The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Let's keep the bickering to a minimal, please and thanks.

skinsfan#33 wrote:

chiefhog44 wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:That's the thing - it's not all on this player or that player or that coach - it's a team that is not playing well together and the players do not seem to be playing with a sense of urgency or passion

In my opinion it is not a person - it looks to me like a group of talented players trying to play the game as well as they can but there just does not seem to be any accountability or leadership here - good teams find a way to win and look like they deserve the victory - we seem to be a team that is just going through the motions

after yesterday's game I felt let down - we need a culture change, big time

It's the result of free agency. Every year, the Skins have to re-learn their roles on this team. The team signs a big name free agent and he comes in expecting to fill the same role he had on his previous team.

I know the offense is so bad this year because all of the free agents and rookies we added to it.

OH, WAIT! We added one FA and he was here three years ago. The offense was left virtually untouched and it is playing like it did at the end of 2008!

Exactly my point. In fact the offense has been playing this way for the last 10 years. Who have we drafted on the offense in the last ten years? IMO they are the core and all have become great team players. Portis and Moss...not so much

markshark84 wrote:

mastdark81 wrote:

SnyderSucks wrote:

MEZZSKIN wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:Just watched Campbell's post game ... "up till today I have had a pretty good year". He said this twice in the presser.

Jason ..... Helllllooooow Jason .... you scored 9 points against the Rams. You lost to the Lions, and barely got past the Bucs (they missed 2 FGs), and your team is averaging 14 points a game with three of those games against the worst teams in the NFL.

You haven't been having a pretty good year Jason. That you think you have been is as much a part of the problem as anything.

Did he really say that?????? wow whats wrong with him?...At some point does he understand NOBODY CARES ABOUT PROGRESS THIS PROGRESS THAT
its abouts wins and Points for a QB in his 5th year....
He doesnt get it and probably never will. He is what he is

Just out of curiousity, does Campbell get any credit for the two 50 plus TD passes, or do those not count because they weren't from the 20-49 yard range?

And yes, Campbell was bad yesterday.

The pass to ey was a redzone score points, points, points, points!

OK, so JC has one redzone TD in four games --- 3 of which were against bottom 5 defensive teams. How many points did Cutler put up on Detriot? Like 50. The Bucs D averaged 30+ points against per game (and it would have been more had the Giants not pulled Eli for Carr AND the Giants not run the ball over 50 TIMES to run out the clock).

You are grasping at straws here. Big deal.

Okay, Cutler had 140 yards passing against Detroit. I'm thinking, maybe, perhaps, he didn't score 48 all by himself.

SnyderSucks wrote:

markshark84 wrote:

mastdark81 wrote:

SnyderSucks wrote:

MEZZSKIN wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:Just watched Campbell's post game ... "up till today I have had a pretty good year". He said this twice in the presser.

Jason ..... Helllllooooow Jason .... you scored 9 points against the Rams. You lost to the Lions, and barely got past the Bucs (they missed 2 FGs), and your team is averaging 14 points a game with three of those games against the worst teams in the NFL.

You haven't been having a pretty good year Jason. That you think you have been is as much a part of the problem as anything.

Did he really say that?????? wow whats wrong with him?...At some point does he understand NOBODY CARES ABOUT PROGRESS THIS PROGRESS THAT
its abouts wins and Points for a QB in his 5th year....
He doesnt get it and probably never will. He is what he is

Just out of curiousity, does Campbell get any credit for the two 50 plus TD passes, or do those not count because they weren't from the 20-49 yard range?

And yes, Campbell was bad yesterday.

The pass to ey was a redzone score points, points, points, points!

OK, so JC has one redzone TD in four games --- 3 of which were against bottom 5 defensive teams. How many points did Cutler put up on Detriot? Like 50. The Bucs D averaged 30+ points against per game (and it would have been more had the Giants not pulled Eli for Carr AND the Giants not run the ball over 50 TIMES to run out the clock).

You are grasping at straws here. Big deal.

Okay, Cutler had 140 yards passing against Detroit. I'm thinking, maybe, perhaps, he didn't score 48 all by himself.

SHHHHH! He's the best qb ever. Stop it. Its so funny how much worse he is with the bears. While kyle orton looks like god in Denver, where they have a GOOD LINE and GOOD RECEIVERS. Cutler had no idea what he was getting himself into. If he was on the skins he'd suck too. Should have stayed in Denver... They make friggin Kyle Orton look good.

brad7686 wrote:SHHHHH! He's the best qb ever. Stop it. Its so funny how much worse he is with the bears. While kyle orton looks like god in Denver, where they have a GOOD LINE and GOOD RECEIVERS. Cutler had no idea what he was getting himself into. If he was on the skins he'd suck too. Should have stayed in Denver... They make friggin Kyle Orton look good.

He isn't worse with the Bears! He is asked to play a different role, but let's compare anyway. Culter's Bears are avaerage 26.2 PPG, he has 8 TDs, 5 pics, and has been sacked 8 times. JC's Skins are averaging 14 ppg, he has 5 TDs, 5 pics, and has been sacked 8 times. Orton's Broncos are averaging 19.8 ppg, he has 5 TDs, 0 pics, and has been sacked 6 times.

So Orton who clearly has the best group of WR and has faced the least amount od preasure has throw the same number of TDs as Campbell and three less than Cutler!

Cutlers WR aren't as good as the Skins and neither is their TE and the OL doesn't seam to be that much batter, yet he has scored more than Campbell.

Yeah, he would REALLY SUCK here!

I would love to see how well he would do in this offense. It would really be nice to have a QB that will look at more than one or two guys and would force the D to respect the pass. That would open up things for CP. But we will never know, because DS actually showed some restraint and didn't over Pay for a player.

Heck, I would like to see Orton here, he would be an improvement. Go down the list od starting QBs and find 10 guys that JC is clearly better than.

If you don't know what you are talking about don't post.

skinsfan#33 wrote:

brad7686 wrote:SHHHHH! He's the best qb ever. Stop it. Its so funny how much worse he is with the bears. While kyle orton looks like god in Denver, where they have a GOOD LINE and GOOD RECEIVERS. Cutler had no idea what he was getting himself into. If he was on the skins he'd suck too. Should have stayed in Denver... They make friggin Kyle Orton look good.

He isn't worse with the Bears! He is asked to play a different role, but let's compare anyway. Culter's Bears are avaerage 26.2 PPG, he has 8 TDs, 5 pics, and has been sacked 8 times. JC's Skins are averaging 14 ppg, he has 5 TDs, 5 pics, and has been sacked 8 times. Orton's Broncos are averaging 19.8 ppg, he has 5 TDs, 0 pics, and has been sacked 6 times.

So Orton who clearly has the best group of WR and has faced the least amount od preasure has throw the same number of TDs as Campbell and three less than Cutler!

Cutlers WR aren't as good as the Skins and neither is their TE and the OL doesn't seam to be that much batter, yet he has scored more than Campbell.

Yeah, he would REALLY SUCK here!

I would love to see how well he would do in this offense. It would really be nice to have a QB that will look at more than one or two guys and would force the D to respect the pass. That would open up things for CP. But we will never know, because DS actually showed some restraint and didn't over Pay for a player.

Heck, I would like to see Orton here, he would be an improvement. Go down the list od starting QBs and find 10 guys that JC is clearly better than.

If you don't know what you are talking about don't post.

I agree that Cutler is an upgrade over Campbell, but sometimes you have to look behind the numbers. Like that against Detroit, Cutler's two touchdown passes came on drives that started at the Detroit 35 and the Detroit 8.

As for the 10, let's go: (no particular order)

1) Russell
2) Everyone in Cleveland
3) Delhomme
4) Stafford, rookie
5) Sanchez, rookie
6) Bulger
7) Everyone in Tampa
Trent Edwards
9) Matt Cassell
10) Shaun Hill
11) Orton
12) Everyone in Tennessee

I gave you a couple of extra because there are a couple of those are rookies who are obviously developing.

As for your point about only looking at two receivers, please. They have different leading receivers each week, and last week he hit 10 different guys. The coach just had a press conference where he said Campbell is going through his reads too quickly, not that he was only looking at one or two guys.

No one on here is saying Campbell is playing great, but when people say he is the worst, it's pure hyperbole and undermines your argument. It also undermines the argument when people say things that are demonstrably false, like he only looks at one guy. He's middle of the pack, one of the teams problems has been QB play, but it's not like the team is Minnesotta where the rest of the team is Super Bowl caliber and was being held back by the QB.

SnyderSucks wrote:
I agree that Cutler is an upgrade over Campbell, but sometimes you have to look behind the numbers. Like that against Detroit, Cutler's two touchdown passes came on drives that started at the Detroit 35 and the Detroit 8.

As for the 10, let's go: (no particular order)

1) Russell
2) Everyone in Cleveland
3) Delhomme
4) Stafford, rookie
5) Sanchez, rookie
6) Bulger
7) Everyone in Tampa
Trent Edwards
9) Matt Cassell
10) Shaun Hill
11) Orton
12) Everyone in Tennessee

I gave you a couple of extra because there are a couple of those are rookies who are obviously developing.

As for your point about only looking at two receivers, please. They have different leading receivers each week, and last week he hit 10 different guys. The coach just had a press conference where he said Campbell is going through his reads too quickly, not that he was only looking at one or two guys.

No one on here is saying Campbell is playing great, but when people say he is the worst, it's pure hyperbole and undermines your argument. It also undermines the argument when people say things that are demonstrably false, like he only looks at one guy. He's middle of the pack, one of the teams problems has been QB play, but it's not like the team is Minnesotta where the rest of the team is Super Bowl caliber and was being held back by the QB.

Just as that is your opinion, in my opinion Sanchez, Stafford, Edwards, Cassell, Anderson, and Orton are better than JC. In terms of Orton, not only did Denver chose Orton over Campbell, they even took a lower first round pick and Orton over a higher first rounder and JC. And yes, I would take all 6 of them over JC. I wouldn't put him in middle of the pack. I wouldn't put him at dead last either. I would put him in the bottom 7, though.

And in term of JC making slow progressions, that is not even something to debate. The fact that he hit 10 different receivers against one of te worst defenses in the league doesn't mean that he goes through his progressions. It is very difficult to come to that conclusion when we have no idea who the #1, 2, or 3 guys were on any particular play. Also, after 4 games this year, there are only 3 players with double digit catches -- meaning there are only 3 guys that average 2.5 catches or more per game.

skinsfan#33 wrote:

brad7686 wrote:SHHHHH! He's the best qb ever. Stop it. Its so funny how much worse he is with the bears. While kyle orton looks like god in Denver, where they have a GOOD LINE and GOOD RECEIVERS. Cutler had no idea what he was getting himself into. If he was on the skins he'd suck too. Should have stayed in Denver... They make friggin Kyle Orton look good.

He isn't worse with the Bears! He is asked to play a different role, but let's compare anyway. Culter's Bears are avaerage 26.2 PPG, he has 8 TDs, 5 pics, and has been sacked 8 times. JC's Skins are averaging 14 ppg, he has 5 TDs, 5 pics, and has been sacked 8 times. Orton's Broncos are averaging 19.8 ppg, he has 5 TDs, 0 pics, and has been sacked 6 times.

So Orton who clearly has the best group of WR and has faced the least amount od preasure has throw the same number of TDs as Campbell and three less than Cutler!

Cutlers WR aren't as good as the Skins and neither is their TE and the OL doesn't seam to be that much batter, yet he has scored more than Campbell.

Yeah, he would REALLY SUCK here!

I would love to see how well he would do in this offense. It would really be nice to have a QB that will look at more than one or two guys and would force the D to respect the pass. That would open up things for CP. But we will never know, because DS actually showed some restraint and didn't over Pay for a player.

Heck, I would like to see Orton here, he would be an improvement. Go down the list od starting QBs and find 10 guys that JC is clearly better than.

If you don't know what you are talking about don't post.

He hasn't been asked to play a different role. If anything, Forte is the one getting screwed. Also, I notice how you conveniently left out that Campbell and Orton have more passing yards. I can tell you that you DEFINITELY don't want Orton here. You obviously haven't watched him on the bears or even much of him with the broncos, where he actually has good players around him, and still makes terrible throws. He is pathetic. If they had any reasonable qb they would score 40 a game. They'd be much better if they still had Cutler. Unfortunately Cutler has gotten himself into a situ where he isn't surrounded by much. But its his own doing. Instead of being middle of the pack in yards he'd probly be top 5 right now. Which just further proves my point that it does help if the qb is surrounded by good players.

SnyderSucks wrote:As for the 10, let's go: (no particular order)

1) Russell
2) Everyone in Cleveland
3) Delhomme
4) Stafford, rookie
5) Sanchez, rookie
6) Bulger
7) Everyone in Tampa
Trent Edwards
9) Matt Cassell
10) Shaun Hill
11) Orton
12) Everyone in Tennessee

I gave you a couple of extra because there are a couple of those are rookies who are obviously developing.

I said clearly worse. 1, 2, and 7 are the only ones that fit that bill. 2,6, and 8-12 are better than JC. The others are a push.
I don't think you could 50 out of a 100 people to agree that 7 out of that list are CLEARLY better than JC and you might have a hard time finding more 15-20 that would agree with that list.

Other than Russel there isn't anyone on that list that would deffinately make this team worse!

1) Russell
2) Everyone in Cleveland
3) Delhomme
4) Stafford, rookie
5) Sanchez, rookie
6) Bulger
7) Everyone in Tampa
Trent Edwards
9) Matt Cassell
10) Shaun Hill
11) Orton
12) Everyone in Tennessee

This list is nonsense. Out of the list that you posted I would gladly take Stafford, Sanchez, Cassell, Edwards, Orton, and Shaun Hill over JC. At least when Stafford and Sanchez make mistakes you can make the argument that they are rookies and still developing. What excuse does JC have?

brad7686 wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:

brad7686 wrote:SHHHHH! He's the best qb ever. Stop it. Its so funny how much worse he is with the bears. While kyle orton looks like god in Denver, where they have a GOOD LINE and GOOD RECEIVERS. Cutler had no idea what he was getting himself into. If he was on the skins he'd suck too. Should have stayed in Denver... They make friggin Kyle Orton look good.

He isn't worse with the Bears! He is asked to play a different role, but let's compare anyway. Culter's Bears are avaerage 26.2 PPG, he has 8 TDs, 5 pics, and has been sacked 8 times. JC's Skins are averaging 14 ppg, he has 5 TDs, 5 pics, and has been sacked 8 times. Orton's Broncos are averaging 19.8 ppg, he has 5 TDs, 0 pics, and has been sacked 6 times.

So Orton who clearly has the best group of WR and has faced the least amount od preasure has throw the same number of TDs as Campbell and three less than Cutler!

Cutlers WR aren't as good as the Skins and neither is their TE and the OL doesn't seam to be that much batter, yet he has scored more than Campbell.

Yeah, he would REALLY SUCK here!

I would love to see how well he would do in this offense. It would really be nice to have a QB that will look at more than one or two guys and would force the D to respect the pass. That would open up things for CP. But we will never know, because DS actually showed some restraint and didn't over Pay for a player.

Heck, I would like to see Orton here, he would be an improvement. Go down the list od starting QBs and find 10 guys that JC is clearly better than.

If you don't know what you are talking about don't post.

He hasn't been asked to play a different role. If anything, Forte is the one getting screwed. Also, I notice how you conveniently left out that Campbell and Orton have more passing yards. I can tell you that you DEFINITELY don't want Orton here. You obviously haven't watched him on the bears or even much of him with the broncos, where he actually has good players around him, and still makes terrible throws. He is pathetic. If they had any reasonable qb they would score 40 a game. They'd be much better if they still had Cutler. Unfortunately Cutler has gotten himself into a situ where he isn't surrounded by much. But its his own doing. Instead of being middle of the pack in yards he'd probly be top 5 right now. Which just further proves my point that it does help if the qb is surrounded by good players.

Who cares about passing yards?? It's painfully clear that both Orton and Cutler are better qb's than JC. Not only are they averaging more points than JC, but more importantly, their teams are 4-0 and 3-1.

I wouldn't say its painfully clear that orton is better. Was Trent Dilfer better than the rest of the league just because the ravens won a lot of games? You should actually watch kyle orton before you call for him here. Watch him when he was on the bears, who are comparable to the redskins. The broncos aren't really comparable as far as line and receivers go.

Orton

YEAR TEAM G CMP ATT PCT YDS AVG TD LNG NT RAT
2005 CHI 15 190 368 51.6 1869 5.1 9 54 13 59.7
2007 CHI 3 43 80 53.8 478 6.0 3 55 2 73.9
2008 CHI 15 272 465 58.5 2972 6.4 18 65 12 79.6
2009 DEN 4 69 117 59.0 906 7.7 5 87 0 97.7
Career 37 574 1030 55.7 6225 6.0 35 87 27 74.1

Campbell

YEAR TEAM G CMP ATT PCT YDS AVG TD LNG INT RAT
2006 WAS 7 110 207 53.1 1297 6.3 10 66 6 76.5
2007 WAS 13 250 417 60.0 2700 6.5 12 54 11 77.6
2008 WAS 16 315 506 62.3 3245 6.4 13 67 6 84.3
2009 WAS 4 81 124 65.3 963 7.8 5 59 5 85.5
Career 40 756 1254 60.3 8205 6.5 40 67 28 80.9

So Campbell was clearly better the last two years. The big difference? Completion percentage. You guys think JC misses passes, wait till you watch orton. He looks like Helen Keller out there sometimes. This year however, he has a better rating. I wonder what changed? His team maybe? I realize you hate JC, but to say Orton is better is just ignorant.

brad7686 wrote:I wouldn't say its painfully clear that orton is better. Was Trent Dilfer better than the rest of the league just because the ravens won a lot of games? You should actually watch kyle orton before you call for him here. Watch him when he was on the bears, who are comparable to the redskins. .

Orton is better than JC. The only reason is that he is a winner. He wins wherever he plays. I'm from Chicago, I watched his games. It wasn't pretty, his skills were not as good as JC's but he won games with an average line, no running game and average receivers. The guy wins games...period.

With that said, would I want him on our team? No. I don't want either player on my team.

CanesSkins26 wrote:Who cares about passing yards?? It's painfully clear that both Orton and Cutler are better qb's than JC. Not only are they averaging more points than JC, but more importantly, their teams are 4-0 and 3-1.

You don't think the Broncos defense having given up a total of 26 points has something to do with them being 4-0?

chiefhog44 wrote:

brad7686 wrote:I wouldn't say its painfully clear that orton is better. Was Trent Dilfer better than the rest of the league just because the ravens won a lot of games? You should actually watch kyle orton before you call for him here. Watch him when he was on the bears, who are comparable to the redskins. .

Orton is better than JC. The only reason is that he is a winner. He wins wherever he plays. I'm from Chicago, I watched his games. It wasn't pretty, his skills were not as good as JC's but he won games with an average line, no running game and average receivers. The guy wins games...period.

With that said, would I want him on our team? No. I don't want either player on my team.

How many rings does Orton has? Bears didn't bust a grape with Orton. SuperBowl run and playoff appearances came from DEFENSE and Devin Hester. No one feared Orton as no one fears Campbell. It is really difficult to judge quarterbacks that are in different systems and have different teammates.

brad7686 wrote:I wouldn't say its painfully clear that orton is better. Was Trent Dilfer better than the rest of the league just because the ravens won a lot of games?

I realize you hate JC, but to say Orton is better is just ignorant.

First off, I must say that I have been agreeing more and more with your posts recently. With that said, the Trent Dilfer thing is more of the exception than the rule. Over the past 2 decades, there have only been 2 super bowl champions that didn't have a good/great QB (and I am giving you Brad Johnson in 2003).

And while I am sure that you think I have this huge hatred towards JC, I don't. But, your second statement is a little extreme. While the difference between Orton and JC is marginal, Orton has proven to be a better QB than JC. While I agree that I wouldn't want either of them, I am not sure that I can say it is "ignorant" to say Orton is worse than JC. This season Orton hasn't thrown an interception (with the same amount of TD passes as JC). Also he threw more TDs in Chicago than JC did with worse receivers. The passing yard differential is by about 50 yards, which is a push.

PulpExposure wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:Who cares about passing yards?? It's painfully clear that both Orton and Cutler are better qb's than JC. Not only are they averaging more points than JC, but more importantly, their teams are 4-0 and 3-1.

You don't think the Broncos defense having given up a total of 26 points has something to do with them being 4-0?

Yea and our defense is 5th in the NFL in points allowed. Yet we are still 2-2, lost to the Lions, and had to squeak by the Rams (27th in the NFL in points allowed and 32nd in points scored) and the Bucs (25th in points allowed and 28th in scoring offense). I mean we bet the Rams by 3 freakin points, yet they are DEAD LAST in the NFL in points scored, averaging 6 points again.

Lets look how the Rams and Bucs have done so far this year...

Rams
0-28 L Seattle
7-9 L Skins
17-37 L Green Bay
0-35 L San Fran

Every other team that has played the Rams has beaten them by margins of 28, 20, and 35 points. In their three other games they have given up at least 4 td's, yet we couldn't even manage one and barely beat them. A 2 point win over the Rams is an embarrassment.

Bucs
21-34 L Dallas
20-33 L Buffalo
0-24 L NY Giants
13-16 L Skins

Again, their closest margin of defeat before playing us was 13 points. We, once again, barely pull out a win against an awful team.

I find it very difficult to believe that both the Rams and Bucs somehow "came to play" only when they played us. Anybody that is deluding themselves into thinking that we aren't terrible right now has lost all touch with reality. Christ, it's week 5 of the season and we are already bringing in an "offensive consultant" to help with the specific part of the team that Zorn was hired to improved. All in all, the Skins are a joke right now.

Why does almost every thread turn into a JC thread?

JC is becoming a favourite scapegoat for the multitude of problems that we have.

Yes, he is a goner and I feel for the guy because he is a great individual personally but the Team needs a lot more help than a good QB.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:Who cares about passing yards?? It's painfully clear that both Orton and Cutler are better qb's than JC. Not only are they averaging more points than JC, but more importantly, their teams are 4-0 and 3-1.

You don't think the Broncos defense having given up a total of 26 points has something to do with them being 4-0?

Yea and our defense is 5th in the NFL in points allowed. Yet we are still 2-2, lost to the Lions, and had to squeak by the Rams (27th in the NFL in points allowed and 32nd in points scored) and the Bucs (25th in points allowed and 28th in scoring offense). I mean we bet the Rams by 3 freakin points, yet they are DEAD LAST in the NFL in points scored, averaging 6 points again.

I know all of this. But the 5th ranked defense (ours) has allowed an average of 15.5 points per game. The Broncos have allowed 6.5. If our defense had allowed only 6.5 points per game, we'd be undefeated. Even with this horrific offense.

Plain and simple. Kyle Orton has little to do with their record; it's the defense.

I find it very difficult to believe that both the Rams and Bucs somehow "came to play" only when they played us. Anybody that is deluding themselves into thinking that we aren't terrible right now has lost all touch with reality.

Oh I completely agree with that "came to play" garbage. In fact, I've always found it funny to hear people say that. Well, that and blaming refs.

markshark84 wrote:

brad7686 wrote:I wouldn't say its painfully clear that orton is better. Was Trent Dilfer better than the rest of the league just because the ravens won a lot of games?

I realize you hate JC, but to say Orton is better is just ignorant.

First off, I must say that I have been agreeing more and more with your posts recently. With that said, the Trent Dilfer thing is more of the exception than the rule. Over the past 2 decades, there have only been 2 super bowl champions that didn't have a good/great QB (and I am giving you Brad Johnson in 2003).

And while I am sure that you think I have this huge hatred towards JC, I don't. But, your second statement is a little extreme. While the difference between Orton and JC is marginal, Orton has proven to be a better QB than JC. While I agree that I wouldn't want either of them, I am not sure that I can say it is "ignorant" to say Orton is worse than JC. This season Orton hasn't thrown an interception (with the same amount of TD passes as JC). Also he threw more TDs in Chicago than JC did with worse receivers. The passing yard differential is by about 50 yards, which is a push.

I don't think its ignorant to say you prefer Orton, I just think its ignorant to say he's clearly the better of the two. They are both average, and Campbell has better numbers historically.

brad7686 wrote:

markshark84 wrote:

brad7686 wrote:I wouldn't say its painfully clear that orton is better. Was Trent Dilfer better than the rest of the league just because the ravens won a lot of games?

I realize you hate JC, but to say Orton is better is just ignorant.

First off, I must say that I have been agreeing more and more with your posts recently. With that said, the Trent Dilfer thing is more of the exception than the rule. Over the past 2 decades, there have only been 2 super bowl champions that didn't have a good/great QB (and I am giving you Brad Johnson in 2003).

And while I am sure that you think I have this huge hatred towards JC, I don't. But, your second statement is a little extreme. While the difference between Orton and JC is marginal, Orton has proven to be a better QB than JC. While I agree that I wouldn't want either of them, I am not sure that I can say it is "ignorant" to say Orton is worse than JC. This season Orton hasn't thrown an interception (with the same amount of TD passes as JC). Also he threw more TDs in Chicago than JC did with worse receivers. The passing yard differential is by about 50 yards, which is a push.

I don't think its ignorant to say you prefer Orton, I just think its ignorant to say he's clearly the better of the two. They are both average, and Campbell has better numbers historically.

But, Orton is 25-12 as a starter. JC is 17-22.....and the stats are fairly close.

mastdark81 wrote:

chiefhog44 wrote:

brad7686 wrote:I wouldn't say its painfully clear that orton is better. Was Trent Dilfer better than the rest of the league just because the ravens won a lot of games? You should actually watch kyle orton before you call for him here. Watch him when he was on the bears, who are comparable to the redskins. .

Orton is better than JC. The only reason is that he is a winner. He wins wherever he plays. I'm from Chicago, I watched his games. It wasn't pretty, his skills were not as good as JC's but he won games with an average line, no running game and average receivers. The guy wins games...period.

With that said, would I want him on our team? No. I don't want either player on my team.

How many rings does Orton has? Bears didn't bust a grape with Orton. SuperBowl run and playoff appearances came from DEFENSE and Devin Hester. No one feared Orton as no one fears Campbell. It is really difficult to judge quarterbacks that are in different systems and have different teammates.

Right. As I said...I don't want either one. The biggest difference is that teams win when Orton is starting and Skins do not when Campbell is starting. End of conversation. Our defense is as good as theirs was when he was playing...in fact rated higher I believe. Whatever, I don't care enough to continue. We're splitting hairs.