Another Day in the Middle-East

[ATV]

"i'm sure we emboldened the Germans and allowed them to recruit more Hitler youth after we invaded in n. Africa and Normandy too."

LOL...this easily demonstrates that you have no grasp on history. By this point the German war machine was stretched to capacity. They more than had their hands full battling the Soviets. Trying to compare a World War where we were engaged in obliterating another nation to this occupation is laughable in itself.

"This argument of yours is weak my friend."

Oh yea? My argument that by occupying another Nation, killing hundreds of thousands of their people, with sprinklings of rape and torture, is emboldening the Iraqi people (and Muslims....the rest of the World, come to think of it) against us? Who woulda thunk it?

"sure and the former (Al-Qaeda) will follow us and the latter (iraqis in general) will stay. But the former will follow us because he believes us to be weak after his "victory" over us in Iraq."

Al-Qaeda will follow us no matter whether they believe us to be weak or not.

Leaving Iraq won't be a sign of weakness anyhow - It will be a sign of strength. Weakness is pouring resources and lives down the toilet for a lost cause. Strength is making right, just, smart decisions without regard to the opinion of those who are determined to attack us no matter what we do.

[Countertrey]

I have made several complaints that the deaths of innocent lives lost in Afghanistan is illegal but I have never said invading Afghanistian was wrong.

Sooo... Invading was OK, but the deaths caused were war crimes. You continue to amuse me. You are not capable of telling the truth. You are all about spinning your incredibly inconsistent responses. I have also seen you say you support the troops, and immediately afterwards, call them murderers and criminals... We know what you said, and we know what you meant.

You hate America, yet accept her shelter... My original premise stands.

Funny boy.

[dnpmakkah]

You hate America, yet accept her shelter... My original premise stands. Funny boy.

What are you going to do about it? Nothing. Thats what. You act as if you love this nation. But you would be the LAST person to defend it if need be. Don't even try to pretend as if you would. Regardless, since you have your mind set about me...why don't you just ignore what I have to say and go live your life counting money or something else that you deem more productive than saving lives since materialistic items obviously mean more to you than humanity does.

Or better yet go koonbykoon with Bush. I'm sure he would like that. The two of you can keep pretending life is swell with the War of Terror. Even though it is clearly obvious that this American government has been humilated and only a select few---you included cling on to a dying hope of success, which will never come. The government is in shambles and your defense minister just stepped down. I don't need to prove anything to you. The actions speak for themselves. I say the war has been a failure, you say not. The election, resignation, mounting U.S. death toll speak for themselves, which equal a big I WIN THAT ARGUEMENT.

For the most part in EVERY coversation not just with me but with everyone else - you never bring information to the table. Your only way out is to instead make invaluable remarks about the poster. Don't cry because the government you so dearly cling too is failing and in part you are failing. Don't cry because everything I and others have said about this war is TRUE and everything you have said has been debunked time and time again.

Right now I have a smirk on my face because all the losers out there who supported Bush, his thugs and his policies have been given a big IN YOUR FACE and it makes me feel good. I like it even more because you know it. In due time you will accept the failures and I will be here to laugh then you will be my funny boy

My original premise stands. Hook boy.

[Countertrey]

But you would be the LAST person to defend it if need be

Whatever. I gave 32 years of my life in military service, and have already defended her several times. Should the government ever decide the need my services again, they will call me and tell me to report.

What have you ever done to defend her but bitch? All I see are incessant complaints.

Regardless, since you have your mind set about me...why don't you just ignore what I have to say and go live your life counting money or something else that you deem more productive than saving lives since materialistic items obviously mean more to you than humanity does.

ROFLMAO!! Is that what you have?? My "mind set" has been determined by observing your martialphobic rants through months of posts. Non-stop railings against our response to provokations. Repeated reflexive bashing of the country providing your assylum. Recurring demonstrations of your ignorance of military values, and law.

I say the war has been a failure, you say not.

LOL Finally, a point you have been consistent on. Unfortunately, your lack of literacy shows. You have no idea what I believe of this war. You make assumptions, and, as usual, you are wrongamundo.

You are still a very funny guy!

[thaiphoon]

i'm sure we emboldened the Germans and allowed them to recruit more Hitler youth after we invaded in n. Africa and Normandy too."

LOL...this easily demonstrates that you have no grasp on history. By this point the German war machine was stretched to capacity. They more than had their hands full battling the Soviets. Trying to compare a World War where we were engaged in obliterating another nation to this occupation is laughable in itself.

Re-read your history. There was a surge in Hitler youth recruits after the allies started taking it to the Germans.

"This argument of yours is weak my friend."

Oh yea? My argument that by occupying another Nation, killing hundreds of thousands of their people, with sprinklings of rape and torture, is emboldening the Iraqi people (and Muslims....the rest of the World, come to think of it) against us? Who woulda thunk it?

no- your argument is that we should leave without finishing what we started...this would be interpreted as a sign of weakness by our enemies. Weakness invites aggression by your enemy.

"sure and the former (Al-Qaeda) will follow us and the latter (iraqis in general) will stay. But the former will follow us because he believes us to be weak after his "victory" over us in Iraq."

Al-Qaeda will follow us no matter whether they believe us to be weak or not.

because they perceive us to be weak. They will naturally believe that they forced us from the field.

Leaving Iraq won't be a sign of weakness anyhow - It will be a sign of strength. Weakness is pouring resources and lives down the toilet for a lost cause. Strength is making right, just, smart decisions without regard to the opinion of those who are determined to attack us no matter what we do.

This is probably the most laughable argument in favor of surrender I've ever seen.

[ATV]

"Re-read your history. There was a surge in Hitler youth recruits after the allies started taking it to the Germans. "

Yea? You read that? Then I'm sure it would'nt be a problem for you to cut and paste it here.

As I wrote before, the Germans were already stretched to capacity. Yes, by the time the Allies entered Germany they were, out of desperation, throwing scraps at us - boys and old men. To say that these poor saps were emboldened, by Nazi propoganda or otherwise, seems like quite a stretch. This was a tyranical government that operated through fear (hey, sound familiar?). These people had little choice.

"no- your argument is that we should leave without finishing what we started..."

What we started? No, sorry, that has long been accomplished. There were no "Weapons of Mass Destruction".

"this would be interpreted as a sign of weakness by our enemies. Weakness invites aggression by your enemy....blah blah blah"

I've already tried to explain to you why this Republican talking point is ridiculous.

I'm still waiting for the Vietnamese to attack us (since our weakness was clearly shown when we pulled out of there). It should be any day now....

[thaiphoon]

As I wrote before, the Germans were already stretched to capacity. Yes, by the time the Allies entered Germany they were, out of desperation, throwing scraps at us - boys and old men. To say that these poor saps were emboldened, by Nazi propoganda or otherwise, seems like quite a stretch. This was a tyranical government that operated through fear (hey, sound familiar?). These people had little choice.

I highlighted the portion of your screed that is relevant...

Now where did I say when the allies entered Germany??

"no- your argument is that we should leave without finishing what we started..."

What we started? No, sorry, that has long been accomplished. There were no "Weapons of Mass Destruction".

Again... we found 500 tons of Uranium along with his WMD program ready to start up again once sanctions were lifted. Additionally, WMD's were but one rationale for going and the only reason they got frontpage was that the British needed political "cover" before committing troops. Haven't you been paying attention??

"this would be interpreted as a sign of weakness by our enemies. Weakness invites aggression by your enemy....blah blah blah"

I've already tried to explain to you why this Republican talking point is ridiculous.

Yes...but the key word there is ... tried...

I'm still waiting for the Vietnamese to attack us (since our weakness was clearly shown when we pulled out of there). It should be any day now....

As I said before...the Vietnamese weren't going to follow us back here. The terrorists will.

In fact ... todays news proves my point !!!

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlene ... rss&rpc=22

and I quote...

"I swear by God we shall not rest from jihad until we...blow up the filthiest house known as the White House," the voice on the recording said.

Here's a good article

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/P ... 3jaydy.asp

and while it rightly takes the current administration to task for its failures it also makes another very valid point... to wit ...

Why do insurgent gangs, who have vastly smaller resources and manpower than the American soldiers they fight, continue to try to kill those soldiers? The answer is, because they believe they only have to kill a few more, and the soldiers will leave. They need not inflict a military defeat (which would be impossible, given the strength of the American military)—all they need to do is survive until American voters decide to throw in the towel, which might happen at any moment.
The proper response to that calculation is to make emphatically clear that the fight will not end until one side or the other wins, decisively. That kind of battle can only have one ending, as Abraham Lincoln understood. In a speech delivered a month after his reelection, Lincoln carefully surveyed the North's resources and manpower and concluded that the nation's wealth was "unexhausted and, as we believe, inexhaustible." Southern soldiers be-gan to desert in droves. Through the long, bloody summer and fall of 1864, the South had hung on only because of the belief that the North might tire of the conflict. But Lincoln did not tire. Instead, he doubled the bet—and won the war.

You don't leave until the job is done and the enemy is defeated. anything else is surrender. You advocate surrender. I do not.

[dnpmakkah]

You are still a very funny guy!

My original statement stand. If you dont' like what you hear then don't respond/read it.

[ATV]

"Now where did I say when the allies entered Germany"

Ok, I'll bite, cut and paste your information which shows how "i'm sure we emboldened the Germans and allowed them to recruit more Hitler youth after we invaded in n. Africa and Normandy too." You're sure? Now demonstrate how this allowed the Germans to recruit more.

"Again... we found 500 tons of Uranium along with his WMD program ready to start up again once sanctions were lifted."

Yea? I must have missed that. Could your provide a link for that too?

"WMD's were but one rationale for going and the only reason they got frontpage was that the British needed political "cover" before committing troops."

Uh-oh, it looks like you're "Cutting and Runnning" from our reason for invading Iraq. Yea, geez, where have I been? I guess I missed that as well. Could you provide a link for that too (not current-day think-tank trash, but an old newspaper article for instance)?

"As I said before...the Vietnamese weren't going to follow us back here. The terrorists will."

The terrorists have always wanted to follow us back here and they always will, no matter (using your example) whether Rumsfeld was fired or not.

"You don't leave until the job is done and the enemy is defeated. anything else is surrender."

The enemy in Iraq, the enemy of the Iraqi people, is ourselves. Our occupation. They way to succeed in Iraq is to end our occupation.

"You advocate surrender. I do not."

I advocate the will of the Iraqi and American people. You advocate obsolete Republican talking points.

[thaiphoon]

"Now where did I say when the allies entered Germany"

Ok, I'll bite, cut and paste your information which shows how "i'm sure we emboldened the Germans and allowed them to recruit more Hitler youth after we invaded in n. Africa and Normandy too." You're sure? Now demonstrate how this allowed the Germans to recruit more.

Gee...you don't think that the chance to fight the enemy now that they are showing thmselves wouldn't drive up recruitment and popular sentiment? Very naive position my friend...

"Again... we found 500 tons of Uranium along with his WMD program ready to start up again once sanctions were lifted."

Yea? I must have missed that. Could your provide a link for that too?

Jesus... go back through what I've posted on this subject.

http://www.the-hogs.net/forum/viewtopic. ... c&start=40

The NY times is a good source is it not (I'm using left-wing sources juts in case you doubt their bias). In May 2004 they reported;

"The United States has informed an international agency that oversees nuclear materials that it intends to move hundreds of tons of uranium from a sealed repository south of Baghdad to a more secure place outside Iraq. The repository, at Tuwaitha, a centerpiece of Saddam Hussein's nuclear weapons program until it was largely shut down after the first Persian Gulf war in 1991, holds more than 500 tons of uranium,"

Satisfied??

"WMD's were but one rationale for going and the only reason they got frontpage was that the British needed political "cover" before committing troops."

Uh-oh, it looks like you're "Cutting and Runnning" from our reason for invading Iraq. Yea, geez, where have I been? I guess I missed that as well. Could you provide a link for that too (not current-day think-tank trash, but an old newspaper article for instance)?

Absolutely not... our "reason" was multifold. There was never just one reason if you were paying attention in the first place. Try actually looking at the rationale for going to war that Congress authorized. Its not my job to do your homework for you.

"As I said before...the Vietnamese weren't going to follow us back here. The terrorists will."

The terrorists have always wanted to follow us back here and they always will, no matter (using your example) whether Rumsfeld was fired or not.

So using your own rationale its better to fight them over there than wait for them to come here. You can't win a war if you're playing defense all the time.

"You don't leave until the job is done and the enemy is defeated. anything else is surrender."

The enemy in Iraq, the enemy of the Iraqi people, is ourselves. Our occupation. They way to succeed in Iraq is to end our occupation.

The enemy of the iraqi people is the terrorists themselves who are intentionally targeting them. Again...you blame America first. I don't.

"You advocate surrender. I do not."

I advocate the will of the Iraqi and American people. You advocate obsolete Republican talking points.

It remains to be seen that the whole of the American public wants us to pull out right away. You mis-interpret the political tea-leaves at your own peril. Of those who said Iraq was their main reason for their vote only 30% advocated an immediate pullout. Many people are wanting victory and know we should stay in order to do it. My cousin would certainly like to be home right now but he also wants to complete his mission over there.

[ATV]

Sigh...same lame tactics, new day......

"Gee...you don't think that the chance to fight the enemy now that they are showing thmselves wouldn't drive up recruitment and popular sentiment? Very naive position my friend..."

Yep, still waiting for that link we talked about.

"The NY times is a good source is it not (I'm using left-wing sources juts in case you doubt their bias). In May 2004 they reported..."

Uh, ok, where is it? This is all you've got, one paragraph from some New York Times article? Where's the rest? I thought you were going to post some links? For instance....

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/02/kay.report/

Nope, no WMD here, or....

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/01/12/wmd.search/

Whups, no WMD here either. Again, still waiting for that link.

"Absolutely not... our "reason" was multifold."

Huh, that's interesting. Again, still waiting for that link.

"So using your own rationale its better to fight them over there than wait for them to come here."

Uh, nope, attempting to put words in my mouth again.

"The enemy of the iraqi people is the terrorists themselves who are intentionally targeting them."

If this were true then why would almost all Iraqis want us to end our occupation?

"It remains to be seen that the whole of the American public wants us to pull out right away."

Here are the latest poll numbers...

Do you favor or oppose the U.S. war in Iraq?

Favor - 33%
Oppose - 61%
Unsure - 6%

.....Want the link?

[Countertrey]

If you dont' like what you hear then don't respond/read it.

Yes! That way, you can spread all the slander and fabrications you'd like, without challenge. Makes perfect sense.

I'll get right on that.

[dnpmakkah]

If you dont' like what you hear then don't respond/read it.

Yes! That way, you can spread all the slander and fabrications you'd like, without challenge. Makes perfect sense.

I'll get right on that.

Bush + Adminstrative Policy = Failure. At this point I don't mind anymore if you respond to what I say. I have proven to be right. The American people have spoken. The fact that the world has celebrated the adminstrations defeat means the world has spoken. Therefore what you say means diddle.