If not Gruden then who...if not Cousins then who?

[SkinsJock]

I doubt that Griffin tried as hard as he could or worked as hard as he should at whatever he needed to do to become an NFL QB

one thing's for sure it's not Gruden's fault that Griffin did not fulfill his deal here but IMO Gruden did not work as hard at helping Griffin



I just don't get the hate that a few here have for Griffin - that's a really bad way to be - I will not forget you

[markshark84]

Too funny that a thread referring to Gruden and Cousins ends up being about RGIII......

At this point, I am not sure why any of this matters.... Cousins is the better QB. This has basically been proven a fact by now. At this point, we should be HAPPY that Gruden did or didn't do whatever anyone is suggesting --- because at the end of the day, GRUDEN WAS RIGHT.

As far as the comments that RGIII was screwed by Gruden in the preseason games by having him take longer drops or whatever --- isn't that what RGIII needed work on? Working on taking 3 and 5 steps drops and identifying WRs off progressions (how long he held the ball is on RGIII)? And shouldn't that be done in the preseason? Wouldn't that help get RGIII ready and see how much RGIII had improved in those areas? For Cousins, the same thing. He was forcing Cousins to make quick decisions and rolling out ---- things he wasn't as good at in the prior year. This isn't grade school football. You get practice in and then you see how it translates in the games. There shouldn't be training wheels on a going into 4th year QB.

At the end of the day, RGIII is no victim to Gruden. RGIII isn't as good as Cousins. Gruden gave RGIII chances to prove himself in games multiple times throughout 2014. Shanahan gave RGIII 13 games --- the majority of which RGIII was horrible in. RGIII didn't produce or develop. I have been told by my mentors over the years that my professional career is 99% up to me and that only I control my development. It's the same in football. It is up to any player to work hard, ask the right questions, solicit the right advice from the right people, ask for guidance when you don't know what to do, create lasting relationships, challenge yourself, etc. If RGIII didn't do that, that is on him, not his mentors. If he did, then perhaps he isn't good enough --- and that is the unfortunate reality of life. It happens all the time; I see it very often.

[SkinsJock]

no question RG3 did not do enough - there is a valid question about what or how Gruden did what he did to help Griffin was enough

hopefully Griffin goes to another franchise and then we may find out whether Gruden's estimation of Griffin was accurate or not

while here at the ranch, Gruden needs to find some of that offensive prowess he's yet to show here .... Cousins is ready to go, let's do it

H A I L

[riggofan]

He sabotaged him by calling him out in public last season. He sabotaged him by not giving him the hands on attention that he did with Kirk.

Boo hoo.

[StorminMormon86]

Look, I don't know how many times I have to say this. I'm not at all suggesting that RGIII is the better QB, or that he should be starting, or even suiting up as the backup. I'm not saying he didn't hurt himself by not being patient in coming back from injuries, or being able to protect himself when he was playing. I'm not saying he put in the mental work that Kirk obviously has to improve his game. I'm not even saying that RGIII should ever play another game in the NFL. I'm just stating the facts as I see them. You don't have to agree with me, it's just my opinion.

I have NEVER suggested any of this. I'm just genuinely curious how you can reach the conclusion that Gruden sabotaged Griffin and not the TEAM, other than being somehow still emotionally attached to Griffin because of 2012.

[Burgundy&GoldForever]

He sabotaged him by calling him out in public last season. He sabotaged him by not giving him the hands on attention that he did with Kirk. He sabotaged him by calling plays in the preseason that called for him to make deep drops on slowly developing plays when he knew the line wasn't up to providing that kind of protection at that point. You didn't notice that when Cousins came in, we suddenly switched to roll outs, and play action?

Calling out a player in public when it's already common knowledge the player is not performing up to expectations is not sabotage. Calling five and seven step drops for a quarterback who isn't very tall and almost has to roll out of the pocket, and who doesn't make quick decisions but is athletic and capable of scrambling is by design. They don't run that offense with Cousins because he is a pocket passer.

I'm not sure either one of these arguments holds up very well.

[Chris Luva Luva]

I just don't agree that Bob is "garbage," or that he can't learn to play the NFL style of QB, given time and the right coach.

I think you need to rewatch the games and listen to C00ley's film breakdowns. You don't come to the NFL to learn how to do basic functions, especially at the expense of the careers of your teammates. Sure, you can hone skills but this dude couldn't even get his drops correct.

Just yesterday, C00ley spoke of how angry the lockeroom was at RGIII because he made them look HORRIBLE and wasnt owning up to it. This past preseason, the players were leaking information about how RGIII was calling the wrong blocking schemes in the huddle. The coaches know it, the players know it. Yet you have RGIII going on and on at press conferences about how he needs more out of his teammates. He's a selfish player and shell of his former self.

While I agree he can succeed running ONE scheme... The ONE coach that employs a scheme he can run just got fired yesterday. The other coach in Ron Rivera has a potential MVP candidate at QB, a man who doesn't have injury problems. RGIII is done.

I'm just saying we havent seen him in 2015 to say one way or the other, those are facts. If you want to go with 13 passes in preseason then that's INSANE B/C Kirk's first 13 passes in preseason which included an interception was horrible too. He would never work with Jay and may not work nowhere else and that is my own opinion.

Nobody cares about completions in the preseason against vanilla defenses... You can simply tell from Kirks pocket presence, his ability to operate within the pocket, level of comfort within the pocket and Kirks ability to make his way through the route tree and find an open receiver, that he's LEAGUES better than RGIII as an NFL QB. This season proved it... Like I said above, listen to the film break downs... Listen to CHRIS C00LEY say that he can't even grade the rest of the offense because RGIII PLAYED SO POORLY. What more do you need to see? How many more coaches need to be fired before we say, it's RGIII that's the problem.

I've seen it happen often throughout the years, especially when they get paid!! Seen it in RG, seen it in Brad Johnson, seen it in Gus Frerotte after the deal. 1 year wonders. Nothing is guaranteed. But at the end of the day there is hope, we seem to moving in the right direction and that's all you can ask for.

Please. Just. Stop. Typing. That's utter nonsense. You're just saying stuff to say it at this point, not even considering the circumstances of the individual situation.

People forget...Griffin failed when HE GOT INJURED. Nobody was complaining prior to that vicious acl/mcl injury. As far as his intelligence in the pocket...it was expected because he did not have the reps at the position going back to a non traditional college offense he was in that he compared to Cousins, Tannehill, Wilson, Luck of that same QB 2012 class who were in pro offenses.

Griffin failed because:

- He wasn't studying enough. Mike Shanahan said it. Steve Young said it. And RGIII FINALLY came out and admitted this past offseason. That's on RGIII.
- He has zero pocket presence.
- As stated above, despite his uptick in studying... He was still giving the offensive line wrong instruction in the huddle WHICH LED TO HIM GETTING CONCUSSED.
- He has yet to finsish an entire season healthy.
- The lockeroom hated him, hence all the rumors coming out. That's per Chris C00ley.

But you know, none of that matters. LOL It's only coming from the mouth of NFL players and people in the know... Like a HOF QB, a SB winning HC and one of the most beloved players in Redskin history who has an intricate knowledge of the current playbook. They're all saying this kid can't do it, yet...some of you refuse to comprehend it. LOL

It's also a fact that RGIII won more games than Cousins, as the starter, every season (including 2014) until this year when he hasn't started

So it took Kirk less time to beat RGIII's high mark from 2012? That's impressive. LOL

I also find it equally "impressive" that Kirk has bested him without EVER having an off-season dedicated to him. WITHOUT ever having the playbook tailored for him. Kirk has bested RGIII without getting reps with the first time offense during the off-season.

So what would Kirk do, if he was truly treated as the #1 guy in the offseason and received the brunt of the focus? It wouldn't be a comparison and it's not.

[Deadskins]

He sabotaged him by calling him out in public last season. He sabotaged him by not giving him the hands on attention that he did with Kirk. He sabotaged him by calling plays in the preseason that called for him to make deep drops on slowly developing plays when he knew the line wasn't up to providing that kind of protection at that point. You didn't notice that when Cousins came in, we suddenly switched to roll outs, and play action?

Calling out a player in public when it's already common knowledge the player is not performing up to expectations is not sabotage. Calling five and seven step drops for a quarterback who isn't very tall and almost has to roll out of the pocket, and who doesn't make quick decisions but is athletic and capable of scrambling is by design. They don't run that offense with Cousins because he is a pocket passer.

I'm not sure either one of these arguments holds up very well.

It most certainly is sabotage, when you call the player out for specific failures like he did. We absolutely have designed rollouts for Cousins. I'm not talking about scrambling at all. Scrambling involves feeling pressure and leaving the pocket, something RGIII did much too often, and Kirk rarely does. I'm talking about bootlegs, and designed rollouts, which we do plenty if you watch the games.

[Deadskins]

Too funny that a thread referring to Gruden and Cousins ends up being about RGIII......

Um, re-read the title of the thread. It's not about Gruden and Cousins. It's about everyone but them.

[Deadskins]

He sabotaged him by calling him out in public last season. He sabotaged him by not giving him the hands on attention that he did with Kirk.

Boo hoo.

Very insightful. The question was asked, and I answered. I even said I agreed with the results, because it was the only way to get the Danny to relent. I don't know why you guys insist on making this out like I'm feeling bad about the way RGIII got treated. I said he brought a lot of it on himself. But I also think he got caught in the middle of a power struggle between the owner and the coach.

[Chris Luva Luva]

It most certainly is sabotage, when you call the player out for specific failures like he did. We absolutely have designed rollouts for Cousins. I'm not talking about scrambling at all. Scrambling involves feeling pressure and leaving the pocket, something RGIII did much too often, and Kirk rarely does. I'm talking about bootlegs, and designed rollouts, which we do plenty if you watch the games.

I don't think what Jay did was right, even though I understand why he did it. When we take into account the totality of the circumstances, it makes more sense but still isn't justifiable. On one hand, I feel RGIII deserved the humiliation. On the other hand, it made the organization look bad.

RGIII was doing the same things to his teammates. He was making them look bad on the field (according to ey), he was calling them out in his press conferences and he wasn't putting the work in. C00ley said yesterday or the day b4, that Jay was in danger of losing the locker room when this fiasco occurred... While it wasn't the best way to do it, I think in the heat of the moment he did what he felt he needed to do to protect his players. And also, to protect his integrity, pride and image moving forward.

[Deadskins]

I'm just genuinely curious how you can reach the conclusion that Gruden sabotaged Griffin and not the TEAM, other than being somehow still emotionally attached to Griffin because of 2012.

I think I stated my case pretty clearly. Gruden thought Cousins was best for the team (a stance I happen to agree with). The Danny thought RGIII was best for the team. How can Gruden convince the Danny to let him play Cousins over RGIII? He highlights RGIII's flaws in press conferences, and pre-season games, while helping Kirk to eliminate his flaws on the other side. The Danny sees the obvious, and relents from his demands that RGIII be the starter. The TEAM is improved as Kirk grows into his new role. Is that clear enough?

[riggofan]

He sabotaged him by calling him out in public last season. He sabotaged him by not giving him the hands on attention that he did with Kirk.

Boo hoo.

Very insightful. The question was asked, and I answered.

I make no claims to insight.

If I wanted to be insightful I would have asked you how in the world you have any idea that this statement is true: "by not giving him the hands on attention that he did with Kirk. " I mean, really? This former offensive coordinator gets hired to his first head coaching job and he doesn't give his starting QB hands on attention? Give me a f-ing break. Not only do you have no way of knowing that is true, but its just patently stupid to suggest.

The hanging on to Griffin for dear life stuff is just embarrassing at this point. He was given every chance to succeed here.

RG3 will get another shot next year. And I have no doubt that he'll end up starting for somebody next year too. Have you seen some of the guys who are starting for Indianapolis, Houston, etc; this year? There just aren't enough QBs who can do the job.

Personally, I think he'll have the same issues with other teams that he had here. He'll do some good things. He'll even do some AMAZING things. But he will struggle from the pocket and he'll be injured early and often.

[Deadskins]

I just don't agree that Bob is "garbage," or that he can't learn to play the NFL style of QB, given time and the right coach.

I think you need to rewatch the games and listen to C00ley's film breakdowns. You don't come to the NFL to learn how to do basic functions, especially at the expense of the careers of your teammates. Sure, you can hone skills but this dude couldn't even get his drops correct.

Just yesterday, C00ley spoke of how angry the lockeroom was at RGIII because he made them look HORRIBLE and wasnt owning up to it. This past preseason, the players were leaking information about how RGIII was calling the wrong blocking schemes in the huddle. The coaches know it, the players know it. Yet you have RGIII going on and on at press conferences about how he needs more out of his teammates. He's a selfish player and shell of his former self.

While I agree he can succeed running ONE scheme... The ONE coach that employs a scheme he can run just got fired yesterday. The other coach in Ron Rivera has a potential MVP candidate at QB, a man who doesn't have injury problems. RGIII is done.

Nothing you said here refutes my statement.

[Deadskins]

It most certainly is sabotage, when you call the player out for specific failures like he did. We absolutely have designed rollouts for Cousins. I'm not talking about scrambling at all. Scrambling involves feeling pressure and leaving the pocket, something RGIII did much too often, and Kirk rarely does. I'm talking about bootlegs, and designed rollouts, which we do plenty if you watch the games.

I don't think what Jay did was right, even though I understand why he did it. When we take into account the totality of the circumstances, it makes more sense but still isn't justifiable. On one hand, I feel RGIII deserved the humiliation. On the other hand, it made the organization look bad.

RGIII was doing the same things to his teammates. He was making them look bad on the field (according to ey), he was calling them out in his press conferences and he wasn't putting the work in. C00ley said yesterday or the day b4, that Jay was in danger of losing the locker room when this fiasco occurred... While it wasn't the best way to do it, I think in the heat of the moment he did what he felt he needed to do to protect his players. And also, to protect his integrity, pride and image moving forward.

Very possible.

[riggofan]

I just don't agree that Bob is "garbage," or that he can't learn to play the NFL style of QB, given time and the right coach.

I think you need to rewatch the games and listen to C00ley's film breakdowns. You don't come to the NFL to learn how to do basic functions, especially at the expense of the careers of your teammates. Sure, you can hone skills but this dude couldn't even get his drops correct.

Just yesterday, C00ley spoke of how angry the lockeroom was at RGIII because he made them look HORRIBLE and wasnt owning up to it. This past preseason, the players were leaking information about how RGIII was calling the wrong blocking schemes in the huddle. The coaches know it, the players know it. Yet you have RGIII going on and on at press conferences about how he needs more out of his teammates. He's a selfish player and shell of his former self.

While I agree he can succeed running ONE scheme... The ONE coach that employs a scheme he can run just got fired yesterday. The other coach in Ron Rivera has a potential MVP candidate at QB, a man who doesn't have injury problems. RGIII is done.

Nothing you said here refutes my statement.

Man, I don't think your statement is wrong or needs to be refuted. He's not garbage and maybe he could learn to play a pro style. I just don't believe he'll have the time to do it as a starting QB, because he can't protect himself.

I've said this before, but the worst thing to happen to him was to have that 2012 success running that gimmick offense. He would have been better off in a situation where he didn't have to start on day one and had time to learn. He's just not going to survive the OJT approach in my opinion.

I know, I know. He looked bad and couldn't protect himself because of Gruden. Right. Guess we'll find out next year.

[mastdark81]

Rg3 was the man prior injury...top 10 player overall. Kirk the man now! Qb talk getting old. Lets get these wins redskin nation.

[Deadskins]

I make no claims to insight.

If I wanted to be insightful I would have asked you how in the world you have any idea that this statement is true: "by not giving him the hands on attention that he did with Kirk. " I mean, really? This former offensive coordinator gets hired to his first head coaching job and he doesn't give his starting QB hands on attention? Give me a f-ing break. Not only do you have no way of knowing that is true, but its just patently stupid to suggest.

The hanging on to Griffin for dear life stuff is just embarrassing at this point. He was given every chance to succeed here.

RG3 will get another shot next year. And I have no doubt that he'll end up starting for somebody next year too. Have you seen some of the guys who are starting for Indianapolis, Houston, etc; this year? There just aren't enough QBs who can do the job.

Personally, I think he'll have the same issues with other teams that he had here. He'll do some good things. He'll even do some AMAZING things. But he will struggle from the pocket and he'll be injured early and often.

You haven't heard the story about him sitting down with Kirk and going over game film of Tom Brady? Sorry, but everything I said is true. Show me where I'm trying to hang on to RGIII. Re-read my posts. You have some preconceived notion of my feelings about RGIII, and reading more into my posts than what I am actually saying.

[Deadskins]

I know, I know. He looked bad and couldn't protect himself because of Gruden. Right. Guess we'll find out next year.

Man, now you're really reaching.

[Chris Luva Luva]

I just don't believe he'll have the time to do it as a starting QB, because he can't protect himself.

And that's it, right there. He's had years to make progress but he can't. And he's shown that he wouldn't put in the work neccesary in the film room. When I see someone refuse to put in the needed time to prep and study, they're garbage in my book. He doesn't know what it takes to be a good NFL QB and when tasked to do it, he came up short. His athletic ability isn't garbage, not by a long shot. But when you mix in the level of selfishness and arrogance he's displayed, thats when I sour on a player.

I've said this before, but the worst thing to happen to him was to have that 2012 success running that gimmick offense. He would have been better off in a situation where he didn't have to start on day one and had time to learn. He's just not going to survive the OJT approach in my opinion.

He would have been fine if he humbled himself. If he had acceptable responsiblity for his actions, because he shared some of the blame for his injury. If he realized sooner (didn't admit to it, until this past offseason) that he needed to diff level of film study to take it to the next level. He could have weened himself into it, like Cam has. Like Russell has. Neither will be a traditional QB, ever... But you can make yourself more versatile.

I know, I know. He looked bad and couldn't protect himself because of Gruden. Right. Guess we'll find out next year.

Thanks Obama. lol

[riggofan]

I know, I know. He looked bad and couldn't protect himself because of Gruden. Right. Guess we'll find out next year.

Man, now you're really reaching.

haha. How do you figure? Didn't you just write THIS in the past 24 hours?

He sabotaged him by calling plays in the preseason that called for him to make deep drops on slowly developing plays when he knew the line wasn't up to providing that kind of protection at that point. You didn't notice that when Cousins came in, we suddenly switched to roll outs, and play action?

There's volumes of this stuff posted here. I didn't have to reach all that far to come up with it.

I don't know, man. Maybe you're right. He'll go work with Coach AwesomePants next year who will call the right plays for him, and it will be all good. We'll find out next year and I promise I will be the first guy to admit if I was wrong.

[Chris Luva Luva]

He sabotaged him by calling plays in the preseason that called for him to make deep drops on slowly developing plays when he knew the line wasn't up to providing that kind of protection at that point. You didn't notice that when Cousins came in, we suddenly switched to roll outs, and play action?

Or maybe it was because RGIII didn't need help with that part of his game? We already knew he can bootleg. We already knew that he's great at that playaction deep ball.

That isn't what he needed practice with. He needed practice dropping back while utilizing proper footwork and making his way through progressions in a timely manner. Additionally, they needed to keep him in the pocket because that's the safest place for a QB. However, RGIII called the wrong line protection on the play he got concussed on... But I'm sure that was Jay Gruden using Jedi mind tricks to make RGIII call the wrong protection scheme. He then willed RGIII to stand poised and strong in the pocket, just to get creamed by an opposing player.

[Deadskins]

I know, I know. He looked bad and couldn't protect himself because of Gruden. Right. Guess we'll find out next year.

Man, now you're really reaching.

haha. How do you figure? Didn't you just write THIS in the past 24 hours?

He sabotaged him by calling plays in the preseason that called for him to make deep drops on slowly developing plays when he knew the line wasn't up to providing that kind of protection at that point. You didn't notice that when Cousins came in, we suddenly switched to roll outs, and play action?

There's volumes of this stuff posted here. I didn't have to reach all that far to come up with it.

I don't know, man. Maybe you're right. He'll go work with Coach AwesomePants next year who will call the right plays for him, and it will be all good. We'll find out next year and I promise I will be the first guy to admit if I was wrong.

That wasn't the point I was making, though. I never said Gruden caused those faults, I just said he highlighted them to prove the point to the Danny. Your reach was trying to paint my posts as saying something they didn't.

[Deadskins]

He sabotaged him by calling plays in the preseason that called for him to make deep drops on slowly developing plays when he knew the line wasn't up to providing that kind of protection at that point. You didn't notice that when Cousins came in, we suddenly switched to roll outs, and play action?

Or maybe it was because RGIII didn't need help with that part of his game? We already knew he can bootleg. We already knew that he's great at that playaction deep ball.

That isn't what he needed practice with. He needed practice dropping back while utilizing proper footwork and making his way through progressions in a timely manner. Additionally, they needed to keep him in the pocket because that's the safest place for a QB. However, RGIII called the wrong line protection on the play he got concussed on... But I'm sure that was Jay Gruden using Jedi mind tricks to make RGIII call the wrong protection scheme. He then willed RGIII to stand poised and strong in the pocket, just to get creamed by an opposing player.

Again, not saying Gruden caused the weak parts or RGIII's game, just saying the play-calling highlighted it, just as the play-calling highlighted Cousins' good points.

[Chris Luva Luva]

That wasn't the point I was making, though. I never said Gruden caused those faults, I just said he highlighted them to prove the point to the Danny. Your reach was trying to paint my posts as saying something they didn't.

You're right that Gruden didn't cause those faults, RGIII did. So there's no room for sabotage. RGIII was gifted the starting role when it should have been an open competition. He comes into the preseason game against Detroit and does the following:

1. Shows an inability to read the defense.
2. Shows an inability to adjust the offensive blocking to his interpretation of the defense.
3. Again, as he did in 2013 and 2014, showed an inability to feel direct pressure in his face. As he's over compensating for his gut instinct to break from the pocket.
4. He ended up concussed from his own ineptitude.

Jay didn't need to sabotage RGIII, Robert did it for him.

Now, I because I quote C00ley a lot. I will give your theory some credence. Chris stated that RGIII's inability to play the position would be more detrimental if he was the backup during the off-season. Why???? Because the backup is working with the younger players, the rookies. He theorized that it was never really a competition but that they made him the starter, so that Kirk (who can operate the offense easily) would work with them. Thus giving the evaluators/coaches a truer understanding of the progress the young players are making.

This goes back to what C00ley said last year. He often couldn't grade players cus RGIII broke the play so badly, it never formed. So maybe the answer is "both".

Again, not saying Gruden caused the weak parts or RGIII's game, just saying the play-calling highlighted it, just as the play-calling highlighted Cousins' good points.

Let's not forget the abysmal day/s that RGIII had during the practices with the Texans. It's about more than the preseason. He looked marginal all off-season. If you've followed ey's analysis, you'd know this.