Monk better than Irvin

[tcwest10]

What else, then, can we use ? You reject every angle on every debate, Patrick. You said LaVar was overrated and living on his college career. I bring Henson into it (who was selected by the Cowboys despite never having played a down of NFL Football and only one really good year in college) as a better example of that charge, and you reject it out of hand without necessarily proving your point.
You say Irvin was better. You don't want me to bring up his character issues, so I turn to stats. You reject those, as well.
All this leads me to believe that there's no end here. Eventually, your circular logic becomes Smack material. I just don't time for this.
When you're ready to go head to head with me on Irvin vs. Monk, just PM me or something.
This is getting a little tedious, if I may be allowed to say so.

[Redskin in Canada]

There has to be a sense of integrity and respect for great players among all fans, even fans from opposing teams.

Art Monk was a great player and he has been a class act throughout his life.

If he is not elected to the Hall of Fame, that will not speak of him. It will speak poorly of the political bias of those voting.

There is a HOF for players, there are no Hall of Fames for good overall people. Irving probably deserves to be in the HOF but nothing else. The difference between Irving and Monk is that Art Monk is both a true HOF and a person of great character and integrity.

If the NFL is not able to see through this, they would be sending the wrong message to youth all over the world.

[tcwest10]

See, RIC...that's the debate I was hoping to avoid. If the HOF were interested in character at all, LT would not be in.
Nobody wants to get into who was "classier". Monk should be inducted based on his numbers alone.
Were he playing under another coach, his numbers might've been more significant. Joe asked him to get first downs and to take the hard routes over the middle, where smaller receivers go to die. He sacrificed his legacy for the sake of playing within the system.
That's just a tragedy.

[Redskin in Canada]

See, RIC...that's the debate I was hoping to avoid. If the HOF were interested in character at all, LT would not be in.

Nothing wrong with the HOF based on numbers alone. And for that reason, Irving should go in with LT.

But how can Irving go ahead of Monk???!!!

Even if the stats are in favour of Monk, they played in very DIFFERENT systems.

He sacrificed his legacy for the sake of playing within the system. That's just a tragedy.

No, I beg to disagree. That is not a tragedy, on the contrary. He contributed selflessly to make his TEAM better.

Gary Clark would never had the career that he had next to Irving! Art was able to attract the best coverage, the most difficut routes, and even double coverage, which allowed our H-Backs and other receivers to fluorish.

The worth of Art Monk should not be taken into consideration through stats alone, as good as they are.

As for the issue of being a good overall person, I will never ever hold that against anybody. If the NFL wishes to send the wrong messages they might as well do. Modern Sports spoil athletes in the worst possible way. But I am convinced that the NFL also has a responsibility to judge character and not only stats (as great as they are) when making their choices.[/quote]

[HEROHAMO]

Thank you Tc for speaking the truth.The stats dont lie cowpies.

[tcwest10]

Let me complete that train of thought, which I guess I left hanging.
"That's just a tragedy, if the Hall holds his selflessness against him." (And I don't mean to say that he should be judged on some supposed "potential", either. The numbers are hard and fast; Monk should've gone in downhill on roller skates, first ballot.) You shouldn't have to be a loudmouth "look-at-me!" type to make it in. It's the whole Kirby Puckett-Don Mattingly argument, though. In the case of Cooperstown, when the numbers match up evenly, the final criteria becomes "Who drew the most attention to himself ?" and "Who was most media-accessible ?"
Now, that is tragic.

[kkryan]

Irvin doesnt even belong in the HOF. He got most of his catches by pushing off...an illegal tactic!!

[tcwest10]

I won't go that far. I just know that Monk belongs in there, and it shouldn't be unthinkable to mention him in the top ten all time recievers.

[DallasCowboysFan]

Art Monk Facts

-From Pro Football Reference.com
*Among The Leagues all time Top 50 Receivers
#5 in Receptions (Irvin- #13)
#9 in Receiving Yards (Irvin-#11)
#29(t) in Receiving TDs (Irvin-#34(t) )
#26 in Yards From Scrimmage (Irvin-#31)

-11 Seasons with at least 16 starts (Irvin-7)
-224 Total Games Played (Irvin-159)
-63 Yards Rushing for 332 yards (5.3 avg.) (Irvin-6 Rushes, 6 yards, 1.0 avg. (See ? Different type of receiver.)

16 seasons compared to 12 seasons is really comparing apples to oranges....Notice the difference of 8 in receptions but only the difference of two in yards? Like I said Monk definitely deserves in, this year, next year, whatever, he should be in by now. My point is going to be that Irvin shouldn't get bumped for Monk! All these numbers were also taken from pro-football-reference and I have them in an excel spreadsheet, pm your email address and I will send it to you. My attempt here is the rebuttal for TC and the overall record.

Irvin played 65 less games but has higher averages in every category. Receptions per game...Monk has 4.20, Irvin has 4.72. Yards per game...Monk has 56.79 yards, Irvin has 74.87 yards per game. Average yards per reception...Monk has 13.53 Y/R, Irvin has 15.87 Y/R. TD's per game...Monk has a .30, Irvin has .41 TD's per game played.

To compare games played I took Irvins average in every category and the lowest. The average receptions of 4.72 times 65 more games would be 307 more receptions. 74.87 yards per game times 65 more games would be 4866 more yards. .41 TD's times 65 more games would be 27 more TD's. To put that in perspective Irvin would have 1057 Receptions, 16,770 Yards and 92 TD's in the same amount of games as Monk.

I know, I know your gonna say his average would have dropped. So I took his lowest stats available. The last year he played he only had 10 Receptions for 167 Yards in 4 games, his lowest TD's was 1 in 1998 with 16 games. So these are the numbers used.

65 more games times 1.67 receptions per game would be 109 more receptions. 65 games times 41.75 yards per game (lowest he had) would equal 2714 more yards. 65 more games times .0625 TD's and he would have 4 more TD's. That totals out to 859 Receptions, 14, 618 yards and 69 TD's.

Compare that to Monk and I still say Irvin has the better numbers. The only reason he is higher in the all time was his longevity! Look at the Averages and Irvin Rules! That is why he deserves to be a first ballot! Monk deserves to be in as well but not at the expense of Irvin. If both can go this year, great but Irvin should go first! Oh, for everyone talking character, if that was an issue LT wouldn't be in. The bar has set and it can't be changed now!

[patrickg68]

"Irvin doesnt even belong in the HOF. He got most of his catches by pushing off...an illegal tactic!!"

I guess there shouldn't be any running backs in the hall of fame because you could probably call holding on every single play.

[reggiebrooks4life]

filthy liars!!!

[reggiebrooks4life]

who is michael irvin???

[DallasCowboysFan]

"Irvin doesnt even belong in the HOF. He got most of his catches by pushing off...an illegal tactic!!"

I guess there shouldn't be any running backs in the hall of fame because you could probably call holding on every single play.

The refs gave him a free ride because he was Irvin! I sure don't remember penalties on all those catches?

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

Michael Irvin going in before Monk?..Hell, Irvin wasn't
even better than James Lofton in my opinion..but that's
another topic.

[DallasCowboysFan]

Michael Irvin going in before Monk?..Hell, Irvin wasn't
even better than James Lofton in my opinion..but that's
another topic.

I guess we'll see.....you obviously can't see the stats!

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

Michael Irvin going in before Monk?..Hell, Irvin wasn't
even better than James Lofton in my opinion..but that's
another topic.

I guess we'll see.....you obviously can't see the stats!

Lofton's stats are better..check them out..friend.

[tcwest10]

First of all, DCF...Welcome aboard. I enjoy reading something from somebody who takes the time to impress me, which you did. (I had to edit the name from the first post.)
At the same time, though...the Hall isn't going to do the math like that, any more then they're going to hold the two men together and say, "Hmmm...which was the better citizen ?"
I will say this, though. Those numbers are impressive, and hard to argue. Still...Monk was the guy who had to make a good portion of those numbers over the middle. They used him like a tight end, and he bore the brunt of the defending linebacker more often than not. Monk belongs in Canton. My view on Irvin cannot change until the prototype for Rice and others has taken his rightful place among the greats. I wonder what a canvass of current members would turn up if the question of Monk going in was put to them ?
I already know what the selectors think, but they are all members of the media...a group regularly shunned by #81.

[DallasCowboysFan]

Michael Irvin going in before Monk?..Hell, Irvin wasn't
even better than James Lofton in my opinion..but that's
another topic.

I guess we'll see.....you obviously can't see the stats!

Lofton's stats are better..check them out..friend.

The stats I posted genius! I could care less about Lofton since he's already in the HOF.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

Excuse me..the point I was trying to prove "WAS" that Irvin was not better than Lofton..much less MONK.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

Art Monk Facts

-From Pro Football Reference.com
*Among The Leagues all time Top 50 Receivers
#5 in Receptions (Irvin- #13)
#9 in Receiving Yards (Irvin-#11)
#29(t) in Receiving TDs (Irvin-#34(t) )
#26 in Yards From Scrimmage (Irvin-#31)

-11 Seasons with at least 16 starts (Irvin-7)
-224 Total Games Played (Irvin-159)
-63 Yards Rushing for 332 yards (5.3 avg.) (Irvin-6 Rushes, 6 yards, 1.0 avg. (See ? Different type of receiver.)

16 seasons compared to 12 seasons is really comparing apples to oranges....Notice the difference of 8 in receptions but only the difference of two in yards? Like I said Monk definitely deserves in, this year, next year, whatever, he should be in by now. My point is going to be that Irvin shouldn't get bumped for Monk! All these numbers were also taken from pro-football-reference and I have them in an excel spreadsheet, pm your email address and I will send it to you. My attempt here is the rebuttal for TC and the overall record.

Irvin played 65 less games but has higher averages in every category. Receptions per game...Monk has 4.20, Irvin has 4.72. Yards per game...Monk has 56.79 yards, Irvin has 74.87 yards per game. Average yards per reception...Monk has 13.53 Y/R, Irvin has 15.87 Y/R. TD's per game...Monk has a .30, Irvin has .41 TD's per game played.

To compare games played I took Irvins average in every category and the lowest. The average receptions of 4.72 times 65 more games would be 307 more receptions. 74.87 yards per game times 65 more games would be 4866 more yards. .41 TD's times 65 more games would be 27 more TD's. To put that in perspective Irvin would have 1057 Receptions, 16,770 Yards and 92 TD's in the same amount of games as Monk.

I know, I know your gonna say his average would have dropped. So I took his lowest stats available. The last year he played he only had 10 Receptions for 167 Yards in 4 games, his lowest TD's was 1 in 1998 with 16 games. So these are the numbers used.

65 more games times 1.67 receptions per game would be 109 more receptions. 65 games times 41.75 yards per game (lowest he had) would equal 2714 more yards. 65 more games times .0625 TD's and he would have 4 more TD's. That totals out to 859 Receptions, 14, 618 yards and 69 TD's.

Compare that to Monk and I still say Irvin has the better numbers. The only reason he is higher in the all time was his longevity! Look at the Averages and Irvin Rules! That is why he deserves to be a first ballot! Monk deserves to be in as well but not at the expense of Irvin. If both can go this year, great but Irvin should go first! Oh, for everyone talking character, if that was an issue LT wouldn't be in. The bar has set and it can't be changed now!

Irvin was a great wr but i'll give you something to consider:
Unlike the COWBOYS..the Skins during Monk's tenure spread the ball around quite a bit. Just think how great Monk's numbers would be if there was no Gary Clark or Ricky Sanders?
Just something to consider.

[welch]

you obviously can't see the stats!

I don't think that stats matter much outside of fantasy leagues.
On the whole, Monk and Irvin were much alike on the field.

I saw Monk a lot, and saw Irvin somewhat less. Monk seemed to have equal or better speed, better hands, better running after a catch, and better blocking skills.

The Redskins and Cowboys ran different offenses, so the two players were used slightly differently. Teams threw more and ran up more yardage in the '90s; the numbers don't allow a simple comparison.

Beyond the similar numbers, it is interesting that Monk was the main receiver in Washington from his rookie year until the day that Joe Gibbs retired. His three Super Bowls covered the beginning, middle, and end of that. Consistency.

(Note that Monk didn't play in SB17, but the Redskins might not have made it to the playoffs without him. He was half the offense until he broke a toe at the end of the regular season.)

Monk first.

[tcwest10]

Well, geez Welch. Thanks for finally coming in to help out around here. Where you been ? Broke your typing hand ?

[HEROHAMO]

Cowboys fans no where to be found.Humm I wonder if that Greenbay game has anything to do with that?

[DallasCowboysFan]

Excuse me..the point I was trying to prove "WAS" that Irvin was not better than Lofton..much less MONK.

Ok, I am confused...your comparing Irvin to a WR better than Monk? Once again go look at some stats Lofton has over 14,000 yards.

Irvin was a great wr but i'll give you something to consider:
Unlike the COWBOYS..the Skins during Monk's tenure spread the ball around quite a bit. Just think how great Monk's numbers would be if there was no Gary Clark or Ricky Sanders?
Just something to consider.

Irvin 1988 Yr 1
RB's 110 Receptions, 931 Yards
Other WR's 125 Receptions, 1758 Yards (2 WR's had more Rec than Irvin)
TE's 39 Receptions, 382 Yards
Total 274 Receptions, 3071 Yards

Monk 1980 Yr 1
RB's 139 Receptions, 1402 Yards
Other WR's 44 Receptions, 533 Yards (Monk had 58 Rec)
TE's 41 Receptions, 411 Yards
Total 224 Receptions, 2346 Yards (-50 less Rec)

Irvin 1989 Yr 2 (Irvin had 26 Rec)
RB's 82 Receptions, 763 Yards
Other WR's 115 Receptions, 1617 Yards (Martin had 46)
TE's 34 Receptions, 312 Yards (Folsom had 28 )
Total 231 Receptions, 2692 Yards

Monk 1981 Yr 2
RB's 148 Receptions, 1421 Yards
Other WR's 59 Receptions, 972 Yards (Monk had 56 Rec)
TE's 43 Receptions, 460 Yards
Total 250 Receptions, 2853 Yards (+19 More Rec)

Irvin 1990 Yr 3 (Irvin had 20 Rec)
RB's 71 Receptions, 661 Yards
Other WR's 91 Receptions, 1034 Yards (Martin had 64 Rec)
TE's 72 Receptions, 790 Yards (Novacek had 59 Rec)
Total 234 Receptions, 2485 Yards

Monk 1982 Yr 3
RB's 44 Receptions, 345 Yards
Other WR's 39 Receptions, 850 Yards (Monk had 35 Rec)
TE's 41 Receptions, 412 Yards
Total 124 Receptions, 1607 Yards (-110 Less Receptions)

Irvin 1991 Yr 4 (Irvin had 93 Receptions)
RB's 85 Receptions, 550 Yards
Other WR's 46 Receptions, 739 Yards
TE's 64 Receptions, 721 Yards
Total 195 Receptions, 2010 Yards

Monk 1983 Yr 4
RB's 79 Receptions, 855 Yards
Other WR's 106 Receptions, 1618 Yards (Monk had 47 Rec)
TE's 46 Receptions, 546 Yards
Total 231 Receptions, 3019 Yards (+36 More Receptions)

Irvin 1992 Yr 5 (Irvin had 78 Rec)
RB's 97 Receptions, 610 Yards
Other WR's 67 Receptions, 921 Yards
TE's 68 Receptions, 630 Yards
Total 232 Receptions, 2161 Yards

Monk 1984 Yr 5
RB's 46 Receptions, 282 Yards
Other WR's 80 Receptions, 1163 Yards (Monk had 106 Rec)
TE's 53 Receptions, 594 Yards
Total 179 Receptions, 2039 Yards (-53 Less Receptions)

Irvin 1993 YR 6 (Irvin had 88 Receptions)
RB's 126 Receptions, 884 Yards
Other WR's 114 Receptions, 1727 Yards
TE's 45 Receptions, 449 Yards
Total 285 Receptions, 3060 Yards

Monk 1985 Yr 6
RB's 52 Receptions, 388 Yards
Other WR's 84 Receptions, 1070 Yards (Monk had 91 Receptions)
TE's 57 Receptions, 604 Yards
Total 193 Receptions, 2062 Yards (-92 Less Receptions)

Irvin 1994 Yr 7 (Irvin had 79 Receptions)
RB's 105 Receptions, 715 Yards
Other WR's 106 Receptions, 1714 Yards
TE's 47 Receptions, 475 Yards
Total 258 Receptions, 2904 Yards

Monk 1986 Yr 7
RB's 57 Receptions, 583 Yards
Other WR's 88 Receptions, 1551 Yards (Monk had 73 Receptions)
TE's 57 Receptions, 900 Yards
Total 202 Receptions, 3034 Yards (-56 Less Receptions)

Irvin 1995 Yr 8 (Irvin had 111 Receptions)
RB's 95 Receptions, 651 Yards
Other WR's 55 Receptions, 819 Yards
TE's 69 Receptions, 758 Yards
Total 219 Receptions, 2228 Yards

Monk 1987 Yr 8
RB's 53 Receptions, 540 Yards
Other WR's 109 Receptions, 2140 Yards (Monk had 38 Rec)
TE's 39 Receptions, 457 Yards
Total 201 Receptions, 3137 Yards

Irvin 1996 Yr 9 (Irvin had 64 Receptions)
RB's 102 Receptions, 657 Yards
Other WR's 55 Receptions, 745 Yards
TE's 49 Receptions, 405 Yards
Total 206 Receptions, 1807 Yards

Monk 1988 Yr 9
RB's 68 Receptions, 623 Yards
Other WR's 137 Receptions, 2088 Yards (Monk had 72 Rec)
TE's 48 Receptions, 672 Yards
Total 253 Receptions, 3383 Yards (47 More Receptions)

Irvin 1997 Yr 10 (Irvin had 75 Receptions)
RB's 93 Receptions, 708 Yards
Other WR's 81 Receptions, 1002 Yards
TE's 65 Receptions, 564 Yards
Total 239 Receptions, 2274 Yards

Monk 1989 Yr 10
RB's 69 Receptions, 590 Yards
Other WR's 159 Receptions, 2367 Yards
TE's 23 Receptions, 333 Yards
Total 251 Receptions, 3290 Yards (12 More Receptions)

Irvin 1998 Yr 11
RB's 69 Receptions, 405 Yards
Other WR's 94 Receptions, 1590 Yards
TE's 35 Receptions, 394 Yards
Total 198 Receptions, 2389 Yards

Monk 1990 Yr 11
RB's 66 Receptions, 592 Yards
Other WR's 137 Receptions, 1908 Yards
TE's 30 Receptions, 341 Yards
Total 233 Receptions, 2841 Yards (35 more Receptions)

Irvin 1999 Yr 12 (Irvin had 10 Rec)
Played 4 Games, won't include but if you want to see.
RB's 74 Receptions, 420 Yards
Other WR's 157 Receptions, 2189 Yards
TE's 50 Receptions, 478 Yards
Total 281 Receptions, 3087 Yards

Monk 1991 Yr 12
RB's 51 Receptions, 494 Yards
Other WR's 118 Receptions, 1944 Yards (Monk had 71 Rec)
TE's 21 Receptions, 284 Yards
Total 190 Receptions, 2722 Yards (Unfair to compare)

Monk 1992 Yr 13
RB's 75 Receptions, 625 Yards
Other WR's 118 Receptions, 1639 Yards (Monk had 46 Rec)
TE's 33 Receptions, 431 Yards
Total 226 Receptions, 2695 Yards

Monk 1993 Yr 14
RB's 84 Receptions, 660 Yards
Other WR's 120 Receptions, 1424 Yards (Monk had 41 Rec)
TE's 40 Receptions, 267 Yards
Total 244 Receptions, 2351 Yards

Monk 1994 Yr 15
RB's 89 Receptions, 662 Yards
Other WR's 93 Receptions, 1142 Yards
TE's 81 Receptions, 931 Yards
Total 263 Receptions, 2735 Yards

Monk 1995 Yr 16
Monk played 3 games, won't include but if you want to see.
RB's 76 Receptions, 524 Yards
Other WR's 145 Receptions, 1732 Yards
TE's 31 Receptions, 295 Yards
Total 252 Receptions, 2551 Yards

Taking away Irvins and Monks last seasons where they played 4 and 3 games respectively.
The total receptions for each player were:

These are the teams Receptions Minus the Receiver:
Irvin 2571 Receptions /11 Seasons = 233.7 Receptions/Season
Monk 3264 Receptions/15 Seasons = 217.6 Receptions/Season

Irvin 2571 Receptions/159 Games = 16.2 Receptions Per Game
Monk 3264 Receptions/224 Games = 14.6 Receptions Per Game

No offense Warpath but you don't know what your talking about. I have considered what
you said, I have shown you the stats and you still don't want to view it without the
Burgundy Glasses.

[DallasCowboysFan]

Cowboys fans no where to be found.Humm I wonder if that Greenbay game has anything to do with that?

Look at the times I posted in the middle of that game, if you could call it a game?