The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

chiefhog44 wrote:A long range vision of this team (as long as things go well in the short term), would be Mike Shannahan stepping down as coach in 4-5 years, and Kyle Shannahan taking over. Mike would stay on a VP of football ops with Allen as GM. Kyle would then take over the reigns as a fairly young head coach, and we ride on like that for another 10 years. That's what I'm seeing here. Shanny is grooming his son to be the next football coach of the Washington Redskins. No way he goes anywhere else...the money will not match what Snyder will pay for him to stay, and his dad is his boss.

With that said, and with a cakewake schedule, we're 8-8 or 9-7 next year. We have the D to keep us in games, and the 8 or so games we lost by 6 points or less just needed better coaching to get over the hump.

Cakewalk schedule? The schedule looks pretty tough to me.

I'm not on any Soapbox..all I'm saying is that ...Snyder made a very sound and obvious business Decision in bringing in Shanny and allen.




Time will Tell if this Truly is Change or just another Flashy Hire.


I cannot prove the numbers but I'm sure I'm in the to the numbers


Vet --YOU YOURSELF said there were close 50-60K in attentance...that's a 30-40 percent drop from seating capacity which Gibbs Held to MAX LEVELS

So my numbers suggestions he lost at least 11 percent in concessions is very realistic..

But ur right I can't prove it

Bob 0119 wrote:I really don't think Snyder has been AS involved as he was back in '99-'00 as far as player decisions are concerned. I still believe that Gibbs helped get him to take a more back-seat approach and we've seen evidence of that reported in the media.

When he brought up Vick (at the beginning of the pre-season) is a classic example where it was reported that he (Snyder) brought it up, and his staff (Cerrato and Zorn) shot it down.

News flash, he is always going to be involved at some level, no matter who the coach is. That's just smart business. You get what you INSpect not what you EXpect.

Snyder's best attribute was both hailed by Gibbs and mentioned by Shanahan yesterday. If Allen and Shanahan say they want someone, Dan Snyder will not tell them "no" he will break his back to get them. It didn't always pan out for us during Gibbs 2.0 (Archuletta and Lloyd) but it's that kind of support that GM's and Coaches crave.

My point is, and has been, that Snyder's "meddlesome" behavior is widely exaggerated based off of moves he made nearly 10 years ago. It's media and fans that continue to perpetuate his meddling nature as they feel more comfortable blaming him for failures than coaches and players whom they tend to like more.

Bob i try not to live in the past...I have given DS more benifit of the doubts then he deserves...but if this year showed me anything it was that he was more involved then I thought...this year proved what we all thought.

DEHog wrote:

Bob 0119 wrote:I really don't think Snyder has been AS involved as he was back in '99-'00 as far as player decisions are concerned. I still believe that Gibbs helped get him to take a more back-seat approach and we've seen evidence of that reported in the media.

When he brought up Vick (at the beginning of the pre-season) is a classic example where it was reported that he (Snyder) brought it up, and his staff (Cerrato and Zorn) shot it down.

News flash, he is always going to be involved at some level, no matter who the coach is. That's just smart business. You get what you INSpect not what you EXpect.

Snyder's best attribute was both hailed by Gibbs and mentioned by Shanahan yesterday. If Allen and Shanahan say they want someone, Dan Snyder will not tell them "no" he will break his back to get them. It didn't always pan out for us during Gibbs 2.0 (Archuletta and Lloyd) but it's that kind of support that GM's and Coaches crave.

My point is, and has been, that Snyder's "meddlesome" behavior is widely exaggerated based off of moves he made nearly 10 years ago. It's media and fans that continue to perpetuate his meddling nature as they feel more comfortable blaming him for failures than coaches and players whom they tend to like more.

Bob i try not to live in the past...I have given DS more benifit of the doubts then he deserves...but if this year showed me anything it was that he was more involved then I thought...this year proved what we all thought.

The only thing it proved to me was:

a) People were right that Jim Zorn was not qualified as a head coach

b) While Vinny Cerrato could draft decent players (occasionally), he was no good at putting together a full team.

I'm not saying that Snyder has no blame in how the season went. Many point out rightly that Cerrato and Zorn were people he chose. If the team fails, he fails.

I'm not saying he wasn't involved, but in the article posted referring to the "rise and fall" of Jim Zorn, you'll notice that as Zorn began to fail, Snyder had less and less to do with him.

Snyder didn't "assume command." He didn't show up on the sidelines with a clipboard. He didn't try to strap on pads. He didn't start dealing away all of our remaining draft picks to bring in some high priced player to fix things midseason.

He did what an owner was supposed to do; he put the pressure on Cerrato to get results, and let gravity carry the fecal matter on it's natural course. When Cerrato failed, he asked for his resignation.

People always ask me why he gets a pass, and for me he's not totally clean in this, but why should everyone else get a pass...but him. Where's the responsibility on the players? Where the responsibility on the coaches? Sure, Vinny got some flack, but it was only because of his direct proximity to Snyder.

Bob 0119 wrote:

DEHog wrote:

Bob 0119 wrote:I really don't think Snyder has been AS involved as he was back in '99-'00 as far as player decisions are concerned. I still believe that Gibbs helped get him to take a more back-seat approach and we've seen evidence of that reported in the media.

When he brought up Vick (at the beginning of the pre-season) is a classic example where it was reported that he (Snyder) brought it up, and his staff (Cerrato and Zorn) shot it down.

News flash, he is always going to be involved at some level, no matter who the coach is. That's just smart business. You get what you INSpect not what you EXpect.

Snyder's best attribute was both hailed by Gibbs and mentioned by Shanahan yesterday. If Allen and Shanahan say they want someone, Dan Snyder will not tell them "no" he will break his back to get them. It didn't always pan out for us during Gibbs 2.0 (Archuletta and Lloyd) but it's that kind of support that GM's and Coaches crave.

My point is, and has been, that Snyder's "meddlesome" behavior is widely exaggerated based off of moves he made nearly 10 years ago. It's media and fans that continue to perpetuate his meddling nature as they feel more comfortable blaming him for failures than coaches and players whom they tend to like more.

Bob i try not to live in the past...I have given DS more benifit of the doubts then he deserves...but if this year showed me anything it was that he was more involved then I thought...this year proved what we all thought.

The only thing it proved to me was:

a) People were right that Jim Zorn was not qualified as a head coach

What do attribute his 6-2 start to??

b) While Vinny Cerrato could draft decent players (occasionally), he was no good at putting together a full team.

I don't buy for one second Vinny made a decision while he was here.

I'm not saying that Snyder has no blame in how the season went. Many point out rightly that Cerrato and Zorn were people he chose. If the team fails, he fails.

I'd be willing to put more blame on Zorn had DS not undercut him at every opportunity

I'm not saying he wasn't involved, but in the article posted referring to the "rise and fall" of Jim Zorn, you'll notice that as Zorn began to fail, Snyder had less and less to do with him.

Of course because he knew he was gone and Allen advised him to...I like that Snyder listened to Allen!!

Snyder didn't "assume command." He didn't show up on the sidelines with a clipboard. He didn't try to strap on pads. He didn't start dealing away all of our remaining draft picks to bring in some high priced player to fix things midseason.

Well it was his doing that we were there and remember he wanted Zorn to resign and Zorn didn't DS knew it would be a PR nightmare if he fired Zorn...So IMO he went on and started plotting what we saw Tuesday.

He did what an owner was supposed to do; he put the pressure on Cerrato to get results, and let gravity carry the fecal matter on it's natural course. When Cerrato failed, he asked for his resignation.

Scapegoat.

People always ask me why he gets a pass, and for me he's not totally clean in this, but why should everyone else get a pass...but him. Where's the responsibility on the players? Where the responsibility on the coaches? Sure, Vinny got some flack, but it was only because of his direct proximity to Snyder

All good points...and the reason Snyder must step away from football operations...because people like me will always ask..How does DS honestly evaluate his coaches and players when he's so involved and in some cases they are only carrying out his orders?

I think fan reaction has been pretty good so far towards Shanahan. People are relieved he is here, but most have this realistic "wait and see" attitude. Everybody wants to see if this is real change or just another Snyder dog and pony show.

One thing I would like though is for fans to settle down about what moves Shanahan needs to make in the offseason. Who he should draft, who he should cut, who he should sign, etc; We need to let Shanahan implement his plan, even if it takes three years, and get back to what we do best which is support the hell out of this team.

I believe that this is the real deal. I'm excited. That doesn't mean I'm expecting playoffs next year, I just feel that we're on our way to being a legit franchise. Even more legit than when Gibbs was here...

Chris Luva Luva wrote:I believe that this is the real deal. I'm excited. That doesn't mean I'm expecting playoffs next year, I just feel that we're on our way to being a legit franchise. Even more legit than when Gibbs was here...

Chris you're drinking the Kool Aid

DE Hog wrote:

Bob 0119 wrote:The only thing it proved to me was:

a) People were right that Jim Zorn was not qualified as a head coach

What do attribute his 6-2 start to??

He was a new coach with no previous film to study. Teams couldn't prepare for what he was going to bring.

Playcalling is about deception. If the team is showing run, they are probably going to pass and vice versa. Once teams learned that if it looked like he was going to run, he was going to run, then it becomes easy to shut him down.

I sumbit his loss to the 0-5 St. Louis Rams during that 6-2 start. That really was the beginning of the end for him. The league figured him out. It wasn't until Lewis took over play-calling that we began to see the "play-action bootleg".

DE Hog wrote:

b) While Vinny Cerrato could draft decent players (occasionally), he was no good at putting together a full team.

I don't buy for one second Vinny made a decision while he was here.

See, that's just naive. So Orakpo, MacIntosh, Horton etc., these are all Dan Snyder picks? We know they weren't Zorn picks. Do you mean that with all of the "inside stories" through nameless sources, you think the source stopped short of laying down that Snyder is secretly playing every position in the front office and coach positions?

DE Hog wrote:

I'm not saying that Snyder has no blame in how the season went. Many point out rightly that Cerrato and Zorn were people he chose. If the team fails, he fails.

I'd be willing to put more blame on Zorn had DS not undercut him at every opportunity

You mean stripping the play-calling duties away from him? Did you watch the games? I'm not an NFL Defensive player, and from my couch I could tell you what we were going to run. Now on the field are 11 highly paid professionals (linebackers, DB's, linemen) who have studied game film. What do you think the chances were that they would be "confused" by Jim Zorn's offense?

DE Hog wrote:

I'm not saying he wasn't involved, but in the article posted referring to the "rise and fall" of Jim Zorn, you'll notice that as Zorn began to fail, Snyder had less and less to do with him.

Of course because he knew he was gone and Allen advised him to...I like that Snyder listened to Allen!!

Well, if the guy you are paying to do the job, isn't getting the job done should you just let him keep doing it and hope that eventually he "gets" it? My point was that Snyder totally pulled away from Zorn. If his "meddling" was the problem, than the absence of such should have been the solution, right?

He didn't sabotage Zorn, that would be cutting his nose off to spite his face.

DE Hog wrote:

Snyder didn't "assume command." He didn't show up on the sidelines with a clipboard. He didn't try to strap on pads. He didn't start dealing away all of our remaining draft picks to bring in some high priced player to fix things midseason.

Well it was his doing that we were there and remember he wanted Zorn to resign and Zorn didn't DS knew it would be a PR nightmare if he fired Zorn...So IMO he went on and started plotting what we saw Tuesday.

What does Snyder do that isn't a "PR nightmare?" Do we really need to bring up the sign-ban again? Firing Zorn midseason would not have made things any better. If you have to pay him anyway, he might as well stay.

No (reasonable) coach would take over a team mid-season. Shanahan had said that he wouldn't, but Shanahan and Allen wouldn't have been necessary if Zorn and Cerrato were getting it done.

I'm not saying he has NO blame. You're 100% correct, he hired them both.

DE Hog wrote:

He did what an owner was supposed to do; he put the pressure on Cerrato to get results, and let gravity carry the fecal matter on it's natural course. When Cerrato failed, he asked for his resignation.

Scapegoat.

Really? You think Vinny got a raw deal? Think some other team will pick him up and he'll lead them to the Super Bowl?

DE Hog wrote:

People always ask me why he gets a pass, and for me he's not totally clean in this, but why should everyone else get a pass...but him. Where's the responsibility on the players? Where the responsibility on the coaches? Sure, Vinny got some flack, but it was only because of his direct proximity to Snyder

All good points...and the reason Snyder must step away from football operations...because people like me will always ask..How does DS honestly evaluate his coaches and players when he's so involved and in some cases they are only carrying out his orders?

[/quote]

Snyder could seal himself up in a time-capsule and people will still blame him for every failing no matter how big or small. When the helmet headsets failed this year, people said Snyder was "too cheap" to have them fixed.

Cerrato took a back seat to Gibbs. Zorn took a back seat to Cerrato. None of them are here anymore. Gibbs has never had a negative thing to say about Snyder, and I will take his opinion over all comers.

We don't just hear it from Gibbs himself, we hear it from other people (Shanahan is a great example) who talk to him. The man has no plans to return to football, and has no reason to stay so buddy-buddy with a man most consider the root-of-all-that-is-evil.

realistic expectation for me would be a 7-9 or 8-8 year. Competitive, well coached, and in every game I think is reasonable. It's the NFL, quick turnarounds happen. The Dolphins go from 1-15 to 10-6. It's unrealistic for me to think the Skins can win 10-12, but I think 7 or 8 with an improving team as the year goes on is very reasonable.

I really don't see any place for a realistic expectations thread around here. Why the hell should I put my feet back on the ground?!

My god - we've got a GM and real head coach again! If they get left to do their jobs, we've got a chance of being a relevant team in the NFC East again.

He was a new coach with no previous film to study. Teams couldn't prepare for what he was going to bring.

I have never brought into to that...why hasn't anyone figured out Payton Manning??

See, that's just naive. So Orakpo, MacIntosh, Horton etc., these are all Dan Snyder picks? We know they weren't Zorn picks. Do you mean that with all of the "inside stories" through nameless sources, you think the source stopped short of laying down that Snyder is secretly playing every position in the front office and coach positions?

Yep...I think he was the final say and funneled decisions through Vinny

You mean stripping the play-calling duties away from him? Did you watch the games? I'm not an NFL Defensive player, and from my couch I could tell you what we were going to run. Now on the field are 11 highly paid professionals (linebackers, DB's, linemen) who have studied game film. What do you think the chances were that they would be "confused" by Jim Zorn's offense?

It had nothing to do with a lack of running game or QB play right??

Well, if the guy you are paying to do the job, isn't getting the job done should you just let him keep doing it and hope that eventually he "gets" it? My point was that Snyder totally pulled away from Zorn. If his "meddling" was the problem, than the absence of such should have been the solution, right?

Season was long gone...damage was done... fan were livid...he had to step back...I applaude him for doing so...I'm not one who will ALWAYS blame DS.

What does Snyder do that isn't a "PR nightmare?" Do we really need to bring up the sign-ban again? Firing Zorn midseason would not have made things any better. If you have to pay him anyway, he might as well stay.
No (reasonable) coach would take over a team mid-season. Shanahan had said that he wouldn't, but Shanahan and Allen wouldn't have been necessary if Zorn and Cerrato were getting it done.
I'm not saying he has NO blame. You're 100% correct, he hired them both.

Well that all on DS

Really? You think Vinny got a raw deal? Think some other team will pick him up and he'll lead them to the Super Bowl?

I think Vinny did everything that was ask of him to do!!

People always sk me why he gets a pass, and for me he's not
Snyder could seal himself up in a time-capsule and people will still blame him for every failing no matter how big or small. When the helmet headsets failed this year, people said Snyder was "too cheap" to have them fixed.

Cerrato took a back seat to Gibbs. Zorn took a back seat to Cerrato. None of them are here anymore. Gibbs has never had a negative thing to say about Snyder, and I will take his opinion over all comers.

We don't just hear it from Gibbs himself, we hear it from other people (Shanahan is a great example) who talk to him. The man has no plans to return to football, and has no reason to stay so buddy-buddy with a man most consider the root-of-all-that-is-evil

And again I would argue DS is to blame for that...from what I can tell more than not people are praising him for the latest moves. As for Gibbs what else is he going to say??? He would never say a bad word and he is the one guy that DS did bow down to.....most of the time...have you ever wondered why a three time SB winning (offensive) coach would bring in a guy like Al Saunders???


I give you credit Bob you are one of the DS supporters who has been around all year and you always have well thought out post!! I enjoy discussions with you

Expectations for 2010: stop being the laughing-stock of the NFL.

El Mexican wrote:Expectations for 2010: stop being the laughing-stock of the NFL.

I'd like to think the Raiders have cornered the market on the term "laughing stock" in the NFL

I expect at least a wild card spot.

KelvinBryant24 wrote:I'd like to think the Raiders have cornered the market on the term "laughing stock" in the NFL

There's more than enough room on that mantle and we are/were right there with them.

Please, the 80's are long gone and there is zero prestige left with the franchise. Nobody cares but the fans, this franchise is a joke.

We are the equivalent of the Raiders to non Redskin fans.

Bob 0119 wrote:My point is, and has been, that Snyder's "meddlesome" behavior is widely exaggerated based off of moves he made nearly 10 years ago. It's media and fans that continue to perpetuate his meddling nature as they feel more comfortable blaming him for failures than coaches and players whom they tend to like more.

sorry - that is just not correct - Snyder's "meddlesome" behaviour" is not exaggerated - that might be your opinion but it is misguided - and the fact is that Snyder's "meddlesome" behaviour has been going on for 10 years - it did not stop as you imply

I agree that the media exaggerate things about Snyder but the sad fact is that Snyder keeps giving them reason to - he brought back Gibbs but did not see that Gibbs was not the HC he once was - we would have been better off, in my opinion, if Snyder had let Gibbs be the President and let him run the franchise for a short term

we may see him not as involved but I for one am not giving him the benefit of the doubt because he has been such a factor in where we are as a franchise right now - Snyder is a slime bucket and he has earned the disrespect he receives


I am encouraged, I'm just going to wait and see here

Bob 0119 wrote:He did what an owner was supposed to do; he put the pressure on Cerrato to get results, and let gravity carry the fecal matter on it's natural course. When Cerrato failed, he asked for his resignation.

DEHog wrote:Scapegoat.

Bob 0119 wrote:Really? You think Vinny got a raw deal? Think some other team will pick him up and he'll lead them to the Super Bowl?

so on one hand it's not Snyder's fault but then you indicate how bad Cerrato is that he most likely will not get a job elsewhere but he was OK to be here for close to 10 years, C'mon Bob

Cerrato was just another huge Snyder mistake

Bob 0119 wrote:My point is, and has been, that Snyder's "meddlesome" behavior is widely exaggerated based off of moves he made nearly 10 years ago. It's media and fans that continue to perpetuate his meddling nature as they feel more comfortable blaming him for failures than coaches and players whom they tend to like more.

The public record throughout his entire ownership indicates otherwise.

You obviously have not talked privately to some members or former members of the organization. You would be sick to your stomach if you had. You do not have to believe this. You can and probably will keep the same attitude and opinion notwithstanding the multiple pieces of evidence. So, I will debate this no more in this thread.

I will only ask that if you ever ask somebody inside or previously inside with a condition of anonimity you reciprocate their trust.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

KelvinBryant24 wrote:I'd like to think the Raiders have cornered the market on the term "laughing stock" in the NFL

There's more than enough room on that mantle and we are/were right there with them.
Please, the 80's are long gone and there is zero prestige left with the franchise. Nobody cares but the fans, this franchise is a joke.
We are the equivalent of the Raiders to non Redskin fans.

sad but true - when people ask what team I am a fan of and I tell them they think I'm crazy, and everyone says we used to be a great franchise but we have no chance because of this owner

we are hopefully seeing a change here but this owner is not to be trusted and no matter what happens with Shanahan's tenure, Snyder will still be one of the worst owners in the NFL - he should have removed himself from managing this franchise a long time ago, nothing will give us back those years of bad management

SkinsJock wrote:we are hopefully seeing a change here but this owner is not to be trusted and no matter what happens with Shanahan's tenure, Snyder will still be one of the worst owners in the NFL - he should have removed himself from managing this franchise a long time ago, nothing will give us back those years of bad management

Give me 5 million a year and I will say the following:

"Daniel Snyder is one of the most passionate owners in the NFL. He really wants to win. He will support me to put the team in the best position to win."

You can add my name to people like Joe Gibbs, Mike Shanahan, etc. who have said so after signing very lucrative contracts. This is the best they could find to say. That's as much as he gets from me too for 5 mil a year.

But I still think he is a moron, meddlesome and egomaniac. So, there go my chances of getting 5 mil a year.

RiC - isn't time to modify your signature?

cleg wrote:RiC - isn't time to modify your signature?

You are right. This is a temporary change. I will think of something different soon.

as this is the "realistic" thread, I should make clear that while my opinion of Snyder at present is really bad, I will say that I am hopeful that this latest episode of someone coming in here and telling us again "Dan Snyder is passionate about this franchise" AND "Dan Snyder is passionate about winning", will mean that this time around, Snyder has turned control over to Mike & Bruce and whoever else they might bring in

That will maybe negate some of my feelings about Snyder and what he has done but at this time I am very disapointed that he has caused the problems and issues that we are facing as a franchise
After a few years of Snyder's tenure I used to think that it was obvious to many that Snyder was the cause of the issues we were facing and he would surely learn from his mistakes - Snyder's ego has prevented him from thinking clearly and that ego is still there - that is my main worry

BUT, I am hopeful that things are on the right path - that is about as realistic as I can get with what we have been through and can never get back

Snyder will always be "meddlesome" it's how much that is the key now

Redskin in Canada wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:we are hopefully seeing a change here but this owner is not to be trusted and no matter what happens with Shanahan's tenure, Snyder will still be one of the worst owners in the NFL - he should have removed himself from managing this franchise a long time ago, nothing will give us back those years of bad management

Give me 5 million a year and I will say the following:

"Daniel Snyder is one of the most passionate owners in the NFL. He really wants to win. He will support me to put the team in the best position to win."

You can add my name to people like Joe Gibbs, Mike Shanahan, etc. who have said so after signing very lucrative contracts. This is the best they could find to say. That's as much as he gets from me too for 5 mil a year.

But I still think he is a moron, meddlesome and egomaniac. So, there go my chances of getting 5 mil a year.

WOW nice to see you're coming around