The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

brad7686 wrote:But as of right now, Russell Okung is a much better pass blocker.

FOR WHO's SCHEME?! Who are you to say that he'll pass block better in Mikes scheme. He might be worse. His lack of athetlicism might negate his ability to pass block. How can you set up to block when you can't get to the correct spot to make the block because you're too slow for what Mike wants to do here?

brad7686 wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

brad7686 wrote:What I do know is that I watch Okung, I see him dominate Sergio Kindle, (and Brian Orakpo last year). I watch Trent Williams against Kindle, and he gets ruined. What you assume is that Mike Shanahan thinks Trent Williams is a better pass blocker than Russell Okung. He doesn't. He is gambling on his scheme as opposed to taking the better player.

And you just prove his point even further...

You are a better evaluator of talent than a 2 time superbowl winning NFL Head Coach. That sir, is a hilarious.

No, that is not what I'm saying. Mike Shanahan KNOWS Okung is better. He just thinks his scheme is all that and he can put anybody he wants in there and they will shine. He might be right. But as of right now, Russell Okung is a much better pass blocker.

How do you know what Shanahan knows? Ridiculous. If that were true, he'd have drafted Eric Berry and just put a late-round rookie in there, or stood pat.

brad7686 wrote:What you assume is that Mike Shanahan thinks Trent Williams is a better pass blocker than Russell Okung. He doesn't. He is gambling on his scheme as opposed to taking the better player.

Actually, I think we are assuming much the opposite, and every article that has been posted so far supports this. We understand that we're losing some on the pass blocking side, but we are gaining a lot on the run blocking side. More specifically we are getting a player better at the type of run blocking that is required in a Shanahan offense where speed and athleticism is crititcal to open the cut back lanes. Since you've shown that you like to watch film, I'd recommend watching some of the Broncos film when Shanny was the coach. Take a look at how much the O-lineman are required to move. Notice how many yards those offenses get on the ground. Notice how the running game sets up the play action passing. Notice how many bench press reps each player does. (Sorry, I had to throw that in there.)

A good play action game is better than a single good offensive tackle because it keeps the defenders guessing rather than bull-rushing and helps the receivers get open quicker.

And it's not like he can't improve at pass blocking.

Trent can improve by getting stronger and pass blocking technique.

Okung cannot get faster, that's something you're born with.

Will Trent be better? Nobody knows YET. But the selection makes sense and there's no reason to believe he'll fail before he's even freaking visited redskin park yet.

I can not doubt the off season moves and the draft pick/picks that Shanahan and Allen have pulled off up to this point. It is a new regime and we all can judge there decisions where it counts the most and that is with wins or loses in the next couple years. I am more confident with this off season then in years past that is for sure.

gt1135 wrote:

brad7686 wrote:What you assume is that Mike Shanahan thinks Trent Williams is a better pass blocker than Russell Okung. He doesn't. He is gambling on his scheme as opposed to taking the better player.

Actually, I think we are assuming much the opposite, and every article that has been posted so far supports this. We understand that we're losing some on the pass blocking side, but we are gaining a lot on the run blocking side. More specifically we are getting a player better at the type of run blocking that is required in a Shanahan offense where speed and athleticism is crititcal to open the cut back lanes. Since you've shown that you like to watch film, I'd recommend watching some of the Broncos film when Shanny was the coach. Take a look at how much the O-lineman are required to move. Notice how many yards those offenses get on the ground. Notice how the running game sets up the play action passing. Notice how many bench press reps each player does. (Sorry, I had to throw that in there.)

A good play action game is better than a single good offensive tackle because it keeps the defenders guessing rather than bull-rushing and helps the receivers get open quicker.

Well yea, he is a good run blocker. However, you can find right tackles in the second round. I wanted a Samuels, a guy who dominates elite pass rushers. I personally don't think we are getting that.

No. I think if Shannihan thought that Okung was a better player, he would've chosen him. Okung just isn't the best fit for his offense. His offense has shown that if you get the right players - regardless of age, etc, it can be successful. He got the guy they felt was the best fit for their offense.

brad7686 wrote:What I do know is that I watch Okung, I see him dominate Sergio Kindle, (and Brian Orakpo last year). I watch Trent Williams against Kindle, and he gets ruined. What you assume is that Mike Shanahan thinks Trent Williams is a better pass blocker than Russell Okung. He doesn't. He is gambling on his scheme as opposed to taking the better player. I have no problem if you want to think NFL coaches are always right, because we all no they never mess up. But don't tell me I don't know the difference between giving up a sack and not giving up a sack.

The coaches are stupid because you watched some plays on TV and you know better then they do who is the better NFL talent. Hey, It's America, you can post anything you want no matter how shallow and uninsightful it is. That you've accurately assessed their talent is beyond question. Ergo, if the coaches selected the other guy then they ignored talent.

frankcal20 wrote:No. I think if Shannihan thought that Okung was a better player, he would've chosen him. Okung just isn't the best fit for his offense. His offense has shown that if you get the right players - regardless of age, etc, it can be successful. He got the guy they felt was the best fit for their offense.

yea but being better for a scheme and being a better player overall are different animals.

brad7686 wrote:Mike Shanahan KNOWS Okung is better. He just thinks his scheme is all that and he can put anybody he wants in there and they will shine

And you know this because...

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

brad7686 wrote:What I do know is that I watch Okung, I see him dominate Sergio Kindle, (and Brian Orakpo last year). I watch Trent Williams against Kindle, and he gets ruined. What you assume is that Mike Shanahan thinks Trent Williams is a better pass blocker than Russell Okung. He doesn't. He is gambling on his scheme as opposed to taking the better player. I have no problem if you want to think NFL coaches are always right, because we all no they never mess up. But don't tell me I don't know the difference between giving up a sack and not giving up a sack.

The coaches are stupid because you watched some plays on TV and you know better then they do who is the better NFL talent. Hey, It's America, you can post anything you want no matter how shallow and uninsightful it is. That you've accurately assessed their talent is beyond question. Ergo, if the coaches selected the other guy then they ignored talent.

Yea, you are right Kaz, there is no difference between one guy not letting people get to the qb and one guy letting all sorts of people get to the qb.

brad7686 wrote:yea but being better for a scheme and being a better player overall are different animals.

So are caterpillars and hippos.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

brad7686 wrote:Mike Shanahan KNOWS Okung is better. He just thinks his scheme is all that and he can put anybody he wants in there and they will shine

And you know this because...

I know this because every time somebody talks about us taking Williams they mention zone blocking scheme. Nobody comes out and says Man, that guy is better than Okung.

brad7686 wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:No. I think if Shannihan thought that Okung was a better player, he would've chosen him. Okung just isn't the best fit for his offense. His offense has shown that if you get the right players - regardless of age, etc, it can be successful. He got the guy they felt was the best fit for their offense.

yea but being better for a scheme and being a better player overall are different animals.

So Brad I'm thinking you mean that you'd rather have the better overall player as opposed to who the HC thinks will succeed better in his scheme? Is that pretty accurate cause you said Okung IS better and that's why you wanted him here right bro?

langleyparkjoe wrote:

brad7686 wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:No. I think if Shannihan thought that Okung was a better player, he would've chosen him. Okung just isn't the best fit for his offense. His offense has shown that if you get the right players - regardless of age, etc, it can be successful. He got the guy they felt was the best fit for their offense.

yea but being better for a scheme and being a better player overall are different animals.

So Brad I'm thinking you mean that you'd rather have the better overall player as opposed to who the HC thinks will succeed better in his scheme? Is that pretty accurate cause you said Okung IS better and that's why you wanted him here right bro?

Correct.

brad7686 wrote:Yea, you are right Kaz, there is no difference between one guy not letting people get to the qb and one guy letting all sorts of people get to the qb.

This would be referred to as "begging the question."

brad7686 wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

brad7686 wrote:Mike Shanahan KNOWS Okung is better. He just thinks his scheme is all that and he can put anybody he wants in there and they will shine

And you know this because...

I know this because every time somebody talks about us taking Williams they mention zone blocking scheme. Nobody comes out and says Man, that guy is better than Okung.

The point is the attributes that make Okung a better overall player must not translate to this scheme. Soooooo, Okung is NOT the better player for this scheme.

IF we ran a scheme where Okungs attributes fit better, he'd be here. It's that simple.

brad7686 wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

brad7686 wrote:Mike Shanahan KNOWS Okung is better. He just thinks his scheme is all that and he can put anybody he wants in there and they will shine

And you know this because...

I know this because every time somebody talks about us taking Williams they mention zone blocking scheme. Nobody comes out and says Man, that guy is better than Okung.

OK, so here is what you said:

brad7686 wrote:every time somebody talks about us taking Williams they mention zone blocking scheme. Nobody comes out and says Man, that guy is better than Okung.

Ergo

brad7686 wrote:Mike Shanahan KNOWS Okung is better. He just thinks his scheme is all that and he can put anybody he wants in there and they will shine

OMG, you are so funny...

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

brad7686 wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

brad7686 wrote:Mike Shanahan KNOWS Okung is better. He just thinks his scheme is all that and he can put anybody he wants in there and they will shine

And you know this because...

I know this because every time somebody talks about us taking Williams they mention zone blocking scheme. Nobody comes out and says Man, that guy is better than Okung.

The point is the attributes that make Okung a better overall player must not translate to this scheme. Soooooo, Okung is NOT the better player for this scheme.

IF we ran a scheme where Okungs attributes fit better, he'd be here. It's that simple.

I guess that means we will be running a lot, cuz between that guy and Heyer, there is going to be bedlam in the backfield.

brad7686 wrote:

langleyparkjoe wrote:

brad7686 wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:No. I think if Shannihan thought that Okung was a better player, he would've chosen him. Okung just isn't the best fit for his offense. His offense has shown that if you get the right players - regardless of age, etc, it can be successful. He got the guy they felt was the best fit for their offense.

yea but being better for a scheme and being a better player overall are different animals.

So Brad I'm thinking you mean that you'd rather have the better overall player as opposed to who the HC thinks will succeed better in his scheme? Is that pretty accurate cause you said Okung IS better and that's why you wanted him here right bro?

Correct.

I gotchu bro, I can dig it. My thing is that Okung is gone and Trent is here, I'm just soooooooooooo tired of complaining about moves we made or didn't make ya know? We've had years of it with that idiot Vinny so I guess I'm just taking the attitude of not complaining about it and just blindly supporting everything at this point.. totally out of my love for the Skins will I just say "ef it" and blindly follow.

langleyparkjoe wrote:I gotchu bro, I can dig it. My thing is that Okung is gone and Trent is here, I'm just soooooooooooo tired of complaining about moves we made or didn't make ya know? We've had years of it with that idiot Vinny so I guess I'm just taking the attitude of not complaining about it and just blindly supporting everything at this point.. totally out of my love for the Skins will I just say "ef it" and blindly follow.

Scheme is not the only factor. What I'd read about Trent before the draft was he had a higher upside and a higher downside risk then Okung regardless of "scheme." Brad has no knowledge at all that they didn't just evaluate him higher. He's assuming the truth of that which is not proven (i.e., begging the question) and drawing conclusions from that assumption. He has no quote from Shanahan or any other evidence at all that SHANNAHAN drafted him for scheme, only that the talking heads not in the Skins decision making process thought that would be the reason. Oh, and he watched some of the games on TV.

langleyparkjoe wrote:

brad7686 wrote:

langleyparkjoe wrote:

brad7686 wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:No. I think if Shannihan thought that Okung was a better player, he would've chosen him. Okung just isn't the best fit for his offense. His offense has shown that if you get the right players - regardless of age, etc, it can be successful. He got the guy they felt was the best fit for their offense.

yea but being better for a scheme and being a better player overall are different animals.

So Brad I'm thinking you mean that you'd rather have the better overall player as opposed to who the HC thinks will succeed better in his scheme? Is that pretty accurate cause you said Okung IS better and that's why you wanted him here right bro?

Correct.

I gotchu bro, I can dig it. My thing is that Okung is gone and Trent is here, I'm just soooooooooooo tired of complaining about moves we made or didn't make ya know? We've had years of it with that idiot Vinny so I guess I'm just taking the attitude of not complaining about it and just blindly supporting everything at this point.. totally out of my love for the Skins will I just say "ef it" and blindly follow.

Yea, I only get in these arguments because people say I'm wrong. Otherwise, I would just chill and hope Williams develops the way Shanny thinks he can.

brad7686 wrote:Yea, I only get in these arguments because people say I'm wrong. Otherwise, I would just chill and hope Williams develops the way Shanny thinks he can.

Dude, the point is that you're making flagrant assumptions and stating them as fact.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

brad7686 wrote:Yea, I only get in these arguments because people say I'm wrong. Otherwise, I would just chill and hope Williams develops the way Shanny thinks he can.

Dude, the point is that you're making flagrant assumptions and stating them as fact.

Saying that right now Trent Williams is not as good a pass blocker as Okung is not a flagrant assumption. It IS Fact. If you don't believe me, believe any scout in the world. Does he have more upside? Possibly.

brad7686 wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

brad7686 wrote:Yea, I only get in these arguments because people say I'm wrong. Otherwise, I would just chill and hope Williams develops the way Shanny thinks he can.

Dude, the point is that you're making flagrant assumptions and stating them as fact.

Saying that right now Trent Williams is not as good a pass blocker as Okung is not a flagrant assumption. It IS Fact. If you don't believe me, believe any scout in the world. Does he have more upside? Possibly.

If you badly needed a car, and your wife, girlfriend, significant other or whatever, bought you a BMW. Would you go outside and say "Ahhh, I don't like this choice. BMW's are good and all, but Mercedes is MUCH better. I don't like this car. Everyone knows Benz's are better! What were you thinking!!?

Shut up and ride.