NO SUCH THING AS "GIBBS GUY"

Talk about the Washington Football Team here. Do you bleed burgundy and gold?
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myu
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NO SUCH THING AS "GIBBS GUY"

Post by myu »

A good player is a good player. Period.

The Dallas Cowboys and Bill Parcells. He decided to bring in Vinny Testaverde and Keyshawn Johnson, two players that they really didn't need but Parcells wanted as one of his guys. I don't really know who wanted Eddie George, but I can't fault them for that since they did need a running back.

Steve Spurrier. He wanted Jacquez Green, Shane Matthews, Danny Wuerrfel, Trung Canidate (sacrificing Stephen Davis), etc. We all know what happened there, but luckily Spurrier did draft Patrick Ramsey (which shocked a lot of people at the time) and got Snyder to bring in Laveranues Coles. These two displayed something awesome in the Redskins season opener of Spurrier's second season. The connection between the two against the Jets was uncanny, and through the rest of the season, there were sparks and glimpses of what looked to be the future of the franchise. Coles had a Pro Bowl year, and despite Ramsey getting raped in subsequent games, it seemed as though the Redskins had finally found their franchise quarterback at long last. Until..

Joe Gibbs. We needed a running back, so we got Clinton Portis. No doubt about it, this was a solid pickup (though we lost a 2nd round draft pick). Then we got.. Mark Brunell? Why!? Just because Gibbs prefers veterans? Then we got.. James Thrash? Why!? Both of these guys we lost draft picks. It is true that Thrash has performed well this season on special teams, but I can't help but think that if McCants was the #3 receiver, we would have had done at least a little bit better offensively. Special teams helps, but I'll take a good offense over good special teams play anyday.

I guess my point is this.. I don't give a crap if the player is YOUR kind of guy or HIS kind of guy or whatever. Ramsey should've stayed at quarterback and McCants should have at least been activated for every game this season. It wasn't as if they sucked it up last year and were the weak links of the team. Now things are screwed up this year and people are wondering if we need a new quarterback and a new stud wide receiver, not to mention we have an offensive line that leaves much to be desired.

Bill Parcells and Joe Gibbs should've used free agency to fill the holes on their teams, not just replace competent guys with "their" kind of guys. Joe Gibbs, specifically, since I'm a Redskins fan.

The moral of the story is..

IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT.
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Post by Scottskins »

I disagree in principal. Randy Moss is probably the best WR in the NFL, and he will go on to break most WR records. Would I want him on the Redskins? Not a chance. He's not a complete WR. He's great at catching the ball, but he does just about everything else wrong. Joe wants guys who go all out, all the time.

As to Ramsey and Brunell, Joe wants a QB who won't make mistakes and will do enough to win. Turns out Mark wasn't that guy. Ramsey is IMO, but he's still got some issues to work out. Joe was hoping he could work them out of him on the practice field, but we don't have that luxury now.

Thrash vs McCants. I believe the main reason we've been so bad for so long is that we've had notoriously bad kickers and special teams since Joe left. Winning the field position game WILL win you most games. Thrash is extremely important to us in that regard. If that means McCants can't dress, then so be it IMO.

Yes people are wondering about the QB, but that's to be expected when your 3-7. I haven't seen anything where people want to replace Coles. Mebbe bench him because he's not healthy, but those people just want him healthy.

Everything is going according to plan for Gibbs except for the win loss record. By this time next season this will all be a distant memory, and we'll be talking playoffs. I know it sucks having such a poor record, but if you get past that, this team is much improved and really playing pretty well for a team with sooo many injuries. We played the Eagles pretty tough for 70% of the game. We are on the way back, have faith in the B&G!!!!
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Post by murfdawg »

I'm sorry I have to disagree. The redskins defense has been much improved and hung in with the eagles for 70% of the game. The Offense doesn't have a clue. As long as Joe and company play not to lose they/we will lose. Joe never played not to lose during his first stint with the skins/superbowl years. How does Patrick Ramsey progress if you have him on a short leash. The game plan was so bland and predictable, I have never felt so discouraged in my tenure as a redskins fan.

Can anyone justify this? And please don't tell me about the smart decisions, manage the ball game, don't lose it for us crap. That is what is what all QB's are supposed to do. That's what McNabb, Manning, Culpepper, Farve, Brady, Rothelingsberger, etc.... all do. But in order to do that you have to let the QB play and see how he reacts during the game. I understand practice, but the game is different from practice. Offense just need to play and not worry about what happens. If they haven't figured is out we are 3-7 we have nothing to lose.
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Post by redskinz4ever »

murfdawg wrote:I'm sorry I have to disagree. The redskins defense has been much improved and hung in with the eagles for 70% of the game. The Offense doesn't have a clue. As long as Joe and company play not to lose they/we will lose. Joe never played not to lose during his first stint with the skins/superbowl years. How does Patrick Ramsey progress if you have him on a short leash. The game plan was so bland and predictable, I have never felt so discouraged in my tenure as a redskins fan.

Can anyone justify this? And please don't tell me about the smart decisions, manage the ball game, don't lose it for us crap. That is what is what all QB's are supposed to do. That's what McNabb, Manning, Culpepper, Farve, Brady, Rothelingsberger, etc.... all do. But in order to do that you have to let the QB play and see how he reacts during the game. I understand practice, but the game is different from practice. Offense just need to play and not worry about what happens. If they haven't figured is out we are 3-7 we have nothing to lose.
very good post ...and i agree with you 100% :up: :up:
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Post by redskins56 »

murfdawg wrote:I'm sorry I have to disagree. The redskins defense has been much improved and hung in with the eagles for 70% of the game. The Offense doesn't have a clue. As long as Joe and company play not to lose they/we will lose. Joe never played not to lose during his first stint with the skins/superbowl years. How does Patrick Ramsey progress if you have him on a short leash. The game plan was so bland and predictable, I have never felt so discouraged in my tenure as a redskins fan.

Can anyone justify this? And please don't tell me about the smart decisions, manage the ball game, don't lose it for us crap. That is what is what all QB's are supposed to do. That's what McNabb, Manning, Culpepper, Farve, Brady, Rothelingsberger, etc.... all do. But in order to do that you have to let the QB play and see how he reacts during the game. I understand practice, but the game is different from practice. Offense just need to play and not worry about what happens. If they haven't figured is out we are 3-7 we have nothing to lose.


I agree with most of what you said, but I have a gripe. McNabb doesn't just manage the game, he is asked to win it. The Eagles don't run the ball well, and while their ground game had a decent showing yesterday, McNabb had to make plays or they woudn't have won. He changes games with his feet and mobility, and his big-arm and pocket presence make him one of the game's best at the QB position.
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Post by General Failure »

redskins56 wrote:I agree with most of what you said, but I have a gripe. McNabb doesn't just manage the game, he is asked to win it. The Eagles don't run the ball well


There's a difference between not running the ball well and not calling a lot of running plays. Westbrook is averaging 4.8 yards per carry, Levens is averaging 4.2. Reno Mahe, with all of his 10 carries this year, is averaging 4.8 per carry as well. Combined they only have a total of 186 carries. That's less carries than 8 runningbacks around the league have on their own.
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Post by myu »

Scottskins wrote:I disagree in principal. Randy Moss is probably the best WR in the NFL, and he will go on to break most WR records. Would I want him on the Redskins? Not a chance. He's not a complete WR. He's great at catching the ball, but he does just about everything else wrong. Joe wants guys who go all out, all the time.


I'm starting to think that if the Redskins already had Randy Moss on their team, Joe Gibbs (or Steve Spurrier or Marty Schottenheimer) would've let him go and replaced him just because Moss wasn't "one of their guys".

As to Ramsey and Brunell, Joe wants a QB who won't make mistakes and will do enough to win. Turns out Mark wasn't that guy. Ramsey is IMO, but he's still got some issues to work out. Joe was hoping he could work them out of him on the practice field, but we don't have that luxury now.

Thrash vs McCants. I believe the main reason we've been so bad for so long is that we've had notoriously bad kickers and special teams since Joe left. Winning the field position game WILL win you most games. Thrash is extremely important to us in that regard. If that means McCants can't dress, then so be it IMO.


Of course field position helps you win games, but in the tradeoff between a possession receiver who proved to be lethal last season, especially inside the red zone versus SOMETIMES downing the ball inside the 20 instead of around the 25-yard line, which would you rather have? James Thrash isn't going to down it at the 1-yard line every punt and kick-off.

Yes people are wondering about the QB, but that's to be expected when your 3-7. I haven't seen anything where people want to replace Coles. Mebbe bench him because he's not healthy, but those people just want him healthy.


There are people saying the wide receivers for the Redskins are overrated and suggesting we draft Mike Williams..

Everything is going according to plan for Gibbs except for the win loss record. By this time next season this will all be a distant memory, and we'll be talking playoffs. I know it sucks having such a poor record, but if you get past that, this team is much improved and really playing pretty well for a team with sooo many injuries. We played the Eagles pretty tough for 70% of the game. We are on the way back, have faith in the B&G!!!!


I'm sorry, but this is NOT according to plan! If you're telling me this is exactly how Gibbs planned it and he's satisfied with the results (except for the win-loss record), then he needs to be fired! Our offense has completely been abyssmal (worse than under Spurrier), Ramsey's growth has been stunted, Brunell just raped the Redskins for another several million dollars, and there are just as many false start penalties as last year PLUS illegal motions and formations!

I hope you're right about next season, but I just hope you realize this team isn't as much improved (aside from defense) as you'd like to think..
Last edited by myu on Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by JansenFan »

myu wrote:
Scottskins wrote:I disagree in principal. Randy Moss is probably the best WR in the NFL, and he will go on to break most WR records. Would I want him on the Redskins? Not a chance. He's not a complete WR. He's great at catching the ball, but he does just about everything else wrong. Joe wants guys who go all out, all the time.


I'm starting to think that if the Redskins already had Randy Moss on their team, Joe Gibbs (or Steve Spurrier or Marty Schottenheimer) would've let him go and replaced him just because Moss wasn't "one of their guys".

As to Ramsey and Brunell, Joe wants a QB who won't make mistakes and will do enough to win. Turns out Mark wasn't that guy. Ramsey is IMO, but he's still got some issues to work out. Joe was hoping he could work them out of him on the practice field, but we don't have that luxury now.

Thrash vs McCants. I believe the main reason we've been so bad for so long is that we've had notoriously bad kickers and special teams since Joe left. Winning the field position game WILL win you most games. Thrash is extremely important to us in that regard. If that means McCants can't dress, then so be it IMO.


Of course field position helps you win games, but in the tradeoff between a possession receiver who proved to be lethal last season and downing the ball inside the 20 sometimes versus having the guy tackled around the 25-yard line, which would you rather have? James Thrash isn't going to down it at the 1-yard line every punt and kick-off.

Yes people are wondering about the QB, but that's to be expected when your 3-7. I haven't seen anything where people want to replace Coles. Mebbe bench him because he's not healthy, but those people just want him healthy.


There are people saying the wide receivers for the Redskins are overrated and suggesting we draft Mike Williams..

Everything is going according to plan for Gibbs except for the win loss record. By this time next season this will all be a distant memory, and we'll be talking playoffs. I know it sucks having such a poor record, but if you get past that, this team is much improved and really playing pretty well for a team with sooo many injuries. We played the Eagles pretty tough for 70% of the game. We are on the way back, have faith in the B&G!!!!


I'm sorry, but this is NOT according to plan! If you're telling me this is exactly how Gibbs planned it and he's satisfied with the results (except for the win-loss record), then he needs to be fired! Our offense has completely been abyssmal, Ramsey's growth has been stunted, Brunell just raped the Redskins for another several million dollars, and there are just as many false start penalties as last year PLUS illegal motions and formations!

I hope you're right about next season, but I just hope you realize this team isn't as much improved (aside from defense) as you'd like to think..


How many super bowl rings does Randy Moss have again?
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Post by myu »

JansenFan wrote:How many super bowl rings does Randy Moss have again?


I don't think the number of rings has anything to do with how good a player is. Dan Marino.
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Post by JansenFan »

So would you rather have Dan Marino throwing to Randy Moss, but forego any super bowl wins?

That's my point. Gibbs gets blue collar guys who play there guts out. That is a Joe Gibbs guy. Those are the players we won championships with. There's a reason that in all of Coach Gibb's tenure, he only had one hall of famer (so far anyway).

Talent wins games, but teams win championships. Ask the Patriots.

Haven't we learned anything from the "Snyder Era".
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Post by myu »

JansenFan wrote:So would you rather have Dan Marino throwing to Randy Moss, but forego any super bowl wins?

That's my point. Gibbs gets blue collar guys who play there guts out. That is a Joe Gibbs guy. Those are the players we won championships with. There's a reason that in all of Coach Gibb's tenure, he only had one hall of famer (so far anyway).

Talent wins games, but teams win championships. Ask the Patriots.

Haven't we learned anything from the "Snyder Era".


Yeah, I'm sure the addition of Mark Brunell really is going to lead us to the Super Bowl. I'm sure glad we follow the system of the Patriots, going out and paying $43 million for a guy who's starting to suck (we had no idea that he would suck this bad, though). :roll:

And I don't really understand what you're trying to tell me. My whole original post was intended on the fact that we shouldn't have been going out and getting random free agents.
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Post by JansenFan »

Besides Barrow and Brunell, who was a bad free agent pickup? Washington is a force, Griffin ha been our best defender, Springs held TO to two catches, Raymer took the starting center job, Tupa has been outstanding. We made smart personnel moves for the most part. We brought in lunch pail guys who fit the Gibbs mold. Those are the 'Joe Gibbs guys' I am talking about. We brought in up-and-comers this time around. These same guys will be here next season, some of the dead weight will be gone and more Joe Gibbs guys will be brought in to replace them. We certainly don't look like the Patriots right now, but we will soon. Be patient my friend.
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Post by welch »

My whole original post was intended on the fact that we shouldn't have been going out and getting random free agents.


That's not how I read your original post. JansenFan responded just as I would have: there are Gibbs-style players. They are strong-character guys, strong team guys. With coaching, they win.

Gibbs does not pick guys for whimsy, or because they were pals. All but one or two of his favorite players retired five years ago, or longer.

Gibbs is looking for Thrash-like players at all positions, players who play above their skills, and do it especially when there is a big game. Would he have dropped Randy Moss? I don't know. He and Petibon made a better player out of Wilbur Marshall, who came from Buddy Ryans's Bears defense with a lot of speed and not much in-game discipline.

Gibbs worked with Dexter Manley as long as possible, but then cut him. Period.

Gibbs players? look at the Hogs, at Ernest Byner, at Art Monk, at the anonymous undrafted FA LB's. At Charles Mann. At Darrell Green, who was not just as fast CB. At Doug Williams and Mark Rypien: nobody's predicted SB hero QB's.
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