Somebody Said Cousins Couldn't Throw Deep..

[SkinsJock]

From Keim: "When he benched Griffin for Cousins this summer, many in the locker room liked the move because it signaled that the players performing the best would play." Gruden was hired to win. He knew he would lose the locker room by sticking with Griffin, so he did what he needed to do.

So if SM was never hired everything would have gone down the same way? Snyder never interfered or influenced who played QB last year?

good luck with trying to get this guy to see reason when it comes to Kirk Cousins

[riggofan]

It's not a BS criticism. If you don't believe that getting RGIII back on track didn't figure into Gruden's hiring, then you have to be blind to the fact that the Danny likes Bob a little bit.
Also, we didn't even hire a QB coach until this year.

Then it was a BS expectation.

I get your point about Snyder and of course it was expected that he would try to develop Griffin when he was hired. Gruden gave RG3 two full off seasons of work to do it. I give Gruden more credit for being willing to stand up and say this isn't working than continuing to put Griffin at risk week after week just because Snyder wanted it.

I know Danny is such an expert on all things football related, but...

[riggofan]

there is no doubt at all that one of the main attributes the Redskins were looking for in their new HC was to bring in someone that could help straighten out their prized possession - certainly they also hoped he would become a good NFL HC - Jay Gruden failed at that endeavor for possibly very valid reasons but he did, that's a fact - Jay Gruden is only still here because we have Scot and a FO that made Snyder not do that

This is true. Gruden failed to turn Robert Griffin into the pocket passer of our fantasy land. So?

[DEHog]

It's not a BS criticism. If you don't believe that getting RGIII back on track didn't figure into Gruden's hiring, then you have to be blind to the fact that the Danny likes Bob a little bit.
Also, we didn't even hire a QB coach until this year.

Then it was a BS expectation.

I get your point about Snyder and of course it was expected that he would try to develop Griffin when he was hired. Gruden gave RG3 two full off seasons of work to do it. I give Gruden more credit for being willing to stand up and say this isn't working than continuing to put Griffin at risk week after week just because Snyder wanted it.

I know Danny is such an expert on all things football related, but...

If I’m being honest I was a bit surprised at how quickly Gruden bailed on RG…it wasn’t a few games in (notwithstanding the injury) that Gruden started throwing RG under the bus. I think it speaks to how difficult it was/is going to be to develop him. Still for a coach who was brought here to develop him, I thought he bailed pretty quick, and it’s one of the only times I agreed with Snyder that is was too soon to do so. You know Snyder first, second and last reasons for hiring Gruden was to turn the RGIII lead Redskins into winners.

[Deadskins]

If quarterbacks and offensive guru Mike Shanahan couldn't turn RGIII into a pocket passer what in the hell made anyone think Jay Gruden could?

I don't consider Mike Shanahan to be either of those things, so I have no reason to expect anything different. But even Shanny said that it would take three to four years to turn Bob into a pocket QB. Also, I didn't say it was my expectation that Gruden could turn RGIII around, I said it was the Danny's and that was obviously a big part of why he was hired.

[riggofan]

If I’m being honest I was a bit surprised at how quickly Gruden bailed on RG…it wasn’t a few games in (notwithstanding the injury) that Gruden started throwing RG under the bus.

Well the throwing him under the bus thing was a direct response to Griffin throwing teammates under the bus at the time if you remember. I think it was the head coach putting a player who thought too highly of himself in his place. Whether or not it was right to do so publicly is debatable.

I think it speaks to how difficult it was/is going to be to develop him. Still for a coach who was brought here to develop him, I thought he bailed pretty quick, and it’s one of the only times I agreed with Snyder that is was too soon to do so. You know Snyder first, second and last reasons for hiring Gruden was to turn the RGIII lead Redskins into winners.

Yeah I get that.

Don't you think that's kind of easy for us to say though? You're the head coach out there watching this guy at practice for months and you know he's not getting it done or worse you realize he's way further behind than you thought. The guys on the team know it. You can't run a basic NFL offense with him. You know you can't win anytime soon with him. I know I'm exaggerating and guessing at some of that. I'm just saying I think you're right in your statement about how difficult the task was/is.

I think it was also exacerbated by this whole naming him the day one starter thing. Maybe he would have been better off taking a back seat as the 2d string for a while and having time to learn that way rather than trying to learn in live games.

What I'm really saying here is Dan Snyder sucks.

[riggofan]

Also, I didn't say it was my expectation that Gruden could turn RGIII around, I said it was the Danny's and that was obviously a big part of why he was hired.

And this is why I said its a BS criticism. We're criticizing Gruden for failing to deliver on Snyder's unrealistic expectations for RG3. Instead, he took charge, made a decision as the head coach and is attempting to deliver a winning season instead.

[Deadskins]

Also, I didn't say it was my expectation that Gruden could turn RGIII around, I said it was the Danny's and that was obviously a big part of why he was hired.

And this is why I said its a BS criticism. We're criticizing Gruden for failing to deliver on Snyder's unrealistic expectations for RG3. Instead, he took charge, made a decision as the head coach and is attempting to deliver a winning season instead.

Well, not if you believe, like some do, that he should be held accountable for not doing what he was hired to do. I'm fine with the way things worked out IF we can go on to accomplish bigger goals as a team (though I probably give SM more credit for that than JG). If we are going to be a 3 to 5 win team every year anyway, then why not hold Gruden at least to the standard for which he was hired?

[markshark84]

I forgot to put this within my initial response, but if I reference a stat and found it on a particular website, I usually provide the link. In cases like this one, I just provide the stat since I had to run the #s myself.

Just saw on ESPN:

Since Week 7, Cousins has the NFL’s best passer rating at 111.5, according to ESPN Stats & Information.

That is great, but for me personally, passer rating isn't a metric I put lasting emphasis in. Yeah it is better to have a high passer rating vs. a lower one, but for me, QBR is a better determinant --- which, obviously is a personal preference as I've learned some people consider QBR "garbage".....

[DEHog]

If I’m being honest I was a bit surprised at how quickly Gruden bailed on RG…it wasn’t a few games in (notwithstanding the injury) that Gruden started throwing RG under the bus.

Well the throwing him under the bus thing was a direct response to Griffin throwing teammates under the bus at the time if you remember. I think it was the head coach putting a player who thought too highly of himself in his place. Whether or not it was right to do so publicly is debatable.

I think it speaks to how difficult it was/is going to be to develop him. Still for a coach who was brought here to develop him, I thought he bailed pretty quick, and it’s one of the only times I agreed with Snyder that is was too soon to do so. You know Snyder first, second and last reasons for hiring Gruden was to turn the RGIII lead Redskins into winners.

Yeah I get that.

Don't you think that's kind of easy for us to say though? You're the head coach out there watching this guy at practice for months and you know he's not getting it done or worse you realize he's way further behind than you thought. The guys on the team know it. You can't run a basic NFL offense with him. You know you can't win anytime soon with him. I know I'm exaggerating and guessing at some of that. I'm just saying I think you're right in your statement about how difficult the task was/is.

I think it was also exacerbated by this whole naming him the day one starter thing. Maybe he would have been better off taking a back seat as the 2d string for a while and having time to learn that way rather than trying to learn in live games.

What I'm really saying here is Dan Snyder sucks.

Ha...good points, I do agree that Gruden figured out early that RG was a project at best. I just think (and wished) RG would have gotten most of the reps in most of the games last year so the team could have put it to rest. Not like we were winning anyhting last year. If that had happened they may have moved on from him already??

[riggofan]

Well, not if you believe, like some do, that he should be held accountable for not doing what he was hired to do. I'm fine with the way things worked out IF we can go on to accomplish bigger goals as a team (though I probably give SM more credit for that than JG). If we are going to be a 3 to 5 win team every year anyway, then why not hold Gruden at least to the standard for which he was hired?

Because I don't care if Snyder hired him hoping to salvage RG3. RG3 may be completely unsalvageable for all we know and at some point THE PLAYER has to SHOW that the coaching and off season work is paying off.

All I care about is that Gruden was hired as the head coach of the Washington Redskins. I care that Gruden gets the team back to winning. I'll hold him accountable for not winning games - not for failing to meet Snyder's wild expectations with Griffin.

Gruden made the decision to start Cousins this year, not Scot McCloughan. I agree that SM will have as large or larger a role in turning this franchise around if it happens. But its insane not to give Gruden some credit for what's happened so far this season. Anyone who saw Griffin v. the Lions this preseason knows what kind of season we were looking at.

[markshark84]

Also, I didn't say it was my expectation that Gruden could turn RGIII around, I said it was the Danny's and that was obviously a big part of why he was hired.

And this is why I said its a BS criticism. We're criticizing Gruden for failing to deliver on Snyder's unrealistic expectations for RG3. Instead, he took charge, made a decision as the head coach and is attempting to deliver a winning season instead.

Well, not if you believe, like some do, that he should be held accountable for not doing what he was hired to do.

I honestly think that is one of the reasons why we've had so many HCs since Danny boy purchased the team. Danny hires these guys and asks them to win with the players he and whichever yes-man president of operations he hires --- which is basically an impossible task.

For Gruden, I agree with you that he was hired to resurrect RGIII. Gruden coached/analyzed RGIII for one season and named him starter for year 2 (why is a different question altogether). Now that Scot is the actual GM, Gruden knew he could pick a QB based on play and not on who was Danny boy's teachers-pet. So he benched him.

After all, Gruden knows that Danny boy loves firing people. And if he's going to get fired, he'll at least get fired doing what he thinks is best.

[riggofan]

I just think (and wished) RG would have gotten most of the reps in most of the games last year so the team could have put it to rest. Not like we were winning anyhting last year. If that had happened they may have moved on from him already??

Yeah that seems like a legit criticism to me. The QB carousel last year was ridiculous and didn't do anything to clear up the situation.

I'm not 100% sure it would have changed much though. All we heard when Griffin was in was that the o-line was so terrible.

[riggofan]

I honestly think that is one of the reasons why we've had so many HCs since Danny boy purchased the team. Danny hires these guys and asks them to win with the players he and whichever yes-man president of operations he hires --- which is basically an impossible task.

Yes.

Except Gibbs of course who picked his QBs himself.

[hitmandm]

Gruden gave RG3 no chance. That is what he was hired to do regardless if anyone else thinks differently. The reason why he gave RG3 no chance is what will most likely cost Fat Gruden his job either this year or next. Fat Gruden did not give RG3 a chance because he cannot adjust his scheme to anything but the one and only way he does things. He cannot adapt. It was his MO in Cincy and it is his MO here. Sure me might not have liked RG3 for valid personal reasons, but abandoning the directive of your boss 3 preseason games into your first year as coach after you said you were going to do those very things will get you fired anywhere, in any industry because the boss cannot trust you to your word and your ability.

Fat Gruden's teams are getting lucky and that is why they are winning games. Romo being hurt. The Giants missing most of their offensive line. We cannot win games where the opposing team is competent. In fact, we get embarrassed by those teams constantly. Cosuins should have had Cromartie pick 6 him, but for whatever lucky reason it was dropped. Cousins cannot win anything for us. Teams lose to us. TB getting a franchise record setting penalties, Eli throwing three picks behing a make-shift Oline- both games at home and won by a total of 7 points.

Cousins needs to do it and not every other week when teams are imploding. The guy goes from embarrassment to perfect rating to embarrassment in a span of three games over and over.

DS needs to look at these results in a clear light and come to the only conclusion he can: Gruden is not the coach of this team. We are worse than our record indicates and Cousins is not performing as a starting QB in this league.

[DEHog]

Gruden gave RG3 no chance. That is what he was hired to do regardless if anyone else thinks differently. The reason why he gave RG3 no chance is what will most likely cost Fat Gruden his job either this year or next. Fat Gruden did not give RG3 a chance because he cannot adjust his scheme to anything but the one and only way he does things. He cannot adapt. It was his MO in Cincy and it is his MO here. Sure me might not have liked RG3 for valid personal reasons, but abandoning the directive of your boss 3 preseason games into your first year as coach after you said you were going to do those very things will get you fired anywhere, in any industry because the boss cannot trust you to your word and your ability.

Fat Gruden's teams are getting lucky and that is why they are winning games. Romo being hurt. The Giants missing most of their offensive line. We cannot win games where the opposing team is competent. In fact, we get embarrassed by those teams constantly. Cosuins should have had Cromartie pick 6 him, but for whatever lucky reason it was dropped. Cousins cannot win anything for us. Teams lose to us. TB getting a franchise record setting penalties, Eli throwing three picks behing a make-shift Oline- both games at home and won by a total of 7 points.

Cousins needs to do it and not every other week when teams are imploding. The guy goes from embarrassment to perfect rating to embarrassment in a span of three games over and over.

DS needs to look at these results in a clear light and come to the only conclusion he can: Gruden is not the coach of this team. We are worse than our record indicates and Cousins is not performing as a starting QB in this league.

C'mom man..I mean really...Gruden is not that fat!!

[Deadskins]

Gruden gave RG3 no chance. That is what he was hired to do regardless if anyone else thinks differently. The reason why he gave RG3 no chance is what will most likely cost Fat Gruden his job either this year or next. Fat Gruden did not give RG3 a chance because he cannot adjust his scheme to anything but the one and only way he does things. He cannot adapt. It was his MO in Cincy and it is his MO here. Sure me might not have liked RG3 for valid personal reasons, but abandoning the directive of your boss 3 preseason games into your first year as coach after you said you were going to do those very things will get you fired anywhere, in any industry because the boss cannot trust you to your word and your ability.

Fat Gruden's teams are getting lucky and that is why they are winning games. Romo being hurt. The Giants missing most of their offensive line. We cannot win games where the opposing team is competent. In fact, we get embarrassed by those teams constantly. Cosuins should have had Cromartie pick 6 him, but for whatever lucky reason it was dropped. Cousins cannot win anything for us. Teams lose to us. TB getting a franchise record setting penalties, Eli throwing three picks behing a make-shift Oline- both games at home and won by a total of 7 points.

Cousins needs to do it and not every other week when teams are imploding. The guy goes from embarrassment to perfect rating to embarrassment in a span of three games over and over.

DS needs to look at these results in a clear light and come to the only conclusion he can: Gruden is not the coach of this team. We are worse than our record indicates and Cousins is not performing as a starting QB in this league.

C'mom man..I mean really...Gruden is not that fat!!

He's not Ryan (Buddy, Rex, or Rob) or Andy Reid fat, that's for sure.

[markshark84]

Gruden gave RG3 no chance. That is what he was hired to do regardless if anyone else thinks differently.

I think the majority of the people know Gruden was initially hired in an effort to resurrect Danny boy's teacher-pet.

The reason why he gave RG3 no chance is what will most likely cost Fat Gruden his job either this year or next.

So you are softening your stance...... I've seen that from other posters before. I thought you said it was DEFINITELY THIS YEAR. Now it may be next year......

but abandoning the directive of your boss 3 preseason games into your first year as coach after you said you were going to do those very things will get you fired anywhere, in any industry because the boss cannot trust you to your word and your ability.

Well, then RGIII must have been REALLY bad......

Fat Gruden's teams are getting lucky and that is why they are winning games. Romo being hurt.

We haven't played DAL yet......

The Giants missing most of their offensive line.

So were we....

Cosuins should have had Cromartie pick 6 him, but for whatever lucky reason it was dropped.

How can something be a "drop" if it never hit your hands......

DS needs to look at these results in a clear light and come to the only conclusion he can: Gruden is not the coach of this team. We are worse than our record indicates and Cousins is not performing as a starting QB in this league.

The results being we have the same record as we did in week 11 of the 2012 season? That Cousins is clearly improving and has the 5th best QBR over the past 3 games? That we are clearly better than we were 2014 and in 2014 we were better than we were in 2013? I don't think Gruden is the greatest, but we ARE improving. When that happens, you have to let thinks play out until it ends at least.

[StorminMormon86]

From Keim:

"When he benched Griffin for Cousins this summer, many in the locker room liked the move because it signaled that the players performing the best would play."

He was hired to win. He knew he would lose the locker room by sticking with Griffin, so he did what he needed to do.

So if SM was never hired everything would have gone down the same way? Snyder never interfered or influenced who played QB last year?

No of course not.

I've said previously that SM was the bridge between Gruden/Snyder and that SM was the one who advocated for Cousins to start the season more than anyone else. Without SM, we'd be having another QB carousel this year, IMO.

[StorminMormon86]

From Keim: "When he benched Griffin for Cousins this summer, many in the locker room liked the move because it signaled that the players performing the best would play." Gruden was hired to win. He knew he would lose the locker room by sticking with Griffin, so he did what he needed to do.

So if SM was never hired everything would have gone down the same way? Snyder never interfered or influenced who played QB last year?

good luck with trying to get this guy to see reason when it comes to Kirk Cousins

What the hell are you talking about? He's talking about Snyder interfering with this team to start his favorite QB. This has nothing to do with Cousins.

[StorminMormon86]

Also, I didn't say it was my expectation that Gruden could turn RGIII around, I said it was the Danny's and that was obviously a big part of why he was hired.

And this is why I said its a BS criticism. We're criticizing Gruden for failing to deliver on Snyder's unrealistic expectations for RG3. Instead, he took charge, made a decision as the head coach and is attempting to deliver a winning season instead.

Well, not if you believe, like some do, that he should be held accountable for not doing what he was hired to do. I'm fine with the way things worked out IF we can go on to accomplish bigger goals as a team (though I probably give SM more credit for that than JG). If we are going to be a 3 to 5 win team every year anyway, then why not hold Gruden at least to the standard for which he was hired?

He won 4 games in year one solely because he was forced into starting Griffin from the powers above. I'd say THIS year is his first real evaluation year, where he can finally be a head coach of a team and not one player.

[SkinsJock]

I didn't say it was my expectation that Gruden could turn RGIII around, I said it was the Danny's and that was obviously a big part of why he was hired.

this is why I said its a BS criticism. We're criticizing Gruden for failing to deliver on Snyder's unrealistic expectations for RG3. Instead, he took charge, made a decision as the head coach and is attempting to deliver a winning season instead.

[cowboykillerzRGiii]

I don't like that Gruden was brought in to work with Robert and develop him...

Gruden was hired to coach the Washington Redskins...not coach one player.

Funny u knit pick my post just to get a back and forth.

I explained why I wasn't in favor of HOW we got here... But that it's clear that this is the best path NOW.

Coach one player? Like I implied that was his only job? Helping RGiii convert to a pro style offense was DEFINITELY something he signed up for, but bailed on. Not liking how, doesn't mean he didn't have a good why... Gruden made a lot of poor choices last year, and handled some matters poorly- ultimately that can be expected from a rookie HC though

The last couple pages have gotten pretty silly.. are we that bored on Dallas week??

Here bro-

#HTTR4LIFE #TeamKirk #CaptainKirk #YouLikeThat #BEATDULLASS

[riggofan]

I didn't say it was my expectation that Gruden could turn RGIII around, I said it was the Danny's and that was obviously a big part of why he was hired.

this is why I said its a BS criticism. We're criticizing Gruden for failing to deliver on Snyder's unrealistic expectations for RG3. Instead, he took charge, made a decision as the head coach and is attempting to deliver a winning season instead.

I know I know man. Its a great point you're making. If we're not winning with RG3 under center, are we REALLY winning?

[markshark84]

But that it's clear that this is the best path NOW.

Coach one player? Like I implied that was his only job? Helping RGiii convert to a pro style offense was DEFINITELY something he signed up for, but bailed on. Not liking how, doesn't mean he didn't have a good why... Gruden made a lot of poor choices last year, and handled some matters poorly- ultimately that can be expected from a rookie HC though

I agree with ALL of this. The only thing I'd change is the term "bailed". I'd prefer "after reviewing RGIII's ability and offseason progress, decided not to pursue". But honestly, "bailed" isn't that far off.

Gruden made a TON of mistakes last year and IMHO, some of those were attributable to the frustration of being FORCED by Danny boy to play RGIII when he knew Cousins was the better QB (what transpired in the QB shuffling, benchings, etc. last year is a different story). That being said, he was also a rookie HC and could have also been inexperience or a combination of both.

Now I start getting off topic......
I think Gruden is benefiting HEAVILY from Scot being our GM. I have never in my life agreed with basically anything our FO has done until Scot got here (and I am serious --- nothing other than the Gibbs hiring), and then, suddenly, I'm agreeing with everything our FO is doing.

As an example (not comparison): Gibbs benefited from Beathard far more than I think most truly understand. A GM is FAR more important than a HC. IMHO, the GM IS the most important person within the organization (in situations where the owner knows what he's doing) --- and the SOLE reason the skins have been a disaster since Danny boy took over (not taking into account the fact we have the worst owner in all of sports). And IMHO, if Scot weren't here, we'd already be looking for a new HC --- because we'd probably be in the 2-9 range.