" anybody's posts by the way. You're obviously caught up in the fact that there was a dispute in this thread and you feel that you won I guess? Except I'm not sure anybody would agree with someone who can't even get their points straight.

Dude are you seriously High? How many times have a CLEARLY conveyed my points. where did i flip flop? i have and will always contend that JC is not a great qb, AND that our WR's are not Elite. When and where have i stated otherwise? Ok.. sorry i said i "lit up" your posts. But I, Along with quite a few other people, disagree with you. I dont want to turn this into some personal argument, so im sorry if Thats how it came across. You have your opinion and i have mine. I was just responding to the Riggo fan for saying my argument is not valid becuase i didnt back it up with stats. Stats that to my knowledge dont exist.

brad7686 wrote:That's kind of what I was trying to say, if his stats are padded its because of the checkdowns and playcalling accounting for a lack of protection, not because we have elite pass catchers. But people will spew any kind of rhetoric to try and prove a point. I'll remember never to use stats again on this site because apparently everyone on here knows better than the stats. Just like apparently the fact that our receivers led the league in drops the season before last doesn't matter.

I read this entire thread and I never got the feeling anyone was saying we have elite receivers. Anyone who watches this team wouldn't call ANYTHING on our offense elite. They were saying our receivers have to make more tough catches versus the easier hit them in stride type of catches. I honestly can't believe you don't agree with that. Our expectations for accuracy in an NFL QB seem to be higher than yours.

Is the rhetoric you speak of essentially "Campbell doesn't have what it takes"? Most people, even the most ardent Campbell supporters, believe he will not become an elite QB. The fact that Shanahan said "I need to see more of him" should be sounding alarms to everyone. That is the furthest thing from a vote of confidence that I've heard yet. ALL of us SHOULD know that he spent the entire previous year watching the league. You don't think he spent any time watching the Skins? Although I wouldn't blame him if he didn't.

Its strange, its like even the media is afraid to say he sucks although they tiptoe around the QB subject. Why do some of the draft pundits have us taking a QB at 4? Why is there so much Claussen and Bradford speculation? Where is the Shanahan wants to handpick his own QB sentiment coming from?

As for the stats thing. Would you scout a player with a spreadsheet or game tape? Hopefully your answer is game tape. We don't like Campbell the QB because we all see his failure with our own eyes. We don't need stats to tell us that.

The bottom line is I personally cannot accept mediocrity and suckage. Especially after 10 years of exactly that. No, QB's don't grow on trees but when you realize the one you have isn't going to be a star in a league driven by star QB's you have to cut him loose. I believe that sooner or later Shanahan will and thats definitely a reason for me to be optimistic.

Sorry to jump in the middle. Having read this thread, my observations:

- Accuracy is, sadly, one of JC's strong suits, aside from keeping his composure under pressure (although he makes bad decisions regardless) and his ability to tuck and run.

- The accuracy stats that brad has cited are probably a little padded for Campbell, because a large portion of his passes were behind the line of scrimmage. Some of those were checkdowns due to poor receiver routes and protection issues, but many of them were also designed in order to cater to Campbell's relative weakness as a QB.

- Several people have cited the idea that our receivers have made Campbell look better than he is, or that they've had to make a lot of tough catches. Well, while they have been called on to make those tough catches, they don't. Our WRs actually make Campbell look a lot worse than he is, IMO.

- Given that our WRs drop many more balls than they should, I think in general people are overestimating Campbell's inaccuracy. It wouldn't be perceived as being as bad of an issue if our wideouts simply did their job.

- One just can't ignore the fact that Campbell achieved a fine statistical year with a horrible offensive line and below average receivers, and no RBs for the second half of the season. His weaknesses remain: he doesn't come away with the clutch victory, he will throw a pick at the worst time, etc. But it's just false to say that our WRs made him look better than he was, or that he has no accuracy. Campbell isn't the most accurate QB, but it's not his worst weakness and it isn't why we've been losing games.

Irn-Bru wrote:Sorry to jump in the middle. Having read this thread, my observations:

- Accuracy is, sadly, one of JC's strong suits, aside from keeping his composure under pressure (although he makes bad decisions regardless) and his ability to tuck and run.

- The accuracy stats that brad has cited are probably a little padded for Campbell, because a large portion of his passes were behind the line of scrimmage. Some of those were checkdowns due to poor receiver routes and protection issues, but many of them were also designed in order to cater to Campbell's relative weakness as a QB.

- Several people have cited the idea that our receivers have made Campbell look better than he is, or that they've had to make a lot of tough catches. Well, while they have been called on to make those tough catches, they don't. Our WRs actually make Campbell look a lot worse than he is, IMO.

- Given that our WRs drop many more balls than they should, I think in general people are overestimating Campbell's inaccuracy. It wouldn't be perceived as being as bad of an issue if our wideouts simply did their job.

- One just can't ignore the fact that Campbell achieved a fine statistical year with a horrible offensive line and below average receivers, and no RBs for the second half of the season. His weaknesses remain: he doesn't come away with the clutch victory, he will throw a pick at the worst time, etc. But it's just false to say that our WRs made him look better than he was, or that he has no accuracy. Campbell isn't the most accurate QB, but it's not his worst weakness and it isn't why we've been losing games.

Actually Irn, they have changed their story to "being facetious" when they praised the WR's, even though they used that to argue with me for a couple pages. And apparently they "aren't flip flopping" in doing so. I would have thought anybody who watches this team would know that Moss can't catch clap, and the rest of them aren't much better aside from the TE's and some of the newer guys on occasion.

Countertrey wrote:Absolutely true... but, more than once or twice a year would be nice. The reason I threw in the comment about Todd Collins... whom, I believe, threw only 2 passes this year, and in each of them hit the receiver in stride... was to make just that point.

Never knew you were into revisionist history, CT.

Collins was 12-23 this year (a worse completion percentage than Campbell, for whatever that's worth).

brad7686 wrote:

Irn-Bru wrote:Sorry to jump in the middle. Having read this thread, my observations:

- Accuracy is, sadly, one of JC's strong suits, aside from keeping his composure under pressure (although he makes bad decisions regardless) and his ability to tuck and run.

- The accuracy stats that brad has cited are probably a little padded for Campbell, because a large portion of his passes were behind the line of scrimmage. Some of those were checkdowns due to poor receiver routes and protection issues, but many of them were also designed in order to cater to Campbell's relative weakness as a QB.

- Several people have cited the idea that our receivers have made Campbell look better than he is, or that they've had to make a lot of tough catches. Well, while they have been called on to make those tough catches, they don't. Our WRs actually make Campbell look a lot worse than he is, IMO.

- Given that our WRs drop many more balls than they should, I think in general people are overestimating Campbell's inaccuracy. It wouldn't be perceived as being as bad of an issue if our wideouts simply did their job.

- One just can't ignore the fact that Campbell achieved a fine statistical year with a horrible offensive line and below average receivers, and no RBs for the second half of the season. His weaknesses remain: he doesn't come away with the clutch victory, he will throw a pick at the worst time, etc. But it's just false to say that our WRs made him look better than he was, or that he has no accuracy. Campbell isn't the most accurate QB, but it's not his worst weakness and it isn't why we've been losing games.

Actually Irn, they have changed their story to "being facetious" when they praised the WR's, even though they used that to argue with me for a couple pages. And apparently they "aren't flip flopping" in doing so. I would have thought anybody who watches this team would know that Moss can't catch clap, and the rest of them aren't much better aside from the TE's and some of the newer guys on occasion.

Sweet! Im gald your finally getting it! I dont know how this got so sidetracked, but Ok.. lets just end this right now. My original "praise" of our WR's was probably not coveyed clearly enough for people that cant read between the lines. at NO point did i EVER say our WR's are elite, great or what have you. I said, that They in fact did HELP jc's completion percentage WHEN they made tough catches. It was a snarky and somewhat sarcastic remark about the fact that JC cant hit a guy in stride or between the numbers and as such a lot of time our WR's have to adjust to a poor throw, but is also factually true. If a guy makes a catch regardless of if he had to lay out or leap to get it... it still goes down as a compleation. As soon as you realize that your argument is not what the majority of people agree with, you try to sidetrack the conversation and say ive flipflopped. Anyone who reads this post in its entirety that has an average IQ or is older than 10 years old can clearly see that.

And i agree with you Irn... our WR's sometimes dont make catches that they should, which does make jc look worse at times... But you have to agree that it goes both ways. I really wasnt trying to say that becuase our WR's made leaping or comeback catches that makes them great players, i was just making a point that JC has missed a lot of throws, and i dont think that is even disputable. I also wasnt saying that is his worst weakness and it isn't why we've been losing games. All im saying is that even if the stats show JC as an Accurate passer, i dont believe that the stats tell the whole story. Easy Money said it best i think "Would you scout a player with a spreadsheet or game tape?". I know what i see, and i see problesm with consistant accuracy. With that.. im officially out of this insane round about of trying to get a few people to live in reality. So.. go ahead and have your last word brad, im sure that will help you sleep tonight.

Irn, you contradict yourself a bit. You start by saying that accuracy is one of JC's strong suits and then later in your post you say the checkdowns, etc. were designed to limit Campbell weaknesses. Check downs have to be the easiest throw in the book of pass types. If he's so accurate, why was the offense designed for these short (doesn't take great accuracy) routes? I could care less if he can throw a good check down.

The whole WR thing confuses me too. Should a slant or deep-in be a tough route for both a QB and WR to execute? I don't think so. No, the receivers don't make all of the tough catches because they're tough catches. Its the QB's job to throw an accurate catchable ball...

I would agree that Campbell's worst weakness isn't accuracy. Campbell's worst weakness is whats between his ears. The man isn't dumb, but he does not process information on the field fast enough. You either have that or you don't. He's not an instinctual player, and thats a huge problem for a QB. You can get away with being a coaches robot in college but the NFL just magnifies the problem if you're not an instinctual player.

He is not the sole reason the Skins suck. We beaten that horse to death several times now. I just want another QB under center. I just can't stand the thought of another year watching him fail.

I always like your posts Irn, I just had to respond to this one.

PulpExposure wrote:

Countertrey wrote:Absolutely true... but, more than once or twice a year would be nice. The reason I threw in the comment about Todd Collins... whom, I believe, threw only 2 passes this year, and in each of them hit the receiver in stride... was to make just that point.

Never knew you were into revisionist history, CT.

Collins was 12-23 this year (a worse completion percentage than Campbell, for whatever that's worth).

Shhhhh, keep it quiet. We don't want any actual stats here. Don't you know that Collins is really Joe Montana in disguise, and that there is a vast conspiracy among the coaches to prevent him from playing? Even at 400 years old, he's the best QB on the team, and playing behind that O-line won't get him hurt because he makes such fast decisions he actually throws the ball before it is snapped, thus the Dline has no chance to hit him.

spenser wrote:

brad7686 wrote:

Irn-Bru wrote:Sorry to jump in the middle. Having read this thread, my observations:

- Accuracy is, sadly, one of JC's strong suits, aside from keeping his composure under pressure (although he makes bad decisions regardless) and his ability to tuck and run.

- The accuracy stats that brad has cited are probably a little padded for Campbell, because a large portion of his passes were behind the line of scrimmage. Some of those were checkdowns due to poor receiver routes and protection issues, but many of them were also designed in order to cater to Campbell's relative weakness as a QB.

- Several people have cited the idea that our receivers have made Campbell look better than he is, or that they've had to make a lot of tough catches. Well, while they have been called on to make those tough catches, they don't. Our WRs actually make Campbell look a lot worse than he is, IMO.

- Given that our WRs drop many more balls than they should, I think in general people are overestimating Campbell's inaccuracy. It wouldn't be perceived as being as bad of an issue if our wideouts simply did their job.

- One just can't ignore the fact that Campbell achieved a fine statistical year with a horrible offensive line and below average receivers, and no RBs for the second half of the season. His weaknesses remain: he doesn't come away with the clutch victory, he will throw a pick at the worst time, etc. But it's just false to say that our WRs made him look better than he was, or that he has no accuracy. Campbell isn't the most accurate QB, but it's not his worst weakness and it isn't why we've been losing games.

Actually Irn, they have changed their story to "being facetious" when they praised the WR's, even though they used that to argue with me for a couple pages. And apparently they "aren't flip flopping" in doing so. I would have thought anybody who watches this team would know that Moss can't catch clap, and the rest of them aren't much better aside from the TE's and some of the newer guys on occasion.

Sweet! Im gald your finally getting it! I dont know how this got so sidetracked, but Ok.. lets just end this right now. My original "praise" of our WR's was probably not coveyed clearly enough for people that cant read between the lines. at NO point did i EVER say our WR's are elite, great or what have you. I said, that They in fact did HELP jc's completion percentage WHEN they made tough catches. It was a snarky and somewhat sarcastic remark about the fact that JC cant hit a guy in stride or between the numbers and as such a lot of time our WR's have to adjust to a poor throw, but is also factually true. If a guy makes a catch regardless of if he had to lay out or leap to get it... it still goes down as a compleation. As soon as you realize that your argument is not what the majority of people agree with, you try to sidetrack the conversation and say ive flipflopped. Anyone who reads this post in its entirety that has an average IQ or is older than 10 years old can clearly see that.

And i agree with you Irn... our WR's sometimes dont make catches that they should, which does make jc look worse at times... But you have to agree that it goes both ways. I really wasnt trying to say that becuase our WR's made leaping or comeback catches that makes them great players, i was just making a point that JC has missed a lot of throws, and i dont think that is even disputable. I also wasnt saying that is his worst weakness and it isn't why we've been losing games. All im saying is that even if the stats show JC as an Accurate passer, i dont believe that the stats tell the whole story. Easy Money said it best i think "Would you scout a player with a spreadsheet or game tape?". I know what i see, and i see problesm with consistant accuracy. With that.. im officially out of this insane round about of trying to get a few people to live in reality. So.. go ahead and have your last word brad, im sure that will help you sleep tonight.

You're the one missing the point. Compared to the other 32 teams in the league, the redskins are one of, if not the worst team in the league when it comes to hands. That means most other qb's in the league will be helped MORE by tough catches. Durr. I agree with Irn, as I said very early in this thread that his stats may be padded by the fact that we had to cater the offense to the O-line and throw a lot of short passes. What I could not agree with is the argument from many people, including you, that our receivers help in any way when they actually detract.

SkinsJock wrote:Campbell might be an upgrade for all of those teams and even the Redskins but he's still not ever going to be much of a QB

I could care less about the stats - fact is, Campbell's just not a good QB

hahah. Now THIS is logic. You just said Campbell would be an upgrade at QB for like eight teams, but he's "still not ever going to be much of a QB". That just makes no sense.

What you're really saying is Jason Campbell is never going to be an elite QB. I think that's a real possibility, and Campbell's stats probably back up that conclusion too.

spenser wrote:

brad7686 wrote:

spenser wrote:

riggofan wrote:

spenser wrote:Buh Bye. Its probably a good thing, because seriously you lose more credibility with each post. I don't think anyone here is saying our WR's are elite, so that is totally misconstrued. Greg Jennings... making tough catches???? Dude I watched every packer game this season, and yes he is infinitely better than our WR's, but their QB consistently puts the ball right on the numbers. Not hard to make big receptions when you have your man beat and the QB can put it in the right spot...

I don't know. At least brad7686 is trying to back up his argument with stats. Your whole argument is that JC only looks good because of his amazing receivers? (You know, all of those guys out there making "NUMEROUS leaping, twisting, over the shoulder, slowdown/comeback receptions" every game this season.) Somebody is definitely lacking credibility here, but I don't think its the other guy.

I totally agree that stats can be a little misleading, and I'm not making any kind of case for Campbell as being anything more than an average QB. But the fact remains that he is statistically better than a good chunk of the league. I see Buffalo is looking for a QB this season. Anybody doubt that Campbell would be an upgrade for them? Campbell would be an upgrade for Chicago, Tampa, Carolina, Miami, Cleveland
and a bunch of other teams.

Hmmm, i dont recall indicating that i called our WR's "amazing". But thanks for trying to fight Brads Losing battle. SO let me get this straigt.. your not making a case for campbell... but yet you disagree with my assessment? You people are hilarious. Im NOT disputing the STATS, Im disputing the fact that Campbell is a consistently accurate and or top tier QB. I understand you feel bad because I so thourghly lit up brads posts.. but unfortunately that happens when you make bad posts. oh, and if someone KEPT stats of all the times a WR was open but had an Errant thrown resulting in an incompletion, then I would be more than happy to back up my argument with stats... I thnk the person lacking credability here is not only brad, but yourself. how many times do i have to reiterate the fact that I AM NOT SAYING OUR WR'S ARE ELITE OR GREAT BY ANY MEANS. what i AM saying is that, in MANY instances they had to ADJUST to poorly thrown balls. I was being somewhat Facetious in saying that those "twisting leaping" catches were helping JC's Compleation percentage. But.. when you dont get it.... you dont get it...

Flip flop much? You have never "lit up" anybody's posts by the way. You're obviously caught up in the fact that there was a dispute in this thread and you feel that you won I guess? Except I'm not sure anybody would agree with someone who can't even get their points straight.

Dude are you seriously High? How many times have a CLEARLY conveyed my points. where did i flip flop? i have and will always contend that JC is not a great qb, AND that our WR's are not Elite. When and where have i stated otherwise? Ok.. sorry i said i "lit up" your posts. But I, Along with quite a few other people, disagree with you. I dont want to turn this into some personal argument, so im sorry if Thats how it came across. You have your opinion and i have mine. I was just responding to the Riggo fan for saying my argument is not valid becuase i didnt back it up with stats. Stats that to my knowledge dont exist.

There is no "great" quarterback in the NFL who doesn't have excellent protection and receivers. So, what do such words as "great" actually mean? Would Manning, Favre, and Brees be "great" if they played for the Skins. My honest feeling is "No, they would not be able to throw long, hit people in stride, or be consistently on target without open receivers and clear passing lanes, a factor in ball placement too little appreciated. Our whole perception of a QB as someone separate from his support can not be and never will be accurate. The truth is any and all assesments of Campbell's true skill are guesses only. We simply do not know how effective he can be under conditions operative for upper tier quarterbacks. What we do know is the following: he is frequently sacked and/or hurried through no fault of his own, his receivers drop a lot of ball and have difficulty getting open, his passing lanes are only infrequently completely open, Rabach has become very inconsistent in regard to delivering the football, and his offensive line is the joke of the league both in the running and passing game. What's more, it is fair to say that of his offensive mates, only he and ey, and maybe Fred Davis, could expect to play on the first team of any other team in the Skin's division.
The above being true, I assert that most negative evaluations he has undergone on this board are, at best, premature, and, at worse, are the product of failing to understand how the game of football is played. I also assert that is entirely possible he would be one of the better quarterbacks
in the league, statistically and otherwise, if he played for the Vikings. I say "possible." I don't know for sure. Neither do you.

EasyMoney wrote:Irn, you contradict yourself a bit. You start by saying that accuracy is one of JC's strong suits and then later in your post you say the checkdowns, etc. were designed to limit Campbell weaknesses. Check downs have to be the easiest throw in the book of pass types. If he's so accurate, why was the offense designed for these short (doesn't take great accuracy) routes? I could care less if he can throw a good check down.

When I say that accuracy is one of Campbell's strong suits, what I mean is that if you ask me "what does he do well?" that will be one of the traits I mention. But relative to other quarterbacks in the league he may not seem as accurate. Still, I'd place him in the top half of the league, as far as accuracy is concerned. He's nowhere near Brees or other elite QBs, but he's better than something like 10-15 other QBs. (We have to keep in mind that some QBs in this league really and truly stink.)

As for the short passes by design, I think there are several reasons for this:
(1) They are high-percentage plays, and since we didn't have much of a running game the short pass game became our bread and butter, as far as rhythmic offense was concerned.
(2) Our o-line couldn't handle a pass rush. Calling short pass routes increased the chance that JC would survive long enough to throw the ball
(3) Many of those short passes were checkdowns
(4) I think the coordinators called shorter passing plays because Campbell doesn't have great field vision and can't be trusted to buy time, make a good decision, and make plays.

So if Campbell can set up, see a receiver, and throw to him, I do think he's not bad on accuracy. It's one of his (relative) strong suits. But there are many reasons why he ended up throwing short passes, which makes him seem more accurate in the stats than he is in reality.

I would agree that Campbell's worst weakness isn't accuracy. Campbell's worst weakness is whats between his ears. The man isn't dumb, but he does not process information on the field fast enough. You either have that or you don't. He's not an instinctual player, and thats a huge problem for a QB. You can get away with being a coaches robot in college but the NFL just magnifies the problem if you're not an instinctual player.

I agree with all of that. There is an "it" factor, and Campbell does not have it. I think we've definitely seen enough to know that by now.

He is not the sole reason the Skins suck. We beaten that horse to death several times now. I just want another QB under center. I just can't stand the thought of another year watching him fail.

I can appreciate that. If it weren't for what I perceive to be very pressing needs in other areas, I'd probably be in the 'replace JC' camp. I think there are still signs that Shanny and Allen are not going to retain Campbell (e.g., the quote that started this thread). But if I have to pick a side, I think that brad has balanced pretty well against many of the Campbell haters on the board. He's really not as bad as his reputation, even if he isn't the QB of the future. I wouldn't mind seeing him under center for one more year.

brad7686 wrote:

Countertrey wrote:

brad7686 wrote:

Technically, he is accurate. That's one of the positives along with occasional mobility and arm strength. Leadership/ awareness/ intangibles I agree are things we have not seen yet.

Technically?

Let's add reality to the equation. Exactly how many times, over the last three season, have we seen Campbell hit a running receiver in stride?

Hello? I think it averages 1 a year.

How many times have we seen wide open receivers have to stop, come back for the ball... be led out of bounds... How many times have we seen sure touchdowns turn into 10-15 yard gains because the receiver had to adjust to a poor throw?

Yeah, the stats say he's accurate... but that's just not the whole story. The fans who have watched every game know the truth... he's close, but not close enough. He can't lead a receiver. He just can't.


On the other hand, Todd Collins got in for 2 pass plays this past season... and on both, hit running receivers in stride... one of which resulted in a long touchdown.


Hmmmmmmmm....... that's just messed up.

Well, if he is inaccurate then there are 22 other starting qb's in the league that are less accurate, as he was 10th in completion percentage. He was also 3rd in the nation in completion percentage the year he was drafted. People who dislike Campbell seem to think every pass in the NFL by other qb's are completed. The stats don't agree with that unless you're talking about Brees or Manning. Is Sam Bradford Drew Brees? No.

Granted, you could say he had more short patterns than a lot of qb's because of the line, but if he had more time he would have more yards, and more production, and it would be harder to complain about that.

He couldn't even hit the field on the last hail mary pass of the year.

I think I will remember him for that forever. Just like Gus Ferrotte head butting the wall

Campbell has very obvious fundamental problems. While I do think he could be serviceable if we had the hogs line(just like Rypien was), we don't have that line. Campbell has a very slow delivery, he plays scared, and worst of all, he doesn't feel pressure. In one of the last games, there was a play where Campbell was looking in the direction the blitzer was coming from and NEVER saw him. He of course fumbled the ball when he got sacked. Would Drew Brees or Peyton Manning be great QBs on this team? Hell yeah they would be. Obviously not as good as they are now, but we would have won our division last year with either one of them...

Scottskins wrote:Campbell has very obvious fundamental problems. While I do think he could be serviceable if we had the hogs line(just like Rypien was), we don't have that line. Campbell has a very slow delivery, he plays scared, and worst of all, he doesn't feel pressure. In one of the last games, there was a play where Campbell was looking in the direction the blitzer was coming from and NEVER saw him. He of course fumbled the ball when he got sacked. Would Drew Brees or Peyton Manning be great QBs on this team? Hell yeah they would be. Obviously not as good as they are now, but we would have won our division last year with either one of them...

I strongly disagree - given the line and the play calling, no QB makes that group into the NFC East champs - this is the problem with a lot of fans - they seem to forget that this is a team game and when things do not go well they want to point to the guy in charge of the offense as the 'fall guy'

A great QB makes better and quicker decisions but all the other pieces need to be in place to ensure a good season and a consistently successful offense

brad7686 wrote:

spenser wrote:

brad7686 wrote:

Irn-Bru wrote:Sorry to jump in the middle. Having read this thread, my observations:

- Accuracy is, sadly, one of JC's strong suits, aside from keeping his composure under pressure (although he makes bad decisions regardless) and his ability to tuck and run.

- The accuracy stats that brad has cited are probably a little padded for Campbell, because a large portion of his passes were behind the line of scrimmage. Some of those were checkdowns due to poor receiver routes and protection issues, but many of them were also designed in order to cater to Campbell's relative weakness as a QB.

- Several people have cited the idea that our receivers have made Campbell look better than he is, or that they've had to make a lot of tough catches. Well, while they have been called on to make those tough catches, they don't. Our WRs actually make Campbell look a lot worse than he is, IMO.

- Given that our WRs drop many more balls than they should, I think in general people are overestimating Campbell's inaccuracy. It wouldn't be perceived as being as bad of an issue if our wideouts simply did their job.

- One just can't ignore the fact that Campbell achieved a fine statistical year with a horrible offensive line and below average receivers, and no RBs for the second half of the season. His weaknesses remain: he doesn't come away with the clutch victory, he will throw a pick at the worst time, etc. But it's just false to say that our WRs made him look better than he was, or that he has no accuracy. Campbell isn't the most accurate QB, but it's not his worst weakness and it isn't why we've been losing games.

Actually Irn, they have changed their story to "being facetious" when they praised the WR's, even though they used that to argue with me for a couple pages. And apparently they "aren't flip flopping" in doing so. I would have thought anybody who watches this team would know that Moss can't catch clap, and the rest of them aren't much better aside from the TE's and some of the newer guys on occasion.

Sweet! Im gald your finally getting it! I dont know how this got so sidetracked, but Ok.. lets just end this right now. My original "praise" of our WR's was probably not coveyed clearly enough for people that cant read between the lines. at NO point did i EVER say our WR's are elite, great or what have you. I said, that They in fact did HELP jc's completion percentage WHEN they made tough catches. It was a snarky and somewhat sarcastic remark about the fact that JC cant hit a guy in stride or between the numbers and as such a lot of time our WR's have to adjust to a poor throw, but is also factually true. If a guy makes a catch regardless of if he had to lay out or leap to get it... it still goes down as a compleation. As soon as you realize that your argument is not what the majority of people agree with, you try to sidetrack the conversation and say ive flipflopped. Anyone who reads this post in its entirety that has an average IQ or is older than 10 years old can clearly see that.

And i agree with you Irn... our WR's sometimes dont make catches that they should, which does make jc look worse at times... But you have to agree that it goes both ways. I really wasnt trying to say that becuase our WR's made leaping or comeback catches that makes them great players, i was just making a point that JC has missed a lot of throws, and i dont think that is even disputable. I also wasnt saying that is his worst weakness and it isn't why we've been losing games. All im saying is that even if the stats show JC as an Accurate passer, i dont believe that the stats tell the whole story. Easy Money said it best i think "Would you scout a player with a spreadsheet or game tape?". I know what i see, and i see problesm with consistant accuracy. With that.. im officially out of this insane round about of trying to get a few people to live in reality. So.. go ahead and have your last word brad, im sure that will help you sleep tonight.

You're the one missing the point. Compared to the other 32 teams in the league, the redskins are one of, if not the worst team in the league when it comes to hands. That means most other qb's in the league will be helped MORE by tough catches. Durr. I agree with Irn, as I said very early in this thread that his stats may be padded by the fact that we had to cater the offense to the O-line and throw a lot of short passes. What I could not agree with is the argument from many people, including you, that our receivers help in any way when they actually detract.

Ok B-Rad... from De La War... whatever helps you sleep at night. When you dont get it, you truly just dont get it.

Irn-Bru wrote:When I say that accuracy is one of Campbell's strong suits, what I mean is that if you ask me "what does he do well?" that will be one of the traits I mention. But relative to other quarterbacks in the league he may not seem as accurate. Still, I'd place him in the top half of the league, as far as accuracy is concerned.

Accuracy a "strong" suit? What are his "weak" suits? We watch different games, particularly vis-a-vis other QBs.

Unfortunately, I stand by my original post.

And I am NOT advocating to get rid of him at all costs, particularly in light of HIGHER priorities ... (OL,OL, OL, ... OL)

He is not a long term solution. Just a serviceable player, perhaps a good backup.

spenser wrote:

brad7686 wrote:

spenser wrote:

brad7686 wrote:

Irn-Bru wrote:Sorry to jump in the middle. Having read this thread, my observations:

- Accuracy is, sadly, one of JC's strong suits, aside from keeping his composure under pressure (although he makes bad decisions regardless) and his ability to tuck and run.

- The accuracy stats that brad has cited are probably a little padded for Campbell, because a large portion of his passes were behind the line of scrimmage. Some of those were checkdowns due to poor receiver routes and protection issues, but many of them were also designed in order to cater to Campbell's relative weakness as a QB.

- Several people have cited the idea that our receivers have made Campbell look better than he is, or that they've had to make a lot of tough catches. Well, while they have been called on to make those tough catches, they don't. Our WRs actually make Campbell look a lot worse than he is, IMO.

- Given that our WRs drop many more balls than they should, I think in general people are overestimating Campbell's inaccuracy. It wouldn't be perceived as being as bad of an issue if our wideouts simply did their job.

- One just can't ignore the fact that Campbell achieved a fine statistical year with a horrible offensive line and below average receivers, and no RBs for the second half of the season. His weaknesses remain: he doesn't come away with the clutch victory, he will throw a pick at the worst time, etc. But it's just false to say that our WRs made him look better than he was, or that he has no accuracy. Campbell isn't the most accurate QB, but it's not his worst weakness and it isn't why we've been losing games.

Actually Irn, they have changed their story to "being facetious" when they praised the WR's, even though they used that to argue with me for a couple pages. And apparently they "aren't flip flopping" in doing so. I would have thought anybody who watches this team would know that Moss can't catch clap, and the rest of them aren't much better aside from the TE's and some of the newer guys on occasion.

Sweet! Im gald your finally getting it! I dont know how this got so sidetracked, but Ok.. lets just end this right now. My original "praise" of our WR's was probably not coveyed clearly enough for people that cant read between the lines. at NO point did i EVER say our WR's are elite, great or what have you. I said, that They in fact did HELP jc's completion percentage WHEN they made tough catches. It was a snarky and somewhat sarcastic remark about the fact that JC cant hit a guy in stride or between the numbers and as such a lot of time our WR's have to adjust to a poor throw, but is also factually true. If a guy makes a catch regardless of if he had to lay out or leap to get it... it still goes down as a compleation. As soon as you realize that your argument is not what the majority of people agree with, you try to sidetrack the conversation and say ive flipflopped. Anyone who reads this post in its entirety that has an average IQ or is older than 10 years old can clearly see that.

And i agree with you Irn... our WR's sometimes dont make catches that they should, which does make jc look worse at times... But you have to agree that it goes both ways. I really wasnt trying to say that becuase our WR's made leaping or comeback catches that makes them great players, i was just making a point that JC has missed a lot of throws, and i dont think that is even disputable. I also wasnt saying that is his worst weakness and it isn't why we've been losing games. All im saying is that even if the stats show JC as an Accurate passer, i dont believe that the stats tell the whole story. Easy Money said it best i think "Would you scout a player with a spreadsheet or game tape?". I know what i see, and i see problesm with consistant accuracy. With that.. im officially out of this insane round about of trying to get a few people to live in reality. So.. go ahead and have your last word brad, im sure that will help you sleep tonight.

You're the one missing the point. Compared to the other 32 teams in the league, the redskins are one of, if not the worst team in the league when it comes to hands. That means most other qb's in the league will be helped MORE by tough catches. Durr. I agree with Irn, as I said very early in this thread that his stats may be padded by the fact that we had to cater the offense to the O-line and throw a lot of short passes. What I could not agree with is the argument from many people, including you, that our receivers help in any way when they actually detract.

Ok B-Rad... from De La War... whatever helps you sleep at night. When you dont get it, you truly just dont get it.

Yea, well just so you know thinking our receivers have good hands is a much more ridiculous stance than mine. At least mine is backed up with stats if nobody believes them. The only stats involved with your argument go completely against your stance, as they led the league in drops the season before last. And anybody who watches the games knows they can't catch anything.