The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

Skinna Mob wrote:Jason Campbell at least is handling this situation with class. Why would a owner want (sorry to say) a qb with health risk, disrespectful whining baby?

He scores points. Plain and simple.

No the system that was installed before him scores points.

Skinna Mob wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

Skinna Mob wrote:Jason Campbell at least is handling this situation with class. Why would a owner want (sorry to say) a qb with health risk, disrespectful whining baby?

He scores points. Plain and simple.

No the system that was installed before him scores points.

Yeah, it's the "system" that's throwing the ball. Denvers highly touted system was about running the ball and they weren't able to do that, Cutler did good regardless.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

Skinna Mob wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

Skinna Mob wrote:Jason Campbell at least is handling this situation with class. Why would a owner want (sorry to say) a qb with health risk, disrespectful whining baby?

He scores points. Plain and simple.

No the system that was installed before him scores points.

Yeah, it's the "system" that's throwing the ball. Denvers highly touted system was about running the ball and they weren't able to do that, Cutler did good regardless.

Chris there are many reason why Cutler is being perceived as being so much better that Campbell...so I will not debate that with you. The point is, "running" system or not. The system has been the same for more than a decade. That type of consistency can only help any QB become better.

Skinna Mob wrote:Chris there are many reason why Cutler is being perceived as being so much better that Campbell...so I will not debate that with you. The point is, "running" system or not. The system has been the same for more than a decade. That type of consistency can only help any QB become better.

Consistency is huge but he still has to make the throws. He still has to read the coverages and make a decision. His release still needs to be quick.

Give credit where its due.

People called Portis a system back......need I say more?

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

Skinna Mob wrote:Chris there are many reason why Cutler is being perceived as being so much better that Campbell...so I will not debate that with you. The point is, "running" system or not. The system has been the same for more than a decade. That type of consistency can only help any QB become better.

Consistency is huge but he still has to make the throws. He still has to read the coverages and make a decision. His release still needs to be quick.

Give credit where its due.

People called Portis a system back......need I say more?

Chris how can a QB be efficient (make quick throws, read defense quikcer) when there is no consistency or the offense & head coach is changing every year?

Portis is NO system back, but Denver's system has proved that it can succeed with an average RB. No offense, but who is Peyton Hillis? That consistent system is a BEAST.

How could it not be awkward when Campbell comes back?

Skinsfan55 wrote:How could it not be awkward when Campbell comes back?

He has shown high character. If somehow the deal doesnt get done I know Campbell will still be the same high character guy. He could play great or poor in 2009 but I know Campbell will not cause problems.

Skinna Mob wrote:Chris how can a QB be efficient (make quick throws, read defense quikcer) when there is no consistency or the offense & head coach is changing every year?

He can't. But that's not Jason's only problem. He has mechanic issues and mental issues that are holding him back. Stuff that WON'T change. Stability aint gon make his arm move faster.

Skinna Mob wrote:Portis is NO system back, but Denver's system has proved that it can succeed with an average RB. No offense, but who is Peyton Hillis? That consistent system is a BEAST.

That system has failed in Portis's absence. It's been nothing but a RB carousel and the running game has been hideous the past 2 years.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:That system has failed in Portis's absence. It's been nothing but a RB carousel and the running game has been hideous the past 2 years.

I agree the Broncos running game hasnt been the same without Clinton Portis. It truly is a RB carousel. At the sametime the Broncos did average 4.8 yards a carry last year tied for 2nd in the league.

SkinsSince96 wrote:I agree the Broncos running game hasnt been the same without Clinton Portis. It truly is a RB carousel. At the sametime the Broncos did average 4.8 yards a carry last year tied for 2nd in the league.

It has been a carousel, but I would hardly call it "not the same" without Portis.

2002 w/Portis: 2266 yards, 5.0 ypc
2003 w/Portis: 2629 yards, 4.8 ypc
2004 wo/Portis: 2333 yards, 4.4 ypc
2005 wo/Portis: 2539 yards, 4.7 ypc
2006 wo/Portis: 2152 yards, 4.4 ypc
2007 wo/Portis: 1957 yards, 4.6 ypc
2008 wo/Portis: 1862 yards, 4.8 ypc

Aside from the last two years, there numbers haven't dropped much at all (2000 yards three straight years after his departure). I am by no means downgrading Portis' game changing ability, but Denver had a monster offensive line which slowly deteriated.

And how many RB's have the run through in a year? Wasn't it like 4 last year? LOL It kinda cheapens the stats when you're accumulating the totals of 20 different backs in a season when 1 guy used to do it for you all by himself.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:And how many RB's have the run through in a year? Wasn't it like 4 last year? LOL It kinda cheapens the stats when you're accumulating the totals of 20 different backs in a season when 1 guy used to do it for you all by himself.

As you so elegantly put it earlier, "he scores points," what's the difference with "they get yards?" End result is the same.

EDIT: Forgot to mention one little nugget of information. Portis ran for 1508 yards in 2002 and 1591 in 2003 which leaves an additional 758 yards for someone in 2002 and 1038 in 2003. Portis didn't rack all those yards up himself.

Cooter wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:And how many RB's have the run through in a year? Wasn't it like 4 last year? LOL It kinda cheapens the stats when you're accumulating the totals of 20 different backs in a season when 1 guy used to do it for you all by himself.

As you so elegantly put it earlier, "he scores points," what's the difference with "they get yards?" End result is the same.

EDIT: Forgot to mention one little nugget of information. Portis ran for 1508 yards in 2002 and 1591 in 2003 which leaves an additional 758 yards for someone in 2002 and 1038 in 2003. Portis didn't rack all those yards up himself.

Ok. I don't want this to get too much further off topic. My point is that just how everyone said CP was a system back, you can't say that Cutler is a system QB.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

Cooter wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:And how many RB's have the run through in a year? Wasn't it like 4 last year? LOL It kinda cheapens the stats when you're accumulating the totals of 20 different backs in a season when 1 guy used to do it for you all by himself.

As you so elegantly put it earlier, "he scores points," what's the difference with "they get yards?" End result is the same.

EDIT: Forgot to mention one little nugget of information. Portis ran for 1508 yards in 2002 and 1591 in 2003 which leaves an additional 758 yards for someone in 2002 and 1038 in 2003. Portis didn't rack all those yards up himself.

Ok. I don't want this to get too much further off topic. My point is that just how everyone said CP was a system back, you can't say that Cutler is a system QB.

Maybe not, but he will not be immediately successful as everyone thinks if he comes to the Redskins.

we do not want to find out how much better a QB Cutler might be - that he will be better will not be very difficult for him in my opinion - fact is, he's just a more talented QB

we need him to demonstrate that somewhere else

CanesSkins26 wrote:JC said

- he can't get down on himself, hang his head
- he is a good qb. thinks he is one of the best young qbs in the NFL
- there is a lot of stuff that is out of his control
- talked to coaches and they said he was their guy. coaches told him he wasn't the problem
- said the doesn't feel unwanted by coaching staff or teammates, but doesn't know what goes up top (referring to front office)
- hasn't talked to Vinny or Snyder
- said this has given him a chip on his shoulder
- talked about how it's difficult to learn a new system every year
- ready to accept challenge of being a vocal leader
- said he wouldn't feel awkward if the trade doesn't go through

I tell ya what, this man is a class act, the complete opposite of Jay Cutler.

I'm encouraged by JC's words and actually think this can turn into a positive thing for JC and the Skins. He's now heard all the negatives, but now can focus on the few aspects lacking in his game, like being more of a vocal leader and an inspirer. I believe when he says he has a chip on his shoulder, he feels like he has something to prove.

Prove the nay sayers were wrong, prove the FO was premature in trying to trade him, and prove he's worthy of a new contract. Those things combined with actually having stability going into the next season with regard to the QB coach, offensive coordinator and scheme, and I believe he very well could have the best season of his career. In fact, I'd bet on it.

The man is a class act, period. He's had his brain scrambled for the past four years by endless system changes, but a bit of confidence from stability, system wise, and I honestly believe he can become a very good QB.

Skinna Mob wrote:Denver's system has proved that it can succeed with an average RB.

Um, no it hasn't.

Deadskins wrote:

Skinna Mob wrote:Denver's system has proved that it can succeed with an average RB.

Um, no it hasn't.

Yea, it has. They purposefully do nothing to get a good rb and still average great ypc. With aging linemen.

JansenFan wrote:Cutler looked better from a point-scoring standpoint in Denver, but whose to say what he will do here. The point most make in the case of Campbell is that his supporting cast lends to his difficulties, but isn't it equally as plausible that Cutler's supporting cast is part of the reason for his success.

Yea, Brandon Marshall is uncoverable. Cutler would do better here than JC, but it would be like Favre in NY last year. Favre found out he DOES need people who can make a play downfield, which he couldn't do without Greg Jennings. Cutler would probably throw a lot more picks here because of frustration over the lack of talent receiver-wise. Also, if the receivers can't catch Campbell's ball, how were they going to catch Cutler's ball? Campbell has a big arm, but Cutler has a cannon.

LOL yall talk as if Jason Campbell is playing with the worst players in the league.

Jason excuses.

1. The WR's suck.
2. The offensive line sucks.
3. He needs more time.
4. New offense.
5. Lack of continuity.
6. The running game failed him in the 2nd half.

Jeez, I'm not saying none of it is true but what is Jason accountable for?

Chris Luva Luva wrote:LOL yall talk as if Jason Campbell is playing with the worst players in the league.

Jason excuses.

1. The WR's suck.
2. The offensive line sucks.
3. He needs more time.
4. New offense.
5. Lack of continuity.
6. The running game failed him in the 2nd half.

Jeez, I'm not saying none of it is true but what is Jason accountable for?

Chris, the problem is that every single one of those is true. Jason Campbell has not fully matured (nor would that be a realistic expectation) he's never played in the same system two years in a row and he gets sacked all the time.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:LOL yall talk as if Jason Campbell is playing with the worst players in the league.

Jason excuses.

1. The WR's suck.
2. The offensive line sucks.
3. He needs more time.
4. New offense.
5. Lack of continuity.
6. The running game failed him in the 2nd half.

Jeez, I'm not saying none of it is true but what is Jason accountable for?

This is why QB play is overrated. All those things do matter. However, a good QB should be able to overcome some of those things. Very few Qb's can overcome all of those things. The running game in the second half is certainly not an excuse, because the passing game should have thrived with 8 men in the box.

Skinsfan55 wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:LOL yall talk as if Jason Campbell is playing with the worst players in the league.

Jason excuses.

1. The WR's suck.
2. The offensive line sucks.
3. He needs more time.
4. New offense.
5. Lack of continuity.
6. The running game failed him in the 2nd half.

Jeez, I'm not saying none of it is true but what is Jason accountable for?

You still didn't answer my question. What is he accoutable for?

When is he going to lift up the team and make the people around him better?

When is he going to aid an aging offensive line with quicker decision making?

When is he going to speed up his throwing motion so he's not keying off defenders?

When is he going to hit WR's in stride?

When is he going to stop throwing behind WRs?

When is he going to stop throwing passes over their heads?

When is he going to HAVE SOME TOUCH ON HIS PASSES?

When is he going to make BIG LEAGUE passes?

When? When? How many more years? Where is the progression in key areas that have nothing to do with consistency going to occur? He's no better than he was when he was a rookie. How has he improved? Jason has been a bad hand here but it's time to go.

I'm all for keeping and growing talent but you can't do it just for the sake of doing it, you have to do it when it makes sense and IMO now isn't the time.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

Skinsfan55 wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:LOL yall talk as if Jason Campbell is playing with the worst players in the league.

Jason excuses.

1. The WR's suck.
2. The offensive line sucks.
3. He needs more time.
4. New offense.
5. Lack of continuity.
6. The running game failed him in the 2nd half.

Jeez, I'm not saying none of it is true but what is Jason accountable for?

You still didn't answer my question. What is he accoutable for?

When is he going to lift up the team and make the people around him better?

When is he going to aid an aging offensive line with quicker decision making?

When is he going to speed up his throwing motion so he's not keying off defenders?

When is he going to hit WR's in stride?

When is he going to stop throwing behind WRs?

When is he going to stop throwing passes over their heads?

When is he going to HAVE SOME TOUCH ON HIS PASSES?

When is he going to make BIG LEAGUE passes?

When? When? How many more years? Where is the progression in key areas that have nothing to do with consistency going to occur? He's no better than he was when he was a rookie. How has he improved? Jason has been a bad hand here but it's time to go.

I'm all for keeping and growing talent but you can't do it just for the sake of doing it, you have to do it when it makes sense and IMO now isn't the time.

As far as the accuracy concerns go, he really doesn't have that much of a problem there. He has had good completion percentage numbers in the NFl, and excellent ones in college. Plus the receivers drop a lot of passes. Its important to remember that ALL Qb's make bad throws from time to time, so you have to check accuracy stats.

He does need more touch, especially on downfield throws. Not that he's inaccurate, he just tries to throw a flat ball to short receivers who get little separation and can't win a jump ball. You have to float the ball to Moss like Brunell did.

I doubt he is going to improve his release speed much either, although it was much less of a problem when he reads the defense quickly, which I know, wasn't all that often. Maybe getting comfortable with Zorn's O will improve that.

As far as taking sacks goes, he actually has improved a lot in that category. He knows when to pull it down and run, or when to shift in the pocket. Thats where I saw the most improvement last year. I think watching the redskins too long has made some people forget that IT IS NOT NORMAL FOR PASS RUSHERS TO HAVE A CLEAN RELEASE TO THE QB. I.E. The steelers game last year, and the patriots game two years ago. Just to name a few. How often did Taylor and Carter get a clean look last year? Hardly ever. Our pass protection is pathetic.

I don't dislike Jason, I'm just tired of all the excuses.

Plus, the writing is already on the wall. Theres no point in talking about Cutler but Jason's days are numbered. Unless he turns into a probowl QB this year, he's gone. He's the worst QB in the division and barely in the top 15 QB's in the league.