Gameday thread - Redskins Vs. Browns

[Deadskins]

fellas our QB situation is a nightmare rg3 is done in DC ... cousins is questionable at best ... mccoy is a backup ....the QB that will turn this team around is yet to be picked in the NFL draft.

No, it's not. I don't believe RGIII is done here. I don't think Cousins is "questionable at best." And McCoy could be the starter on several teams in the league right now. Our situation is nowhere near as dire as you make it out to be.

[Deadskins]

Cousins currently has as many interceptions as TDs in his career, a 1 to 1 ration. A 1.35 TDs to 1 interception ratio is good enough to be rated in the top 50 QBs of all time, assuming 1500 attempts. Kirk has to improve his TD to INT from a 1 to 1 to 1.35 to 1 ratio to among the top 50 greats.

Interesting that you would post this without even thinking to check where RGIII's ratio is. For the record it's 40 TDs to 23 INTs. Nearly 2 to 1. What one stat in the NFL most closely correlates to wins and losses? Turnovers. This ends your argument before it even gets started.

[Deadskins]

If RGIII payed as good as Cousins we wouldn't be having this conversation, the RGIII disciples would be signing his praises! But he didn't, did he.

And if Garcon catches that ball, you wouldn't be thinking RGIII got outplayed by Cousins and we also wouldn't be having this discussion. But he didn't, did he?

[OldSchool]

Cousins currently has as many interceptions as TDs in his career, a 1 to 1 ration. A 1.35 TDs to 1 interception ratio is good enough to be rated in the top 50 QBs of all time, assuming 1500 attempts. Kirk has to improve his TD to INT from a 1 to 1 to 1.35 to 1 ratio to among the top 50 greats.

Interesting that you would post this without even thinking to check where RGIII's ratio is. For the record it's 40 TDs to 23 INTs. Nearly 2 to 1. What one stat in the NFL most closely correlates to wins and losses? Turnovers. This ends your argument before it even gets started.

I was discussing Cousins issue which is turnovers. Figure out how to get Cousins to run the offense like he does with 20 to 30% fewer INTs and you have a quality starter. Can he clean up his game with more playing time? I think there is a decent chance he could.

Griffin had a much longer list of issues in 2014. To me he just seemed lost on the field waiting to see a guy cut and get open when Gruden's WCO demands so much more from a QB. He didn't toss an excessive number of picks but he was capable of going 2 or 3 quarters withou making anything happen last year. Will he be better this year? I don't know he only played a couple of series this game so he didn't really have enough time to show us much.

Of the two I think Cousins has a much higher upside because it appears he thinks a lot faster than Griffin who I doubt will be able to stick in the league. Maybe I'll be surprised and Griffin will show us he can start running Gruden's offense faster this year. Robert hasn't had a chance to show us yet.

[StorminMormon86]

This is why I'm in the camp that this should have been an open competition, and not some sort of contest to dethrone Griffin. You can't "dethrone" him, if you aren't getting any reps with the 1st team, IMO. Because, as people like to point out, Cousins had his chance last year to take the position and run with it, but couldn't. But so did Griffin. Both in 2013 and last year when he came back from injury. And guess what? He squandered his chance too. I have said it time and time again, but I have zero faith in McCoy. I'm leaning more towards neither Griffin or Cousins will be our answer, but I'd love to be wrong about that.

[StorminMormon86]

He hinted that Gruden was given some sort of ultimatum (from Snyder, Allen, or McCloughan) because of his quick reversal from "open competition" to naming Griffin the #1 days later.

That "reversal" was a fabrication on the part of the media. I respect Brian Mitchell and don't know his exact words behind the hinting you're talking about, but I wouldn't hesitate to say that he's wrong if he believes Gruden was saying there would be a totally open, no-prior-preference competition at QB this year. Gruden's always said the same thing: Griffin is number one on the depth chart going into the offseason, and that can change as the players compete.

It was right before a commercial break, and I'm paraphrasing here, but he was answering a question about how fans feel that there is a certain order from Snyder forcing Gruden to play Griffin, and he said he wasn't sure about that but it makes him wonder the way Gruden said 'open competition at all positions' and then clarifying his remarks days later.

[StorminMormon86]

Let the chips fall where they may. We'll either get a starter out of it or know that RGIII had every chance he could have reasonably expected to succeed. I won't be sad if we have to move on.

The only caveat to this, and I agree with your statement about Griffin being given every chance to succeed, is that we might have missed the boat on Cousins. Because I don't think he's been given a reasonable amount of chances and opportunities to succeed.

[OldSchool]

Let the chips fall where they may. We'll either get a starter out of it or know that RGIII had every chance he could have reasonably expected to succeed. I won't be sad if we have to move on.

The only caveat to this, and I agree with your statement about Griffin being given every chance to succeed, is that we might have missed the boat on Cousins. Because I don't think he's been given a reasonable amount of chances and opportunities to succeed.

I agree. Cousins has only made 9 starts and has repeatedly flashed starter ability before undermining himself with interceptions. He's played enough to show us he could possibly become a quality starter but not enough to have enough time to correct the flaws in his game. Griffin with 36 starts has had 4 times the opportunities. I can't imagine Kirk signing another contract with Washington unless he clearly takes over the job this fall.

Barring an injury I expect the Skins to go the distance with Griffin even if he struggles. Maybe if Griffin is flat for 10-12 games they'll give the last 4 or 5 to Kirk. Even if Kirk has some modest success it's tough for me to imagine Dan Snyder making as big an investment in Kirk as another team. Snyder is hugely invested in Griffin and may have found Cousins annoying rather than an asset these past 3 year so I think the most likely outcome is Kirk picks up a high end back up contract with another team that offers a chance to compete and win the job.

[Deadskins]

Barring an injury I expect the Skins to go the distance with Griffin even if he struggles. Maybe if Griffin is flat for 10-12 games they'll give the last 4 or 5 to Kirk. Even if Kirk has some modest success it's tough for me to imagine Dan Snyder making as big an investment in Kirk as another team. Snyder is hugely invested in Griffin and may have found Cousins annoying rather than an asset these past 3 year so I think the most likely outcome is Kirk picks up a high end back up contract with another team that offers a chance to compete and win the job.

I don't think so. If Griffin struggles, I think the decision to bench him will be made much easier by the fact that we signed the 2016 option. He is only guaranteed that money in the case of injury. So if he isn't getting the job done, then they will sit him to avoid injury and having to pay him next year.

[SkinsJock]

win/win - Griffin shows that he's worth keeping and we go with Cousins or McCoy as the back up

or

Griffin does not show that he's a capable NFL QB and we go with Cousins or McCoy

this will not take long as they will not risk injury to Griffin unless he's worth keeping for the long term

I don't see Cousins as a starting QB for the Redskins in 2017

[StorminMormon86]

He hinted that Gruden was given some sort of ultimatum (from Snyder, Allen, or McCloughan) because of his quick reversal from "open competition" to naming Griffin the #1 days later.

That "reversal" was a fabrication on the part of the media. I respect Brian Mitchell and don't know his exact words behind the hinting you're talking about, but I wouldn't hesitate to say that he's wrong if he believes Gruden was saying there would be a totally open, no-prior-preference competition at QB this year. Gruden's always said the same thing: Griffin is number one on the depth chart going into the offseason, and that can change as the players compete.

This isn't from Gruden, but it's from McCloughan back in May.

"It is open. It is open, you know, but it’s Robert’s job to lose. It’s definitely wide open. And the thing about it, what Bruce [Allen] and Dan [Snyder] did before I got here, they did what’s best for the organization. He’s a really talented quarterback. I’ve been lucky to be around Brett Favre. I’ve been lucky to be around Matt Hasselbeck. I’ve been around Alex Smith. I’ve been around Russell Wilson. I’ve seen how they’re wired and how they do things, and like I said, all three of these guys have characteristics that really, really intrigue me. And I can promise you this: the guy that wins the job is going to be the starter Day 1. And right now, Robert has the opportunity to walk out there Day 1, he gets first snaps."

[OldSchool]

Interesting thought that the 16M option year money could shorten the runway and raise the bar for Griffin in 2015. You guys might be right. If that is what they are actually thinking than I think they owe it to Griffin to give him more reps in preseason than a returning starter usually gets so he has every opportunity to get out of the blocks quickly in 2016 really show something in the first 5 or 6 games.

[Deadskins]

This isn't from Gruden, but it's from McCloughan back in May.

"It is open. It is open, you know, but it’s Robert’s job to lose. It’s definitely wide open. And the thing about it, what Bruce [Allen] and Dan [Snyder] did before I got here, they did what’s best for the organization. He’s a really talented quarterback. I’ve been lucky to be around Brett Favre. I’ve been lucky to be around Matt Hasselbeck. I’ve been around Alex Smith. I’ve been around Russell Wilson. I’ve seen how they’re wired and how they do things, and like I said, all three of these guys have characteristics that really, really intrigue me. And I can promise you this: the guy that wins the job is going to be the starter Day 1. And right now, Robert has the opportunity to walk out there Day 1, he gets first snaps."

So there you have it. It is an open competition, it's just that RGIII is currently in the #1 spot. So no reversal, as certain posters continue to maintain.

[Irn-Bru]

He hinted that Gruden was given some sort of ultimatum (from Snyder, Allen, or McCloughan) because of his quick reversal from "open competition" to naming Griffin the #1 days later.

That "reversal" was a fabrication on the part of the media. I respect Brian Mitchell and don't know his exact words behind the hinting you're talking about, but I wouldn't hesitate to say that he's wrong if he believes Gruden was saying there would be a totally open, no-prior-preference competition at QB this year. Gruden's always said the same thing: Griffin is number one on the depth chart going into the offseason, and that can change as the players compete.

This isn't from Gruden, but it's from McCloughan back in May.

"It is open. It is open, you know, but it’s Robert’s job to lose. It’s definitely wide open. And the thing about it, what Bruce [Allen] and Dan [Snyder] did before I got here, they did what’s best for the organization. He’s a really talented quarterback. I’ve been lucky to be around Brett Favre. I’ve been lucky to be around Matt Hasselbeck. I’ve been around Alex Smith. I’ve been around Russell Wilson. I’ve seen how they’re wired and how they do things, and like I said, all three of these guys have characteristics that really, really intrigue me. And I can promise you this: the guy that wins the job is going to be the starter Day 1. And right now, Robert has the opportunity to walk out there Day 1, he gets first snaps."

I don't see any contradiction. Gruden said that Robert is the presumed starter. McCloughan said that, quote, it's Robert's job to lose — i.e., he is the presumed starter. McCloughan here says that there will be competition for the starting spot, and I don't remember Gruden ever denying this. In fact if I recall correctly he's said as much himself on other occasions.

Nothing to see here.

[emoses14]

I've missed the last few pages on this thread (though unsurprisingly it seems to have been all Griffin, all the time); so I thought I'd just leave these items here, apologies if some or all of this has already been covered:

1. The Coaches feelings on the Thursday performance by Griffin: http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-reds ... on-showing

The whole article is worth a read as it includes analyses from Keim (providing the view point of an educated observer) and the coaching staff/Gruden.

2. John Keim on Colt McCoy and the unfairly glass ceilinged Kirk Cousins:

However, as has been written many times, nobody else has proven they should be the No. 1 guy. Others have skills to like, but the flaws (interceptions, arm strength, whatever) have prevented them from either holding onto the job or convincing everyone in the organization that they are a better alternative. They have Kirk Cousins as the No. 2 for now, and I would agree he’s ahead of Colt McCoy based on what we’ve seen.

Keim comments re: Griffin, for fairness:

The Washington Redskins continue to be upbeat regarding quarterback Robert Griffin III. There clearly is a concerted effort to avoid mistakes of the past in terms of criticizing him publicly and in some cases privately. Nothing wrong with that -- I don't blame them for being this way at all -- but it was one notable difference in camp. As for his play, Griffin at times looked sharp and other times inconsistent. There is a feeling that he's done a better job going through progressions, etc. His deep ball has looked good this summer; the fade route in the red zone has not. I can’t say that I’ve seen huge changes in his pocket movement -- but the games will help more considering in practice some plays are continued that would have been sacks. I think the coaches will limit his time in that area with play designs: screens, bootlegs, quick outs/hitches and deep play-action. He will still have to improve, but they do know that if the run game doesn’t work they will struggle. Griffin did look more relaxed than even last summer. But to hold onto the No. 1 job for an extended time, there is still more to prove as you would, or at least should, expect. This was the first step for Griffin.

3. The GM (reporting by El Bashir ):

Redskins GM Scot McCloughan says he was pleased with Robert Griffin III’s performance in the team’s preseason opener.

“I liked it a lot. I liked it a lot,” McCloughan said Sunday. “I see improvement.”

“I liked it a lot,” McCloughan repeated a third time. “I see confidence. I see ball out on time. I see a good football player.”

I wonder why the coach and GM are having such a hard time seeing that Cousins is the better option like John Q fan does? Must be that Dan Snyder has already made a meat puppet out of Scot, too. Only possible explanation.

[Countertrey]

^^^
Someone desperately needs a sarcasm smiley... LOL.

Nice.

[emoses14]

^^^
Someone desperately needs a sarcasm smiley... LOL.

Nice.

That, and a good bottle of Michter's, would be lovely. Can someone get on that (preferably the Michter's first, but beggars can't be choosers )?

[StorminMormon86]

Keim has also hinted at a certain pecking order with regards to who decides to start at QB.

In response to a fan's question on twitter as to why Cousins was relegated to 3rd string last year after 6 games, he responded:

"Because the turnovers were absolute killers and he did not respond well to them. If you're trying to knock out the former No. 2 pick in the draft - and you're a backup -- you must throw haymakers and Cousins threw some nice punches but no knockouts. That said, and I'm sure some get tired of hearing this, but Cousins still has fans on the coaching staff and among the players. That's a definite. Some coaches felt Cousins made some throws the others just couldn't make (some vs. Philadelphia; Arizona). And I know there was a feeling by some of them that Cousins got a raw deal last year, which suggests to me that the decision to play others was not solely up to them. He'll get more chances, but he has to clearly outplay the others and while at times he looked good other times he did not."

And again, more recently a similar question was asked (noting that Gruden and SM should see how clear it was that the offense looked much sharper with Cousins), and his response:

"You left a name off that list [Daniel Snyder], one that is quite important. I think they're trying really hard to see if it can work with Robert Griffin III. They've clearly done all they can in the offseason to restore confidence (he says he never lost any) and make him comfortable. I was a big believer in having an open competition, but also know that would have led to the circus returning to town. Kirk Cousins looked sharp Thursday, albeit vs. backups. Griffin had ups and downs vs. the starters; loved the bootleg and his ability to throw deep off play-action. But I liked the way Cousins handled the pocket most of the time. I'll be curious to see what happens if Cousins clearly outplays Griffin in the preseason -- and then Griffin struggles early in the regular season. If they don't make a move after, say, a couple games then you have to wonder what else is at play. The problem for Cousins remains: interceptions. They'll have to build up that trust that he'll improve in that area. And they'll have to convince others in the organization it would be a good move."

This isn't some fan induced conspiracy. When you have John Keim (probably one of two Skins reporters who report facts without agendas) hinting around that Snyder needs convincing on who to start at QB, that's a problem.

http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-reds ... rk-cousins

http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-reds ... ally-start

[riggofan]

When you have John Keim (probably one of two Skins reporters who report facts without agendas) hinting around that Snyder needs convincing on who to start at QB, that's a problem.

Media bias. He probably has an agenda.

[StorminMormon86]

Gruden admitted there was a competition during his press conference today...

For the #2 spot.