The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

PulpExposure wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:[Okay well I know you hate the guy

I hardly hate the guy, herohamo. I desperately wished he had lived up to both his talent and the amount of money he earned over the years. I thought we were getting a hall of fame type player, and whole heartedly supported him as a Redskin. It didn't work out that way, and I acknowledge that. I have open eyes.

Fair enough.

Bust.

welch wrote:

does lavar arrington qualify as a bust? 2nd overall pick. highly regarded, and was supposed to be the second coming of lawrence taylor.

Bust. Lemar Marshall has been more effective for more seasons. Antonio Pierce (yes, different position) has been far more effective.

Yet another example of first-round bloops. Maybe over-publicized -- who else could be "the face of the Redskins" back then?

Pierce had 1 count it one good season in DC and one good season in NY. Marshall is serviceable at best. GW had issues w/ Lavar and it didn't work out. Don't criticize the man's talents because the system changed to one that didn't fit his style of play.

It's not LaVar's fault that he was dealing with a revolving door of coaches and coordinators for his entire tenure here.

It's also not his fault that he never got to play behind a quality defensive line.

So much of it is being in the right place at the right time. Imagine if LaVar had been drafted by the Patriots and had spent the last 6-7 years playing for Coach Belichick. He'd probably be terrorizing the league with his size, speed, and raw talent.

I'd love to see him back in D.C. but I doubt it'll happen.

JPM36 wrote:It's not LaVar's fault that he was dealing with a revolving door of coaches and coordinators for his entire tenure here.

It's also not his fault that he never got to play behind a quality defensive line.

So much of it is being in the right place at the right time. Imagine if LaVar had been drafted by the Patriots and had spent the last 6-7 years playing for Coach Belichick. He'd probably be terrorizing the league with his size, speed, and raw talent.

I'd love to see him back in D.C. but I doubt it'll happen.

The only way he gets back to DC is if he comes to visit

Great players make the other players around them better - this guy was very good but definetly not great - making a case for his greatness by asserting he would have been better on some other team is just ludicrous

He had the talent and the opportunity - this guy did not "sieze the moment" in history and establish himself as great - he is a bust because he had the talent and did not use it - he thought that greatness was his for the taking but he forgot, it has to be earned.

SkinsJock wrote:

JPM36 wrote:It's not LaVar's fault that he was dealing with a revolving door of coaches and coordinators for his entire tenure here.

It's also not his fault that he never got to play behind a quality defensive line.

So much of it is being in the right place at the right time. Imagine if LaVar had been drafted by the Patriots and had spent the last 6-7 years playing for Coach Belichick. He'd probably be terrorizing the league with his size, speed, and raw talent.

I'd love to see him back in D.C. but I doubt it'll happen.

The only way he gets back to DC is if he comes to visit

Great players make the other players around them better - this guy was very good but definetly not great - making a case for his greatness by asserting he would have been better on some other team is just ludicrous

He had the talent and the opportunity - this guy did not "sieze the moment" in history and establish himself as great - he is a bust because he had the talent and did not use it - he thought that greatness was his for the taking but he forgot, it has to be earned.

It's ludicrous to say that LaVar would have had a better career had he been playing in the same system and behind a quality defensive line?

I do not agree with that at all.

My point is only that great players are great players no matter the other players (or coaches) around them. Great players find a way to make everybody look really good by their play alone. Arrington had moments of brilliance but you would have to admit he really never lived up to his own expectations let alone ours. I think he almost thought that the coaches did not "use him the right way" but coaches have a number of players and schemes that are involved and great players get the job done they don't make excuses why they could not be better.

In summary, he's a disapointment, and, in the vernacular, a bust

JPM36 wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:

JPM36 wrote:It's not LaVar's fault that he was dealing with a revolving door of coaches and coordinators for his entire tenure here.

It's also not his fault that he never got to play behind a quality defensive line.

So much of it is being in the right place at the right time. Imagine if LaVar had been drafted by the Patriots and had spent the last 6-7 years playing for Coach Belichick. He'd probably be terrorizing the league with his size, speed, and raw talent.

I'd love to see him back in D.C. but I doubt it'll happen.

The only way he gets back to DC is if he comes to visit

Great players make the other players around them better - this guy was very good but definetly not great - making a case for his greatness by asserting he would have been better on some other team is just ludicrous

He had the talent and the opportunity - this guy did not "sieze the moment" in history and establish himself as great - he is a bust because he had the talent and did not use it - he thought that greatness was his for the taking but he forgot, it has to be earned.

It's ludicrous to say that LaVar would have had a better career had he been playing in the same system and behind a quality defensive line?

I do not agree with that at all.

I doubt he would have even played for Bill Belechick and the Patriots. He likes smart guys who play their assignments, especially in his linebackers.. Neither is, or has ever been, a strength of LaVar.

Know what would be funny? If he signed with New England and dominated

I doubt that Arrington was destroyed by having different defensive systems. On the whole, most defenses derive from the George Allen / George Halas Bears. That's not a scientific judgement...just impression. Still, except for (a) the total flops like Ron Lynn, or (b) the "small agile" defenses (see the losers in SB 17 and SB 22), and (c) the Parcells / Belichek Giants style, most seem descended from Halas and Allen.

Then let's measure Lavar against the best, since the Redskins had the best defensive coaches for more than 20 years. Better than Belichek.

Could Arrington have played for George Allen? No. Not that Allen had great linebackers, although he inherited Chris Hanburger, and Harold (Tank) McClinton. But Allen liked smart and tough -- mean -- defensive players. Allen was one of the defensive coordinators who invented the defensive "play". His favorites were guys like Jack Pardee and Richie Petibon, guys who coached on the field.

Jack Pardee? No. Pardee (and Beathard) filled the LB group with no-names guys who played their position and hit. Think Neil Olkeiwicz and Monte Coleman. Pardee and Allen loved to craft a defense that would confound an offense.

Finally, Petibon, who coached under Pardee and ran the defense for Gibbs. Compare Arrington to Wilbur Marshall. Both liked to free-lance. Both wanted to be like Lawrence Taylor. Both had talent...especially speed. Petibon worked and worked on Marshall to make him stop free-lancing, and when Marshal learned to play his role, he made all-pro.

Arrington seems to have been one of those (many) guys with talent who never learn to play the game.

welch wrote:I doubt that Arrington was destroyed by having different defensive systems.

You were very reserved in saying this, Welch. Obviously there are core skills of being a LB he never mastered. If he were solid and made some mistakes maybe it could be blamed on the coaching, but he never got the basic skills of the position. And man, the stupid penalties clearly had NOTHING to do with changing coaches.

Every year he was healthy he was productive. He certainly knows the game and has always produced. You cant count the years he was hurt.

Arrington played under numerous coaches and numerous systems. When he was healthy he was productive. He has played on defenses that didnt have much. Until 2005 he finally got a supporting cast to play with. Then the very next year he was shipped out.

He played on a team which was coached by first Norv Turner, then came Marty Shottenheimer, and then Spurrier, and finally GIbbs.

When was anybody on any of these teams ever really winning? Not until Gibbs came back did we start to aquire help around Arrington and fielded guys who could actually play.

Arrington made the Pro Bowl twice on mediocre teams. If you havent noticed our Skins were sucking for the past ten years. All the while Arrington was a lone diamond amongst a bunch of rocks. Other than say maybe Champ Bailey he was the stud on the defensive side.

Only knock on Arrington that is legit. Is that he hasnt been healthy these past two to three years. Thats it. When he was healthy he produced in a lack luster defense. Just wait and see if he comes back he will produce and silence all the nay sayers.

HEROHAMO wrote:Every year he was healthy he was productive. He certainly knows the game and has always produced. You cant count the years he was hurt.

Arrington played under numerous coaches and numerous systems. When he was healthy he was productive. He has played on defenses that didnt have much. Until 2005 he finally got a supporting cast to play with. Then the very next year he was shipped out.

He played on a team which was coached by first Norv Turner, then came Marty Shottenheimer, and then Spurrier, and finally GIbbs.

When was anybody on any of these teams ever really winning? Not until Gibbs came back did we start to aquire help around Arrington and fielded guys who could actually play.

Arrington made the Pro Bowl twice on mediocre teams. If you havent noticed our Skins were sucking for the past ten years. All the while Arrington was a lone diamond amongst a bunch of rocks. Other than say maybe Champ Bailey he was the stud on the defensive side.

Only knock on Arrington that is legit. Is that he hasnt been healthy these past two to three years. Thats it. When he was healthy he produced in a lack luster defense. Just wait and see if he comes back he will produce and silence all the nay sayers.

I mean no disrespect. All I can tell you is I was a huge fan of his when we drafted him.

I ignored my Penn State fan friend who said we drafted him too high, he was a slow learner and would burn us several times for every great play.

I was a huge fan of his in his early days when he was a big hearted young Skin and spoke of being here his whole career.

I cheered again when he signed a $60 million contract to be a Skin for life.

I started to wonder when he called the team he planned to spend his career with liars who misled him.

I started to lose faith as he didn't develop as a player anymore and his teammates said he personally cost them 3 games in one season.

And after two more years of his team's management are liars who misled him I cheered when he paid us $4 million (in cap) to dump him.

Eventually, dude, I had to realize we were better off w/o him no matter how much I tried to support him.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:Every year he was healthy he was productive. He certainly knows the game and has always produced. You cant count the years he was hurt.

Arrington played under numerous coaches and numerous systems. When he was healthy he was productive. He has played on defenses that didnt have much. Until 2005 he finally got a supporting cast to play with. Then the very next year he was shipped out.

He played on a team which was coached by first Norv Turner, then came Marty Shottenheimer, and then Spurrier, and finally GIbbs.

When was anybody on any of these teams ever really winning? Not until Gibbs came back did we start to aquire help around Arrington and fielded guys who could actually play.

Arrington made the Pro Bowl twice on mediocre teams. If you havent noticed our Skins were sucking for the past ten years. All the while Arrington was a lone diamond amongst a bunch of rocks. Other than say maybe Champ Bailey he was the stud on the defensive side.

Only knock on Arrington that is legit. Is that he hasnt been healthy these past two to three years. Thats it. When he was healthy he produced in a lack luster defense. Just wait and see if he comes back he will produce and silence all the nay sayers.

I mean no disrespect. All I can tell you is I was a huge fan of his when we drafted him.

I ignored my Penn State fan friend who said we drafted him too high, he was a slow learner and would burn us several times for every great play.

I was a huge fan of his in his early days when he was a big hearted young Skin and spoke of being here his whole career.

I cheered again when he signed a $60 million contract to be a Skin for life.

I started to wonder when he called the team he planned to spend his career with liars who misled him.

I started to lose faith as he didn't develop as a player anymore and his teammates said he personally cost them 3 games in one season.

And after two more years of his team's management are liars who misled him I cheered when he paid us $4 million (in cap) to dump him.

Eventually, dude, I had to realize we were better off w/o him no matter how much I tried to support him.

Fair enough.

HEROHAMO wrote:Every year he was healthy he was productive. He certainly knows the game and has always produced.

Dude...he didn't produce.

He never had 100 tackles (even solo + assist he never hit 100!) in a season. He only had 5 sacks or more twice in his career. He had 3 INTs in his career.

From someone drafted #2, that's not production. That's awful production.

He wasn't a tackling machine (someone like our new guy, London Fletcher-Baker, with his 7 straight years of 100 tackles or more, including 6 with more than 130). Hell, Baker has had 11 INTs in his career, 4 last season alone.

LaVar can't compare as a passrusher, either. In his 5 full seasons, he had 21.5 sacks. That's about 5.3 per season. Joey Porter, in his 8 full seasons, he had 60 sacks, or 7.5 per season. And he was a freaking 3rd round draft pick.

I mean if you want to compare LaVar soups to nuts to how he should have been, look at Lawrence Taylor's production. And cry. Because that's what he should have been.

He wasn't productive, Hero. By any stretch.

Who is this LaVar person you all keep talking about?

PulpExposure wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:Every year he was healthy he was productive. He certainly knows the game and has always produced.

Dude...he didn't produce.

He never had 100 tackles (even solo + assist he never hit 100!) in a season. He only had 5 sacks or more twice in his career. He had 3 INTs in his career.

From someone drafted #2, that's not production. That's awful production.

He wasn't a tackling machine (someone like our new guy, London Fletcher-Baker, with his 7 straight years of 100 tackles or more, including 6 with more than 130). Hell, Baker has had 11 INTs in his career, 4 last season alone.

LaVar can't compare as a passrusher, either. In his 5 full seasons, he had 21.5 sacks. That's about 5.3 per season. Joey Porter, in his 8 full seasons, he had 60 sacks, or 7.5 per season. And he was a freaking 3rd round draft pick.

I mean if you want to compare LaVar soups to nuts to how he should have been, look at Lawrence Taylor's production. And cry. Because that's what he should have been.

He wasn't productive, Hero. By any stretch.

When Lavar was healthy. He played on lack luster redskin teams.

It just so happens that when he was injured we started to bring in some talent around him.

But for years he was carrying a sad and pathetic team coached by the likes of Spurrier and Norv Turner.

Say what you want. Like I said I still support him and wouldnt mind seeing him back.

LET. IT. GO.

If I can move on from Brunell (who arguably contributed more to Redskins success than LA ever did), you can move on from Arrington.

REDEEMEDSKIN wrote:LET. IT. GO.

If I can move on from Brunell (who arguably contributed more to Redskins success than LA ever did), you can move on from Arrington.

a little off topic, but, in my opinion, Brunell will be a really big help to Campbell and that is one of the more important reasons for bringing him back - in fact, I think Brunell is here primarily because of his leadership and as soon as a more effective back-up can be found, I will be a lot happier.

Arrington could have been like Brunell and played beyond his "productive" years if he was more of a team leader, and, a better team player.

I agree though, HH - you really have to let this go - he was... but he is no longer

SkinsJock wrote:Arrington could have been like Brunell and played beyond his "productive" years if he was more of a team leader, and, a better team player.

I agree though, HH - you really have to let this go - he was... but he is no longer

I agree wholeheartedly.

In the words of the great Rocky Balboa at the end of Rocky IV:

If I can change, and you can change, we ALL can change!!

REDEEMEDSKIN wrote:LET. IT. GO.

If I can move on from Brunell (who arguably contributed more to Redskins success than LA ever did), you can move on from Arrington.

I have moved on. I am just saying I wouldnt mind seeing him back on the squad. But I am happy with our current squad. It would just be the cherry on a sundae if he came back.

OK, Hero, I understand being loyal to one of the rare good players on the team you follow...and I'm assuming (without doing detective work on all your posts) that you started rooting for the Redskins naybe a little before Arrington was drafted.

Truth is, I used to argue that Eddie LeBaron was a better QB than Johhny Unitas. Back in the late '50's, many kids (and adults) in the Maryland suburbs were Colts fans because the Colts were champs. People uised to turn their roof antennas (imagine...no cable!!!) to pick up the Baltimore channels.

"The Little General" had the best QB rating in '58 or so, measured in net yards per pass. (That was how the NFL rated QB's way-back-when.). I argued long and hard that each and every one of our Redskins was better than the corresponding Colt. Jim Podoley was better than Lennie Moore (ouch!!!). Ed Sutton better than "Long Gone" Dupre. Don Bosseler better than Alan Ameche. Gene Brito better than Gino Marchetti. I was right about Brito, and Dupre and Ameche were not super-heroes, but their team had guys like Jim Parker and Gene Lipscomb. Honestly, no comparison, but I still argued...and believed.

That's loyalty.

Anyway, I might not agree with you, having seen Chris Hanburger and Jack Pardee, and "the no-name" '80's crew and Wilbur Marshall, but I respect you all the more for feeling the loyalty to Arrington.

welch wrote:OK, Hero, I understand being loyal to one of the rare good players on the team you follow...and I'm assuming (without doing detective work on all your posts) that you started rooting for the Redskins naybe a little before Arrington was drafted.

Truth is, I used to argue that Eddie LeBaron was a better QB than Johhny Unitas. Back in the late '50's, many kids (and adults) in the Maryland suburbs were Colts fans because the Colts were champs. People uised to turn their roof antennas (imagine...no cable!!!) to pick up the Baltimore channels.

"The Little General" had the best QB rating in '58 or so, measured in net yards per pass. (That was how the NFL rated QB's way-back-when.). I argued long and hard that each and every one of our Redskins was better than the corresponding Colt. Jim Podoley was better than Lennie Moore (ouch!!!). Ed Sutton better than "Long Gone" Dupre. Don Bosseler better than Alan Ameche. Gene Brito better than Gino Marchetti. I was right about Brito, and Dupre and Ameche were not super-heroes, but their team had guys like Jim Parker and Gene Lipscomb. Honestly, no comparison, but I still argued...and believed.

That's loyalty.

Anyway, I might not agree with you, having seen Chris Hanburger and Jack Pardee, and "the no-name" '80's crew and Wilbur Marshall, but I respect you all the more for feeling the loyalty to Arrington.

I see were your coming from. Much respect to you as well. Wow u must be a lifelong skins fan. The other day I was speaking to a lady who used to be the nurse for the Skins when Sonny Jurgenson played. Anyhow I was helping her fix her computer over the phone and her whole family was Skins fans. I thought that was pretty cool she had pictures with all the long time skins. Anyhow Hail to the SKins.Hail Victory!!