If not Gruden then who...if not Cousins then who?

[Deadskins]

That wasn't the point I was making, though. I never said Gruden caused those faults, I just said he highlighted them to prove the point to the Danny. Your reach was trying to paint my posts as saying something they didn't.

You're right that Gruden didn't cause those faults, RGIII did. So there's no room for sabotage. RGIII was gifted the starting role when it should have been an open competition. He comes into the preseason game against Detroit and does the following:

1. Shows an inability to read the defense.
2. Shows an inability to adjust the offensive blocking to his interpretation of the defense.
3. Again, as he did in 2013 and 2014, showed an inability to feel direct pressure in his face. As he's over compensating for his gut instinct to break from the pocket.
4. He ended up concussed from his own ineptitude.

Jay didn't need to sabotage RGIII, Robert did it for him.

Now, I because I quote C00ley a lot. I will give your theory some credence. Chris stated that RGIII's inability to play the position would be more detrimental if he was the backup during the off-season. Why???? Because the backup is working with the younger players, the rookies. He theorized that it was never really a competition but that they made him the starter, so that Kirk (who can operate the offense easily) would work with them. Thus giving the evaluators/coaches a truer understanding of the progress the young players are making.

This goes back to what C00ley said last year. He often couldn't grade players cus RGIII broke the play so badly, it never formed. So maybe the answer is "both".

Again, not saying Gruden caused the weak parts or RGIII's game, just saying the play-calling highlighted it, just as the play-calling highlighted Cousins' good points.

Let's not forget the abysmal day/s that RGIII had during the practices with the Texans. It's about more than the preseason. He looked marginal all off-season. If you've followed ey's analysis, you'd know this.

I do know that. You're still not getting my point. Jay wanted Cousins. The Danny wanted RGIII. Jay needed to show the Danny that Kirk was the better choice. Are you going to do that in live games that count? No, you do it in pre-season. Maybe "sabotage" is the wrong word, but I couldn't think of anything else that fit better.

[Chris Luva Luva]

I do know that. You're still not getting my point. Jay wanted Cousins. The Danny wanted RGIII. Jay needed to show the Danny that Kirk was the better choice. Are you going to do that in live games that count? No, you do it in pre-season. Maybe "sabotage" is the wrong word, but I couldn't think of anything else that fit better.

I guess the word sabotage painted your intent in the wrong way from my perspective. If this is the case, then I think we agree to an extent.

[riggofan]

I do know that. You're still not getting my point. Jay wanted Cousins. The Danny wanted RGIII. Jay needed to show the Danny that Kirk was the better choice. Are you going to do that in live games that count? No, you do it in pre-season. Maybe "sabotage" is the wrong word, but I couldn't think of anything else that fit better.

I guess the word sabotage painted your intent in the wrong way from my perspective. If this is the case, then I think we agree to an extent.

Fair enough. It just seems like you were arguing that RG3 could be playing at the level Kirk is right now if only Gruden had done a better job with him and called the right plays or held his hand in film review or whatever. If I'm wrong on that, I apologize.

[StorminMormon86]

I do know that. You're still not getting my point. Jay wanted Cousins. The Danny wanted RGIII. Jay needed to show the Danny that Kirk was the better choice. Are you going to do that in live games that count? No, you do it in pre-season. Maybe "sabotage" is the wrong word, but I couldn't think of anything else that fit better.

Well that's certainly not sabotaging. That's definitely showing a stubborn owner that his prized QB is not worth starting another season.

But I still think they were calling plays Griffin needed work on in the preseason, solely to see if he could make any progress in them.

[Chris Luva Luva]

Fair enough. It just seems like you were arguing that RG3 could be playing at the level Kirk is right now if only Gruden had done a better job with him and called the right plays or held his hand in film review or whatever. If I'm wrong on that, I apologize.

Hell no! That's not my POV. I apologize if I articulated it that poorly, for it to come off that way.

IMHO RGIII is responsible for about 90% of what he's dealing with right now.

[Deadskins]

Fair enough. It just seems like you were arguing that RG3 could be playing at the level Kirk is right now if only Gruden had done a better job with him and called the right plays or held his hand in film review or whatever. If I'm wrong on that, I apologize.

Hell no! That's not my POV. I apologize if I articulated it that poorly, for it to come off that way.

IMHO RGIII is responsible for about 90% of what he's dealing with right now.

I think he was talking to me, even though your quote was at the end.

[riggofan]

Fair enough. It just seems like you were arguing that RG3 could be playing at the level Kirk is right now if only Gruden had done a better job with him and called the right plays or held his hand in film review or whatever. If I'm wrong on that, I apologize.

Hell no! That's not my POV. I apologize if I articulated it that poorly, for it to come off that way.

IMHO RGIII is responsible for about 90% of what he's dealing with right now.

I think he was talking to me, even though your quote was at the end.

Yeah sorry about the crazy quoting!

[Deadskins]

It just seems like you were arguing that RG3 could be playing at the level Kirk is right now if only Gruden had done a better job with him and called the right plays or held his hand in film review or whatever.

No, I wasn't trying to say that at all, which is why I was getting so frustrated that everyone was taking it that way.

[riggofan]

It just seems like you were arguing that RG3 could be playing at the level Kirk is right now if only Gruden had done a better job with him and called the right plays or held his hand in film review or whatever.

No, I wasn't trying to say that at all, which is why I was getting so frustrated that everyone was taking it that way.

Fortunately no blood was spilled.

[Deadskins]

It just seems like you were arguing that RG3 could be playing at the level Kirk is right now if only Gruden had done a better job with him and called the right plays or held his hand in film review or whatever.

No, I wasn't trying to say that at all, which is why I was getting so frustrated that everyone was taking it that way.

Fortunately no blood was spilled.

I was ready to shank some mofos.

[SkinsJock]

I used to think that given his passing ability and his speed, Griffin had a better chance with coaching to elevate his game - Kirk Cousins took full advantage of having better treatment by Gruden & overcame all of his issues with turnovers and inexperience to become a really good NFL QB

I doubt that even if Griffin had worked very hard, he would have become as good a QB as Cousins is ... but, we don't really know that, and those fans here that claim that Griffin cannot become an NFL QB are selling him short - I don't know that he can but he has shown some ability to play QB well in the NFL and I think that with the right coaching/help he can become an NFL QB and I do not think it has to be a read option type offense - we shall see



a few posters here like to twist posts around to mean something completely different than was intended

[markshark84]

Too funny that a thread referring to Gruden and Cousins ends up being about RGIII......

Um, re-read the title of the thread. It's not about Gruden and Cousins. It's about everyone but them.

A little salty I see.

It was a joke.

That said, I never tagged you for an excuse-maker. At the end of the day, RGIII wasn't as good as Cousins. Gruden saw that. It wasn't "sabotage" (or whatever word you want to call it) when Gruden called RGIII out or called plays that he actually needed to work on in a preseason game. RGIII is a big boy. He should be able to take it. And Gruden was right so I don't see why people even care.

And if Gruden was more attentive, instructional (which I am not saying) to one vs. the other --- who cares. If Cousins didn't perform this season, I doubt you would hear how Danny boy was more attentive to RGIII, creating issues with Gruden, and that is why Cousins failed. At the end of the day, life isn't fair. You have to play the hand you are dealt and do the best you can. If that means producing the week after your HC calls you out in the media or run a certain play, so be it --- be prepared next time and if that means doing it on your own, do it. There is no hand-holding in the real world.

RGIII's career was and is up to RGIII ---- just like everyone else on the planet..... not the HC, owner, GM, other players, etc.

As far as your power struggle between owner and coach. I think you are dead on right ---- however, RGIII was just as involved. He was the one that got the last HC fired due to his ego. He was the one that everyone knew was Danny's little pet. And he embraced the s&!^ out of it. He was just as involved in that as the owner and HC.

[Deadskins]

I've said all I need to on this subject. I'm not making any excuses for RGIII. I still think Gruden called plays differently for the two QBs, and that he set RGIII up to fail. I understand why he did it, and that it was probably his only option to win the power struggle. He bet his job on Kirk, and it paid off. I don't have any regrets about it.

[riggofan]

Kirk Cousins took full advantage of having better treatment by Gruden

Like I said. Don't have too reach too far.