The Smart thing to do with Cousins

[markshark84]

IF the 49ers want to trade that pick for Cousins I hope the Redskins do whatever it takes to make that happen ...

http://www.hogshaven.com/2017/1/21/1434 ... rk-cousins

UNBELIEVABLE ... no wonder that franchise is in such disarray - the pick next year will also be top 5 with both Cousins and Shanahan

You have been calling scenario first. Hopefully it goes down like you said.

Hate to break it to you but trade Cousins for SF's #2 overall would be as stupid as anything this franchise has ever done (well, except for the Haynesworth, Stubblefield, Deon.....) ok on second thought, perhaps one of the dumber things we have done. Why --- because Cousins is worth MUCH MORE. SF wouldn't HESITATE to give up their #2 for a PROVEN top 10 QB in the NFL that the HC has worked with before and believes in --- when they have a need at QB and there is no sure-fire candidates in the draft. In this way, SF would be essentially "drafting" Cousins with their #2.

Scot isn't that dumb --- in fact, I don't think there are any GMs that are. Cousins is worth 2 first rounders --- and high ones at that. Personally, I would sign him long term this year, but if we couldn't come to terms I wouldn't franchise him and actually keep him (since we'd essentially get nothing for him and he'd walk in 2018) --- instead I'd franchise him (exclusive) and do a sign and trade with the asking price being 2 first rounders. I think there may be difficulty in getting that price if it came down to it because the team getting him would have to jump through some hoops (resulting in diminished value), but that would be the plan.

This all being said, I like Allen's statement that Cousins will be here next year (in essence, saying that they will come to a long term deal since franchising him would be super dumb given the fact he'd 100% walk next year and we'd get nothing for him) --- but that very well could be talk or a negotiation tactic to raise the asking price.....

[SkinsJock]

IF we can get the #2 pick in this coming draft plus another 1st round pick (V likely a top 3 pick in 2018) from the 49ers, this FO will do it

This FO will try and put together a long term deal for Cousins but they are not giving him stupid money - lots, yes! but not stupid!

this franchise is still re-building and we have a lot of holes - the QB position is V important and Cousins can help us out but he's not that great, we can get better with or without him - we've never had guys managing this franchise that know what they're doing

if Cousins does not want to be here or wants too much money we should get what we can for him

[StorminMormon86]

The smart thing to do would be extend Gruden and re-sign Cousins to a long term deal. I don't understand why this is even up for debate at this point.

[SkinsJock]

The smart thing to do would be extend Gruden and re-sign Cousins to a long term deal. I don't understand why this is even up for debate at this point.

that's OK but I don't think that both get a long term deal, and of the 2, Cousins is more likely

[Deadskins]

The smart thing to do would be extend Gruden and re-sign Cousins to a long term deal. I don't understand why this is even up for debate at this point.

that's OK but I don't think that both get a long term deal, and of the 2, Cousins is more likely

Especially now that McVay is gone.

[riggofan]

IF we can get the #2 pick in this coming draft plus another 1st round pick (V likely a top 3 pick in 2018) from the 49ers, this FO will do it

I'm sure they would be tempted. Doesn't make it the right decision.

I'm all for building through the draft, but its still always a crap shoot. The Rams and Browns have had years of multiple first round picks. And I'd argue that 2016 showed McCloughan might be really good at what he does, but he's not infallible.

I'll take a QB we know can play and continue to build the team up around him.

[markshark84]

IF we can get the #2 pick in this coming draft plus another 1st round pick (V likely a top 3 pick in 2018) from the 49ers, this FO will do it

I'm sure they would be tempted. Doesn't make it the right decision.

I'm all for building through the draft, but its still always a crap shoot. The Rams and Browns have had years of multiple first round picks. And I'd argue that 2016 showed McCloughan might be really good at what he does, but he's not infallible.

I'll take a QB we know can play and continue to build the team up around him.

Agree. If I were the GM, I'm not taking 2 firsts for him. QBs are just too important and Kirk has proven himself. Yes, it would be VERY VERY VERY tempting --- but history has proven a teams fait without a QB. There is a reason top QBs always go in the top 5 --- because those are the teams without them!!!! I also agree that this past draft showed that Scot can have bad years. I am not writing him off, just that I don't think he is as fantastic, can't miss, as I once did. I also don't like how he is managing the Cousins negotiations.

And I also don't think SF's 1st rounder (if Cousins played there next season) in 2018 is close to a top 3 pick. Cousins carried this team to an 8-7-1 record. You take him off this squad, we are 5-11 or 4-12 (at best). SF had the 28th worst OFF last year, you put Kyle and Kirk on this team (and add weapons via FA as SF has TONS of cap room) and they are looking average. Kirk will also do something there similar to what he did here (with Kyle) --- keep his bottom 3 DEF off the field. With a top 10 QB and one of the best OFF minds in the game, they aren't going 2-14 again. NO WAY.

[Deadskins]

If I were the GM, I'm not taking 2 firsts for him. QBs are just too important and Kirk has proven himself. Yes, it would be VERY VERY VERY tempting --- but history has proven a teams fait without a QB.

You may not have that choice if we non-exclusive franchise tag him again. We would have to better the contract that the other team offered Kirk to retain his rights. It's when the decision is made on what type of franchise tag that the die is cast.

[SkinsJock]

I'm all for keeping Cousins and signing him to a long term deal but if the price is too high that would be a stupid mistake and these guys are not stupid like Dan Snyder is - we then have to put the tag on him to get something in return

it's not a choice - we keep him if we can sign him to a long term deal otherwise we get something (hopefully that #2 pick) for him

Cousins is a good QB and it would be better if we had him but he's not a big time, difference making, type QB - we can succeed without him

[SkinsJock]

IF we can get the #2 pick in this coming draft plus another 1st round pick (V likely a top 3 pick in 2018) from the 49ers, this FO will do it

I'm sure they would be tempted. Doesn't make it the right decision.
I'm all for building through the draft, but its still always a crap shoot. The Rams and Browns have had years of multiple first round picks. And I'd argue that 2016 showed McCloughan might be really good at what he does, but he's not infallible.
I'll take a QB we know can play and continue to build the team up around him.

Agree. If I were the GM, I'm not taking 2 firsts for him. QBs are just too important and Kirk has proven himself. Yes, it would be VERY VERY VERY tempting --- but history has proven a teams fait without a QB. There is a reason top QBs always go in the top 5 --- because those are the teams without them!!!! I also agree that this past draft showed that Scot can have bad years. I am not writing him off, just that I don't think he is as fantastic, can't miss, as I once did. I also don't like how he is managing the Cousins negotiations.

And I also don't think SF's 1st rounder (if Cousins played there next season) in 2018 is close to a top 3 pick. Cousins carried this team to an 8-7-1 record. You take him off this squad, we are 5-11 or 4-12 (at best). SF had the 28th worst OFF last year, you put Kyle and Kirk on this team (and add weapons via FA as SF has TONS of cap room) and they are looking average. Kirk will also do something there similar to what he did here (with Kyle) --- keep his bottom 3 DEF off the field. With a top 10 QB and one of the best OFF minds in the game, they aren't going 2-14 again. NO WAY.

JEEZ - stop with the Cousins is a top 10 QB BS - hopefully we have Cousins here but if not, I really hope we get that #2 pick
If Cousins had proven to be as good as some here think, he'd have a long term contract, no question

Kyle will find out that being a good OC is not a guarantee that you will be a good HC - and how come, all of a sudden, the 49ers are going to have a good team, talent wise - Cousins is NOT a difference maker type QB - he's proven that he can't get it done when the pressure is on

Joe Barry is suddenly going to make a defense great - why didn't he do that here? I thought our D was bad because of the DC

the Rams and the Browns do not have a clue what they are doing - don't give me that BS - our FO is not infallible but what they have done with what we were at the end of 2014 is AMAZING

[riggofan]

Yeah. We really knocked it out of the park last time we had the #2 pick.

[markshark84]

If I were the GM, I'm not taking 2 firsts for him. QBs are just too important and Kirk has proven himself. Yes, it would be VERY VERY VERY tempting --- but history has proven a teams fait without a QB.

You may not have that choice if we non-exclusive franchise tag him again. We would have to better the contract that the other team offered Kirk to retain his rights. It's when the decision is made on what type of franchise tag that the die is cast.

This is one of my issues with how the FO is dealing with the Cousins contract. I would have engaged Kirk less than 24 hours after the season ended and continued to so that I know where I stand. If we are close, you exclusive tag him. If not, you do the non-exclusive.

From what people are saying here, it doesn't appear negotiations have even begun......

[SkinsJock]

Yeah. We really knocked it out of the park last time we had the #2 pick.

when was that - 2015 or 2016? - Scot has only been here for 2 drafts

there's no way that you can make ANYONE (other than you maybe) think that Vinnie and Dan have any clue about draft picks

or

that Scot will not make better use of a top 5 draft pick than Vinnie and Dan

[SkinsJock]

it's obvious the FO does not think that Cousins is as great as he and many here think - they are not going to rush into a long term contract

[Deadskins]

This is one of my issues with how the FO is dealing with the Cousins contract. I would have engaged Kirk less than 24 hours after the season ended and continued to so that I know where I stand. If we are close, you exclusive tag him. If not, you do the non-exclusive.

From what people are saying here, it doesn't appear negotiations have even begun......

Are we even able to deal yet? I would think the league season would have to end first, before we are able to open negotiations.

[markshark84]

JEEZ - stop with the Cousins is a top 10 QB BS - hopefully we have Cousins here but if not, I really hope we get that #2 pick
If Cousins had proven to be as good as some here think, he'd have a long term contract, no question

Kyle will find out that being a good OC is not a guarantee that you will be a good HC - and how come, all of a sudden, the 49ers are going to have a good team, talent wise - Cousins is NOT a difference maker type QB - he's proven that he can't get it done when the pressure is on

Joe Barry is suddenly going to make a defense great - why didn't he do that here? I thought our D was bad because of the DC

the Rams and the Browns do not have a clue what they are doing - don't give me that BS - our FO is not infallible but what they have done with what we were at the end of 2014 is AMAZING

Cousins is top 10; that isn't even debatable...... unless you're a butt-hurt RGIII fan. Then I guess you guys can form a group and talk about it.

I also think your post above shows how much (or little) you understand the game and what is valued. Also shows how much (or little) you know about coordinators. And are you saying our D was bad because of Barry or not? I can't understand you ---- especially because you think our FO has been AMAZING, so it couldn't have been talent, right? right?

Speaking of AMAZING 2014 vs. 2016 ---- I'd stop looking at our record and actually do some analysis with respect to production:
- DEF: In 2014 our collective DEF effort was freakishly similar to 2016 (most would say 2016 was worse by a slim margin --- more yards, 1stDs (60+ more in 2016), TOP, YPP, points, there are many many more),
- Rush: our running game was freakishly similar to 2014 (most would 2016 was slight better by an extremely slim margin),
- ST: our ST were better in 2014 in every category except punt return avg. vs. 2016
- Avg. Field position: less than 2 yards difference
The only aspect of our team efforts that was significantly better vs. 2014 was our passing game: 700+ more yards, 7 more TDs, 6 less INTs, 1 full y/p avg., 40 more 1stD passing, collective QBR (the espn one, not the regular qb rating... ) was 30 points higher in 2016, Game winning drives, the list goes on..... The only thing unchanged was Cousins' sack %, which was 3.8% in 2014 vs. 3.7% in 2016.

So was it really "AMAZING"...... let's get real. While I do think Scot is good for the franchise (anything to get Danny boy less involved), the greatest thing our FO did was inherit Cousins. Gruden was the catalyst in starting him. If you take Cousins off this roster we are right back at 4-12. So is a player giving you 4.5 wins a season worth exchanging for 1 top 5 pick...... Many, that is the dumbest thing I have literally have heard on here in forever.... If you're a GM, your asking for more --- WAY more.

And just to put Cousins' value in perspective, the "value" of a win in the NFL is roughly $20M --- so his play this year was worth roughly $80-100M AT LEAST. Cousins was rated #1 on the team in total team value/contribution by Pro football reference, PFF, and every meaningful site. In fact, Cousins was rated #17 in the entire NFL in value and 5th among QBs (behind Ryan, Rodgers, Brees, and Luck) in 2016 by pro football reference. But yeah, he's not a difference maker. Then again, if he's not, no one on our roster is either.....

I don't even know why I bother. I don't think you'll ever get it.

[markshark84]

This is one of my issues with how the FO is dealing with the Cousins contract. I would have engaged Kirk less than 24 hours after the season ended and continued to so that I know where I stand. If we are close, you exclusive tag him. If not, you do the non-exclusive.

From what people are saying here, it doesn't appear negotiations have even begun......

Are we even able to deal yet? I would think the league season would have to end first, before we are able to open negotiations.

Is that the way it works? I am not sure.

[Burgundy&GoldForever]

Cousins is top 10; that isn't even debatable...... unless you're a butt-hurt RGIII fan. Then I guess you guys can form a group and talk about it.

I also think your post above shows how much (or little) you understand the game and what is valued. Also shows how much (or little) you know about coordinators. And are you saying our D was bad because of Barry or not? I can't understand you ---- especially because you think our FO has been AMAZING, so it couldn't have been talent, right? right?

Speaking of AMAZING 2014 vs. 2016 ---- I'd stop looking at our record and actually do some analysis with respect to production:
- DEF: In 2014 our collective DEF effort was freakishly similar to 2016 (most would say 2016 was worse by a slim margin --- more yards, 1stDs (60+ more in 2016), TOP, YPP, points, there are many many more),
- Rush: our running game was freakishly similar to 2014 (most would 2016 was slight better by an extremely slim margin),
- ST: our ST were better in 2014 in every category except punt return avg. vs. 2016
- Avg. Field position: less than 2 yards difference
The only aspect of our team efforts that was significantly better vs. 2014 was our passing game: 700+ more yards, 7 more TDs, 6 less INTs, 1 full y/p avg., 40 more 1stD passing, collective QBR (the espn one, not the regular qb rating... ) was 30 points higher in 2016, Game winning drives, the list goes on..... The only thing unchanged was Cousins' sack %, which was 3.8% in 2014 vs. 3.7% in 2016.

So was it really "AMAZING"...... let's get real. While I do think Scot is good for the franchise (anything to get Danny boy less involved), the greatest thing our FO did was inherit Cousins. Gruden was the catalyst in starting him. If you take Cousins off this roster we are right back at 4-12. So is a player giving you 4.5 wins a season worth exchanging for 1 top 5 pick...... Many, that is the dumbest thing I have literally have heard on here in forever.... If you're a GM, your asking for more --- WAY more.

And just to put Cousins' value in perspective, the "value" of a win in the NFL is roughly $20M --- so his play this year was worth roughly $80-100M AT LEAST. Cousins was rated #1 on the team in total team value/contribution by Pro football reference, PFF, and every meaningful site. In fact, Cousins was rated #17 in the entire NFL in value and 5th among QBs (behind Ryan, Rodgers, Brees, and Luck) in 2016 by pro football reference. But yeah, he's not a difference maker. Then again, if he's not, no one on our roster is either.....

I don't even know why I bother. I don't think you'll ever get it.

I'm not going to argue any of the above.

But, suppose we've seen the best of Kirk Cousins.

Suppose he's reached his ceiling.

Is he still worth $20MM+ a year if the best he's capable of is barely making or barely missing the playoffs?

You can blame the defense or the talent on the team but he's the one who makes some really poor decisions when the pressure is on to perform.

Frankly, if I were Scot McCloughan I think I'd have a number in mind.

If he doesn't agree to that number, take the two 1st round draft picks and move on.

He isn't good enough to be the highest paid QB in the league.

I don't give a damn what experts claim his market value is.

Market value is for winners.

He hasn't won a damn thing when it matters.

[SkinsJock]

BINGO - hold all the calls, we have a winner ...

thanks BG&F

[SkinsJock]

This is one of my issues with how the FO is dealing with the Cousins contract. I would have engaged Kirk less than 24 hours after the season ended and continued to so that I know where I stand. If we are close, you exclusive tag him. If not, you do the non-exclusive. From what people are saying here, it doesn't appear negotiations have even begun.

Are we even able to deal yet? I would think the league season would have to end first, before we are able to open negotiations.

Is that the way it works? I am not sure.

OH really! c'mon man - you're on top of everything .... well, some of it ....

[SkinsJock]

the only fans that think that Kirk Cousins is a top 10 QB are the butt-hurt kissing Cousins fans

Joe Barry was not the main problem with our defense. He was not a good DC but the biggest issue was the lack of talented players - we need to spend more on the defensive side of the ball

we should not give Cousins a stupid contract like some here want so we can spend money on all the team not just one QB that can find a way to have great stats but not find a way to help his team win games

This franchise at the end of 2014 was if not the worst in the NFL they were in the bottom 3

This FO has not been infallible but so far they've done well to win the NFC East in 2015 and almost make the playoffs in 2016 - they will not make a stupid deal just to keep a QB that is going to get a lot more than he's worth from the Redskins but not at the expense of adding everybody else we need

Cousins is worth a lot to us but he's not worth paying stupid money and our win loss record does not rest solely on having him at QB

I have been hoping that we will have Cousins at QB this season but if he doesn't agree to a reasonable $ contract I hope we can move on and start looking for a QB that can find a way to win not just put up great stats

[Burgundy&GoldForever]

the only fans that think that Kirk Cousins is a top 10 QB are the butt-hurt kissing Cousins fans

Cousins might be top 15 or even top 10 if you really manipulate the stats to make his case.

But all that really means is there are a lot of mediocre to bad quarterbacks starting in the NFL right now.

Twenty or more teams in the league would like to upgrade their starting quarterback.

There are really only about eight franchise quarterbacks in the league right now.

And several of those are on the plus side of 35.

So, if we're being fair, Cousins is worth the average of the top eight QB salaries in the league.

But he damn sure isn't worth the top QB salary in the league.

The problem is ... the average salary of the top eight QBs is $22.76 million.

The average of the top ten is marginally less.

So, let's say they choose not to pay Cousins.

And by some miracle they draft a bona fide starter.

In three years they'll be paying that player the same or more than they would have paid Cousins.

So, if they go that route they had better draft a real franchise QB.

The problem is there aren't many of those to go around.

Like virtually none.

So, it's a risk either way.

[riggofan]

the only fans that think that Kirk Cousins is a top 10 QB are the butt-hurt kissing Cousins fans

This guy still can't get over how painfully, embarrassingly wrong he was about Griffin. Just let it go, man. I did!

[DarthMonk]

Kirk Cousins has established a clear pattern.

He is a solid citizen - a hard worker.

He is dedicated to his craft and has gotten better every year.

I would be very surprised if he has peaked. There is zero evidence to that effect and a growing mountain of evidence that he will continue to improve.

[Irn-Bru]

Kirk Cousins has established a clear pattern.

He is a solid citizen - a hard worker.

He is dedicated to his craft and has gotten better every year.

I would be very surprised if he has peaked. There is zero evidence to that effect and a growing mountain of evidence that he will continue to improve.