What has Jay Gruden accomplished?

[SkinsJock]

Jay Gruden is doing as well as he can with the players he has

And that's my point of contention. I believe more could be done with the current crop of players.

I'm starting to think there's a lot more that could have been done this season - last Monday's night "effort" left a lot to be desired


and today's game showed that we are not taking full advantage of what we have

[Burgundy&GoldForever]

Jay Gruden is doing as well as he can with the players he has

And that's my point of contention. I believe more could be done with the current crop of players.

I'm starting to think there's a lot more that could have been done this season - last Monday's night "effort" left a lot to be desired


and today's game showed that we are not taking full advantage of what we have

You are what your record says you are. So far we're three wins better than last season. We're a six win team. That's who we are. Considering most experts were picking us to be the worst team in the league this season I'd say we're doing better than expected. If we were a mediocre team we'd have nine wins right now. At what point did this team become worthy of high expectations? I don't understand the more could be done statement. 20% of the team's initial starting roster is on I.R.. We're starting a 4th round quarterback and four virtual rookie offensive linemen, two backup inside linebackers, a converted wide receiver at nickel corner, a converted corner at safety, and so on. And we have virtually no running game.

If we get to eight wins this season will be one hell of a success.

[Chris Luva Luva]

I think the team has completely overachieved this season and surpassed my personal expectations. This season has been 1000x more enjoyable to watch than I expected.

Just because they've surpassed the expectations of media pundits and fielded a competitive product on the field, doesn't prove or disprove anything. Those two things are true, I'd agree with you. However, the level of attribution of these results to Jay Gruden are what I question. I tend to believe that these new sustainable traits of the team can be directly correlated to the arrival of Scot McCloughan? Why? Because they're similar traits of the two SuperBowl teams he was directly involved in building.

When I see the level of resiliency, competitive fire and ACCOUNTABILITY (which has NEVER existed as long as I've been a fan)... My immediate question doesn't become, 'what has Jay done diff, this year?'. It became, 'what changed?'. I attribute it to Scot. Obviously there is some growth there from Jay to be fair. But if we took a poll today of who you'd much rather lose, Jay or Scot? It'd be Jay 100%. And that in of itself proves my point.

[Chris Luva Luva]

I don't understand the more could be done statement.

That's because you aren't accustomed to watching winning football in the last two decades.

20% of the team's initial starting roster is on I.R..

And they're playing better than the starting roster in some regards. Why is that? Free agent and draft acquisitions. Who is leading that charge? Scot McCloughan.

We're starting a 4th round quarterback

And the Patriots are starting 6th round QB, Romo was a free agent... Kurt Warner was bagging groceries. So what that he was a fourth round pick, it's kinda irrelevant as he's shown that he can play in this league prior to this season.

virtual rookie offensive linemen

We're playing 1 rookie. And a handful of 2 and third year players outside of Trent Williams. Again, your point that this team shouldn't be doing this has more to do with what you've become accustomed to and not what's expected a TRUE NFL roster.

two backup inside linebackers

Mason was a 4 year starter at Tampa and was damn good. He got injured.

If we get to eight wins this season will be one hell of a success.

And there's a reason for that success and that's the point of this thread. Who do you choose to attribute the success to. And in a way, you've proven my point. You've gone on and on about all of these bum backups doing better than they were expected to... IMO, Scots influence lit a fire amongst the locker room. He injected it with talent and leadership. I've read the reports of him sitting out on the practice fields, actively scouting our roster. He sits in the common areas at Redskins park, working with paper strewn every which way. This is a new era here. An era of accountability. An area where our 2nd and 3rd year players are EXPECTED to contribute and not just take up roster space. Our season is no longer over when the men holding the starting position are injured. We have real depth for the first time in my years as a fan.

I think the old ways of thinking with this team will be thing of the past. "Any given Sunday" never really applied here. This team was an easy win for any opponent. Now, we really have a chance to win. So, I expected more than 3 wins this year because McCloughans track record spoke to it. So in a way, I'm not shocked or surprised. I've moved on from that realization and looking towards the future. So while some fans are still in awe over what we've achieved, I believe and can see that it's more there.

[DEHog]

I think the team has completely overachieved this season and surpassed my personal expectations. This season has been 1000x more enjoyable to watch than I expected.

Just because they've surpassed the expectations of media pundits and fielded a competitive product on the field, doesn't prove or disprove anything. Those two things are true, I'd agree with you. However, the level of attribution of these results to Jay Gruden are what I question. I tend to believe that these new sustainable traits of the team can be directly correlated to the arrival of Scot McCloughan? Why? Because they're similar traits of the two SuperBowl teams he was directly involved in building.

When I see the level of resiliency, competitive fire and ACCOUNTABILITY (which has NEVER existed as long as I've been a fan)... My immediate question doesn't become, 'what has Jay done diff, this year?'. It became, 'what changed?'. I attribute it to Scot. Obviously there is some growth there from Jay to be fair. But if we took a poll today of who you'd much rather lose, Jay or Scot? It'd be Jay 100%. And that in of itself proves my point.

So Chris are you saying the Skins have underachieved? How many games did YOU have them winning this year? Then add they lost two thirds of the O-Line, and OLB, two inside LB, TE, WR,and a Corner (who am I missing) and tell me what your expectations was/is?? Scot doesn't develope, coach and manage games. So if the Redskins were losing who would get the blame? Not fair to give credit to the GM for winning and fault to the coach for losing IMHO.

[Chris Luva Luva]

So Chris are you saying the Skins have underachieved?

It's a matter of perspective, I'd imagine. As many things lead to our pre-season projections. The quality of the owner. The quality of prior drafts, FA class... Etc. etc. I've been away a lot, but the team is doing EXACTLY what I expected of them. This team is laden with talent, especially offensively.

How many games did YOU have them winning this year?

If you had asked me back in August. I would have said 6-8 wins.

Then add they lost two thirds of the O-Line, and OLB, two inside LB, TE, WR,and a Corner (who am I missing)

You kinda undersold the TE position. They've lost 3-4. LOL

and tell me what your expectations was/is?? Scot doesn't develope, coach and manage games.

No, he doesn't. But Jay doesn't neccesarily do those things well. Time management is still an atrocity. And at times, the mental lapses of the team are pretty suspect.

So if the Redskins were losing who would get the blame? Not fair to give credit to the GM for winning and fault to the coach for losing IMHO.

I wouldn't say that it is fair. And I'm sure I'm being a bit unfair. Jay does deserve some credit, he absolutely does. My stance isn't that he's a complete failure. My stance is that he's not a great HC. He's proven to be a decent OC. I'd love for him to prove me wrong. I don't want to be right. I don't want to be right for the sake of sticking my finger in the faces of forum members. I'd love for him to make me look like an idiot.

Edit: Additionally. I'd be inclined to give Scot more credit because he's given us results. This the 1st IMPACTFUL draft class I've ever seen. Not just the 1st round pick, but all of them? And our players are being poached off of waivers and the PS. Those things were rare for us in the past.

Also, I've seen our new DC put forth great defensive efforts with a bunch of players who weren't projected to start. Or weren't on the team during the off-season. So I guess I"m looking for Jay to give us something substantial. And maybe Im being too hard on him. Averaging 1.8 YPC on the ground and not engaging Garcon and Jackson into the game as much as we need are frustrating. Or maybe it's Cousins fault...

[riggofan]

Just because they've surpassed the expectations of media pundits and fielded a competitive product on the field, doesn't prove or disprove anything. Those two things are true, I'd agree with you. However, the level of attribution of these results to Jay Gruden are what I question. I tend to believe that these new sustainable traits of the team can be directly correlated to the arrival of Scot McCloughan? Why? Because they're similar traits of the two SuperBowl teams he was directly involved in building.

True, but they haven't just surpassed the media expectations. They've surpassed MY expectations and the expectations of pretty much everyone on here. Go take a look at the preseason predictions from people on this message board back in August.

I totally agree with you about Scot. Especially given the number of injuries we've had on offense and defense this year. In past years, the GM whoever that was would bring in guys off the street who couldn't help. Scot has done an incredibly job from I've seen of getting quality guys off the street to keep us afloat.

That still doesn't mean that Jay Gruden doesn't deserve any credit. Jay hired the coaching staff, not Scot McCloughan. I think they've done a pretty good job as a staff so far. Its not a great team, but we don't suck either. I've enjoyed the hell out of this season so far.

There really isn't anything to prove or disprove. You clearly don't think that Gruden has contributed much to the team. My personal take is that its something we're just going to have to judge over a longer stretch of time. For me, I don't see how the head coach doesn't deserve some credit for things like the development of Kirk Cousins. I like the week to week approach with the team, not getting so high on wins or low on losses. I like his willingness to stick with his guns and not react to all of the noise in this town.

Like I said, though. Respectfully disagree with your opinion, but its one of those time will tell things.

[Chris Luva Luva]

I totally agree with you about Scot. Especially given the number of injuries we've had on offense and defense this year. In past years, the GM whoever that was would bring in guys off the street who couldn't help. Scot has done an incredibly job from I've seen of getting quality guys off the street to keep us afloat.

They aren't just keeping them afloat, some are performing better than entrenched starters. For example, Keenan and Riley.

You clearly don't think that Gruden has contributed much to the team.

I think my gripe is that I haven't seen progress in the areas in which I expect him to have a large influence. Time management, personell management, play clock, play cadence.

My personal take is that its something we're just going to have to judge over a longer stretch of time.

Thats fair.

For me, I don't see how the head coach doesn't deserve some credit for things like the development of Kirk Cousins.

Jay gets credit for hiring Cavaugnah. Realizing that he wasn't able to give the QB's the help/time they needed.

Respectfully disagree with your opinion, but its one of those time will tell things.

Same here.

[DEHog]

This is the way a NFL team is suppose be run! How many ex Redskins coaches are looking at this year’s team and saying to themselves…hell I could still be coaching there if Dumb and Dumber had gotten me a competent GM and gotten out of the way! I don’t think it’s any secret that better players make coaches better, we are in year one of this regime. Does Gruden need to improve, yes…has he improved? I’d say he has, and has earned another year under this GM. There are numerous examples of coaches who struggle early in their careers, who were fortunate enough to have a patient GM/Owner who allowed them to coach through their struggles.

[Chris Luva Luva]

This is the way a NFL team is suppose be run! How many ex Redskins coaches are looking at this year’s team and saying to themselves…hell I could still be coaching there if Dumb and Dumber had gotten me a competent GM and gotten out of the way! I don’t think it’s any secret that better players make coaches better, we are in year one of this regime. Does Gruden need to improve, a yes…has he improve? I’d say he has, and has earned another shot under the GM. There are numerous examples of coaches who struggle early in their careers, who were fortunate enough to have a patient GM/Owner who allowed them to coach through their struggles.

True, I can't debate that.

[DEHog]

This is the way a NFL team is suppose be run! How many ex Redskins coaches are looking at this year’s team and saying to themselves…hell I could still be coaching there if Dumb and Dumber had gotten me a competent GM and gotten out of the way! I don’t think it’s any secret that better players make coaches better, we are in year one of this regime. Does Gruden need to improve, a yes…has he improve? I’d say he has, and has earned another shot under the GM. There are numerous examples of coaches who struggle early in their careers, who were fortunate enough to have a patient GM/Owner who allowed them to coach through their struggles.

True, I can't debate that.

Either way Chris, I'm just happy we have a GM that I trust. If he decides to move on from Gruden this year I would have zero problems with it!! Because I trust that he knows what a HC looks like.

[Deadskins]

This is the way a NFL team is suppose be run! How many ex Redskins coaches are looking at this year’s team and saying to themselves…hell I could still be coaching there if Dumb and Dumber had gotten me a competent GM and gotten out of the way! I don’t think it’s any secret that better players make coaches better, we are in year one of this regime. Does Gruden need to improve, a yes…has he improve? I’d say he has, and has earned another shot under the GM. There are numerous examples of coaches who struggle early in their careers, who were fortunate enough to have a patient GM/Owner who allowed them to coach through their struggles.

True, I can't debate that.

Either way Chris, I'm just happy we have a GM that I trust. If he decides to move on from Gruden this year I would have zero problems with it!! Because I trust that he knows what a HC looks like.

+1,000,000

[Chris Luva Luva]

Either way Chris, I'm just happy we have a GM that I trust. If he decides to move on from Gruden this year I would have zero problems with it!! Because I trust that he knows what a HC looks like.

We are no longer a team that cant afford an injury or two at any position. We truly have depth for the first time. And not only that, we have backups that are pushing our starters for their positions. Who would have predicted that our best MLB would more than likely be released? We might be rolling into 2016 without Keenan.

[SkinsJock]

there is no doubt that the Redskins have improved and that Scot has got this franchise headed in the right direction

the point is that Jay Gruden has not done a great job - this offense has not responded to the great offensive guru that is Jay Gruden

btw - we won 4 games last season NOT 3 - can you at least get that straight?

where a player is drafted means squat - it's what you do on the field that counts - I know very little about this game but I could put together a better team from draft picks from the 3rd round and lower than you could with players from rounds 1 and 2 - IT MEANS SQUAT

[SkinsJock]

... I'm just happy we have a GM that I trust. If he decides to move on from Gruden this year I would have zero problems with it!! Because I trust that he knows what a HC looks like.

+1

and I'll bet that that guy does not look like or coach like Jay Gruden

[Burgundy&GoldForever]

... I'm just happy we have a GM that I trust. If he decides to move on from Gruden this year I would have zero problems with it!! Because I trust that he knows what a HC looks like.

+1

and I'll bet that that guy does not look like or coach like Jay Gruden

Why the ad hominem on Jay Gruden's appearance? There are a lot of things not to like about Gruden's coaching style but they have nothing whatsoever to do with his appearance.

[StorminMormon86]

I get the discussion brought forth by the OP in this thread...but we just won and remain in first place. Gruden should be safe for 2016.

[Chris Luva Luva]

I get the discussion brought forth by the OP in this thread...but we just won and remain in first place. Gruden should be safe for 2016.

Well, let's pump the brakes a bit. On one hand, we're in first place because of the fact that this division is weak and injury riddled. On the other hand, previous Redskin teams wouldn't have taken advantage of this situation and would have pissed it all away back in October/Nov.


That being said, this season will go a long way towards teaching the young nucleus of this team what it takes to win in this league. It's exciting.

[SkinsJock]

... I'm just happy we have a GM that I trust. If he decides to move on from Gruden this year I would have zero problems with it!! Because I trust that he knows what a HC looks like.

+1 and I'll bet that that guy does not look like or coach like Jay Gruden

Why the ad hominem on Jay Gruden's appearance? There are a lot of things not to like about Gruden's coaching style but they have nothing whatsoever to do with his appearance.

nothing to do with his "appearance" - just that Scot knows what a good HC "looks like" and it's not Jay Gruden

[SkinsJock]

I get the discussion brought forth by the OP in this thread...but we just won and remain in first place. Gruden should be safe for 2016.

I get it ... we have a chance to win the division, we are an improved franchise and we've exceeded expectations - OK? that's all well and good
the last 2 games just amplified my feeling that this franchise will be better off with a new HC and why not sooner than later

I'm OK with him staying as I understand that we still need to add players and improve our depth

I think that we've seen enough - while the accountability we have here is partly due to Jay Gruden - I think Scot will make a change

[Deadskins]

I get the discussion brought forth by the OP in this thread...but we just won and remain in first place. Gruden should be safe for 2016.

I get it ... we have a chance to win the division, we are an improved franchise and we've exceeded expectations - OK? that's all well and good
the last 2 games just amplified my feeling that this franchise will be better off with a new HC and why not sooner than later

I'm OK with him staying as I understand that we still need to add players and improve our depth

I think that we've seen enough - while the accountability we have here is partly due to Jay Gruden - I think Scot will make a change

If we make the playoffs, there is no way Scot makes a change. I actually think he won't be making a change either way, but I wouldn't rule it out as impossible.

[Irn-Bru]

This is the way a NFL team is suppose be run! How many ex Redskins coaches are looking at this year’s team and saying to themselves…hell I could still be coaching there if Dumb and Dumber had gotten me a competent GM and gotten out of the way! I don’t think it’s any secret that better players make coaches better, we are in year one of this regime. Does Gruden need to improve, a yes…has he improve? I’d say he has, and has earned another shot under the GM. There are numerous examples of coaches who struggle early in their careers, who were fortunate enough to have a patient GM/Owner who allowed them to coach through their struggles.

True, I can't debate that.

Either way Chris, I'm just happy we have a GM that I trust. If he decides to move on from Gruden this year I would have zero problems with it!! Because I trust that he knows what a HC looks like.

Well said. I basically agree with this 100%.

[markshark84]

I get the discussion brought forth by the OP in this thread...but we just won and remain in first place. Gruden should be safe for 2016.

Well, let's pump the brakes a bit. On one hand, we're in first place because of the fact that this division is weak and injury riddled. On the other hand, previous Redskin teams wouldn't have taken advantage of this situation and would have pissed it all away back in October/Nov.


That being said, this season will go a long way towards teaching the young nucleus of this team what it takes to win in this league. It's exciting.

I agree with much of what you have said in the past couple pages as it relates to Scot, but ultimately not with the conclusion that Gruden should unquestionably be replaced. Scot has proven this year to be a good GM ---- as I think the overwhelming majority of us thought would be the case. This has benefited Gruden. But I just don't understand why you would mess with a dynamic when we are seeing clear improvement. Perhaps I don't like it because it is literally as quintessential Danny boy as you can get. I am also a fan of continuity in cases where there is no regression at all --- emphasis on "at all" (on more of a macro level when separating by OFF, DEF, ST); and I always have been whether football or in my own profession.

The way I see it, if I were Scot going into next year, I would tell Gruden that I am going to give him the players he needs. I would communicate with him very frequently over the offseason and take his considerations on where to improve seriously as it relates to personnel and what he needs (then do a juggling act where I still do >90% of what I thought was best while honoring his input). Then, come next season, if there isn't clear improvement in 2016 vs. 2015, you think about replacing him.

But, IMHO, replacing Gruden because you don't think he is "great" --- when he's CLEARLY working with "NFL mediocre" at best --- is unfair. You have to remember what Gruden inherited. It was pretty ugly. There are only 5 starters remaining from just 2 seasons ago. I'd love to know how many other teams have less. Perhaps a couple at most; maybe even none (I don't have the time to do the research).

And per my typical caveat --- I'm not a huge Gruden fan. I just think we don't need to fire/blow up a rookie coaching staff 2 years in after there has been year over year improvement in both seasons they have been in place. Especially considering the fact Gruden was willing to bite the bullet and make improvements, like getting Callahan and Cavanaugh (who should be getting WAY more credit than Callahan). So, I'd like to see if he can again make improved personnel changes (e.g., new OC) and see if that helps. If there is regression, THEN you pull the trigger (at the end of the season) on making changes.

[SkinsJock]

I'd like to see Gruden gone but at the same time I'm confident that Scot knows better than I what is better for this franchise and I'm very sure that he will act accordingly - this is a fan site and we all get to 'express' ourselves - just because theirs a bunch of guys here that don't agree with me, doesn't make them right or wrong - they're entitled to their opinion, just as I am

I think that Gruden's done OK here - I'm just hoping that Scot has someone in mind that can do better.

If that's not the case right now, no big deal - I still think it will happen in a year or 2

[StorminMormon86]

I'd like to see Gruden gone

Why?

Seriously, what has he done to warrant you wanting him gone?