Gameday thread - Redskins Vs. Browns

[cowboykillerzRGiii]

I've read every days report from camp. Robert is smashing the other two and it's not even close.. bmitch often says what he thinks fans want to hear- hating on Griff is always a good way to get callers maybe idk, but evidence of Kirk being better is non existent

[Irn-Bru]

He hinted that Gruden was given some sort of ultimatum (from Snyder, Allen, or McCloughan) because of his quick reversal from "open competition" to naming Griffin the #1 days later.

That "reversal" was a fabrication on the part of the media. I respect Brian Mitchell and don't know his exact words behind the hinting you're talking about, but I wouldn't hesitate to say that he's wrong if he believes Gruden was saying there would be a totally open, no-prior-preference competition at QB this year. Gruden's always said the same thing: Griffin is number one on the depth chart going into the offseason, and that can change as the players compete.

[StorminMormon86]

I've read every days report from camp. Robert is smashing the other two and it's not even close.. bmitch often says what he thinks fans want to hear- hating on Griff is always a good way to get callers maybe idk, but evidence of Kirk being better is non existent

Did you not see how much better the offense looked during the first preseason game?

[OldSchool]

He hinted that Gruden was given some sort of ultimatum (from Snyder, Allen, or McCloughan) because of his quick reversal from "open competition" to naming Griffin the #1 days later.

That "reversal" was a fabrication on the part of the media. I respect Brian Mitchell and don't know his exact words behind the hinting you're talking about, but I wouldn't hesitate to say that he's wrong if he believes Gruden was saying there would be a totally open, no-prior-preference competition at QB this year. Gruden's always said the same thing: Griffin is number one on the depth chart going into the offseason, and that can change as the players compete.

Oh pleeeeeaaaaseee! Gruden said he'd conduct an "open competition" and very quickly had to go out and tell the media Griffin was #1, would work with the 1s and McCoy and Cousins would be compete for the backup spot. Everyone familiar with sports understands what an "open competition" is and no serious person would confuse that with " we have depth and the #1 can be replaced if he doesn't perform." Gruden clearly thought he had the authority to conduct an open competition for the QB job. The 180 degree reversal days later obviously followed Gruden getting counseled by someone on the extent of his authority. Conducting an open competition for Griffin's isn't one of Gruden's prerogatives.

[Irn-Bru]

I wrote about this at the time: viewtopic.php?p=649891#p649891

I welcome you to prove me wrong with actual quotes — not your summary of events or WaPo's version. I don't have time to look into this again, but I have a pretty clear memory of looking at the actual words from Gruden's mouth and seeing no contradiction whatsoever. Until then, as far as I'm concerned calling it a "reversal" is just repeating a fabrication that became a meme.

[Irn-Bru]

Yeah, here are the relevant news articles:

http://wapo.st/1DVu2fs
http://wapo.st/1NiEoYT

No transcripts there, but as I remembered, even with WaPo straining to make the most out of this, it's obviously just a fabrication. You've put "open competition" in quotes, so maybe there is a quote out there that can prove me wrong . . . but again, I doubt it.

And at any rate, what seems to have happened is this:

- Gruden at the end of last season didn't want to say exactly what the depth chart at QB was going into next season until he had time to watch all of the film and evaluate his options
- He took some weeks to do that and also met with the front office
- His first announcement following that evaluation period was that it was going to be Griffin's job to lose: that he was penciled in as the starter, that he was going to be taking first team reps, but that there would be competition and another player could grab the spot if Griffin didn't improve

What I'm pretty certain didn't happen was that Gruden had a "quick reversal from 'open competition' to naming Griffin the #1 days later."

How about putting this one to rest?

[Chris Luva Luva]

Griffin looked like complete unfettered ass compared to Kirk. It has nothing to do about the level of competition either of them was up against. The confidence with which Kirk operates within the pocket is 10x better than RGIII. If they start out 0-3, wave goodbye to RGIII.

And I wouldn't be shocked to see him out of the league in a few years. Very few teams would be willing to revamp their offense for a backup QB. There would only be a handful of teams that could use his "skill set". Panthers, SEA, San Fran. That's it.

[Irn-Bru]

Griffin looked like complete unfettered ass compared to Kirk. It has nothing to do about the level of competition either of them was up against. The confidence with which Kirk operates within the pocket is 10x better than RGIII.

Kirk certainly looked very good. He has always run the offense with confidence and played crisply.

But RGIII didn't look bad, as you suggest. Out of eight attempts, I'd say he threw one unquestionably bad pass and two others that might have been bad (hard to know who to blame). He missed open receivers, which is concerning as that was a problem last year. He had a couple of small problems with his fundamentals that others have pointed out. But I think he played competently and showed enough to continue as the starter. He played well enough, IMHO, that he will probably carry this forward as a confidence booster and something to build on. These are good things.

If they start out 0-3, wave goodbye to RGIII.

And I wouldn't be shocked to see him out of the league in a few years. Very few teams would be willing to revamp their offense for a backup QB. There would only be a handful of teams that could use his "skill set". Panthers, SEA, San Fran. That's it.

I basically agree with this. He's clearly at a crossroads in his career. A poor start to this season with the team will undoubtedly be strike three, and he would face an uphill battle to even stay on an NFL roster in the next few years.

But there really is nothing to lose for us at this point, which is why I'm looking forward to seeing the beginning of the season unfold. Let the chips fall where they may. We'll either get a starter out of it or know that RGIII had every chance he could have reasonably expected to succeed. I won't be sad if we have to move on.

[aswas71788]

Before everyone starts singing Cousin's praises, remember how great he looked when he went in for RGII last year. When he had a chance to solidify his claim to the QB position, he promptly threw numerous interceptions which were disastrous. I am not a solid supporter of RGIII as he did not impress me against Cleveland, but doubt Cousin's is his replacement until I see him function for several games. Don't get me wrong, I would love for one of the QB's to step up but have my doubts. Next years draft class is supposed to be maxi-deep in quarterbacks, maybe we get one then.

[Scottskins]

I personally believe griffin has the ability to be a good qb. I also believe he's subconsciously still afraid of getting hurt. Last year all of our qbs (who i think can all succeed with protection) were running for their lives constantly. Scott has assembled the makings of a great oline. The question will be if griffin can survive and eventually gain confidence over fear while that line solidifies. If not, i have no doubt that cousins will step in and play well. Good oline, running game and defense make it easy for a qb to build confidence and succeed. We're very lucky to have a real gm finally!

[OldSchool]

Cousins has had 9 starts over 3 seasons and looked like the guy we just saw against the Browns for stretches in those games and than he has had some God awful quarters. I think we've seen enough to know he can function well in Gruden's system the question I have is can coaching and more experience reduce the turnovers down to a reasonable level. I don't know the answer but my guess the cause of his problems are a combination of inconsistent footwork, deciding to quickly, staring down receivers, poor risk/reward decisions and underlying that is him trying too hard trying to emerge from Griffins shadow. I think his issues can be mitigated with coaching and adjustments.

As for Griffin, I don't think he had enough time against Cleveland to show us if he has started to improve. Maybe if he'd have played the entire first half he would have heated up and started to riddle the Browns like Cousins did out of the chute. I agree with the other expressing concern about the number of hits he took. It looked to me he got nailed when he froze after taking a 5 step drop. He didn't or couldn't pull the trigger at the bottom of his drop but he failed to climb back into the pocket before making his throw and took a hit that was avoidable. Last year he probably would have drifted off to the right out of the pocket and might have gotten sacked before the throw so this may be modest improvement but not the proper shifting in the pocket he needs to adopt.

[DarthMonk]

Ya... story bro.

Robert did his job to get points and receivers let us down. The fades weren't great passes (albeit tough ones) but one had a chance and the drops were blatant. Cousins took a sack where Rob avoided them.
I'd call it a drawl with an edge to Rob going vs ones and throwing a PERFECT deep ball

Garcon certainly should have caught the ball for a TD but the ball was late, over the wrong shoulder, and a little short.



I seem to recall Robert pulling it down, dodging, then throwing a low liner that was almost all arm with someone in his face.

[cowboykillerzRGiii]

I've read every days report from camp. Robert is smashing the other two and it's not even close.. bmitch often says what he thinks fans want to hear- hating on Griff is always a good way to get callers maybe idk, but evidence of Kirk being better is non existent

Did you not see how much better the offense looked during the first preseason game?

That's completely subjective, and isn't equating all the variables. Kirk is supposed to look good vs backups and bums in his 2nd year in a system that he was already pretty comfortable with (similar to the pro style he ran in Michigan).

Maybe I just measure progress different. Robert avoiding sacks and making good choices had me optimistic. The two dropped passes accounted for, paint a similar picture to Cousins' performance had the wideouts did their job; Robert did his part.

People have short term memory with these two.. I remember all the good AND the bad. Rex Cousins has no balls and folds like a house of cards when the pressure is on, or worse like after a setback. That is HARD to change. I wonder if they have a bounce back stat.. Like in Golf, how do you respond after a double bogey? Another bad hole or a birdy? Kirk jus doesn't have it- in my opinion of course.

[cowboykillerzRGiii]

Ya... story bro.

Robert did his job to get points and receivers let us down. The fades weren't great passes (albeit tough ones) but one had a chance and the drops were blatant. Cousins took a sack where Rob avoided them.
I'd call it a drawl with an edge to Rob going vs ones and throwing a PERFECT deep ball

Garcon certainly should have caught the ball for a TD but the ball was late, over the wrong shoulder, and a little short.



I seem to recall Robert pulling it down, dodging, then throwing a low liner that was almost all arm with someone in his face.

I consider a ball hitting the receiver in stride in the bread basket where defenders can't make a play on it pretty close to perfect... But I'll give you that, no, it wasn't perfect. I think it was pretty damn good tho- IMO over the left shoulder is easier to bring in, the ball was put out of harms reach, and only Garçon had a play on it. He doesn't slow much if at all and gets hit in the chest so I don't think short is fair.. nor do I have any desire to dissect every Kirk throw

[redskinz4ever]

fellas our QB situation is a nightmare rg3 is done in DC ... cousins is questionable at best ... mccoy is a backup ....the QB that will turn this team around is yet to be picked in the NFL draft.

[DarthMonk]

People have short term memory with these two.. I remember all the good AND the bad. Rex Cousins has no balls and folds like a house of cards when the pressure is on, or worse like after a setback. That is HARD to change. I wonder if they have a bounce back stat.. Like in Golf, how do you respond after a double bogey? Another bad hole or a birdy? Kirk jus doesn't have it- in my opinion of course.

Good points. If it's true of "Rex Cousins" (love it) it really is HARD to change.

Jury is still out, on RGIII and the Captain (Kirk) IMO.

[cowboykillerzRGiii]

fellas our QB situation is a nightmare rg3 is done in DC ... cousins is questionable at best ... mccoy is a backup ....the QB that will turn this team around is yet to be picked in the NFL draft.

Yaaa.. I just don't see Rg3 as "done in dc".. with him gaining confidence through positive plays, the sky is the limit. He has the tebowesque IT factor, the desire to win at the highest level, and works his tail off. Now that he (finally!) Has a QB coach to help him focus on the right areas, he should continue to grow as a passer. His accuracy and arm strength is by far superior to anything we've had behind center in as long as I can remember. Has he gotten gun shy in the pro style O after serious injury (rightfully so)? Sure. Is he so shell shocked that he runs in fear from hits? Far from it. IF he leaves after poor play, the odds are in his favor of landing elsewhere and becoming what those of us envisioned on draft night Circa 2012

[Hooligan]

Rex Cousins has no balls and folds like a house of cards when the pressure is on, or worse like after a setback. That is HARD to change. I wonder if they have a bounce back stat.. Like in Golf, how do you respond after a double bogey? Another bad hole or a birdy? Kirk jus doesn't have it- in my opinion of course.

That's Cousins' biggest flaw, and I think it may be one of those intangibles that you can't teach. He doesn't have the guts and self confidence to put a poor throw behind him and rebound. That's like a coffin nail in a QB's career. He'll be a backup forever if that doesn't improve, no matter how accurate he is or how smoothly he runs the offense.

[cowboykillerzRGiii]

Rex Cousins has no balls and folds like a house of cards when the pressure is on, or worse like after a setback. That is HARD to change. I wonder if they have a bounce back stat.. Like in Golf, how do you respond after a double bogey? Another bad hole or a birdy? Kirk jus doesn't have it- in my opinion of course.

That's Cousins' biggest flaw, and I think it may be one of those intangibles that you can't teach. He doesn't have the guts and self confidence to put a poor throw behind him and rebound. That's like a coffin nail in a QB's career. He'll be a backup forever if that doesn't improve, no matter how accurate he is or how smoothly he runs the offense.

Precisely.
And although we've gotten a mixed bag from Robert, we have seen him pick up a WEAK team and grind out wins.. comebacks. Title games. Primetime wins. Most accurate rookie in the history of the sport. Deal with drama... And he's shown he is a fighter.
To me he must be supremely mentally tough to endure the *sh$t* that is DC, and the highs and lows he's faced. Weaker souls go the jamarcous Russel route and take hot dogs to the face enroute to oblivion. Can Kirk GrossMan turn it around? Sure. Robert craps the bed? Most already plan on it. My money at this point in time is on the more gifted athlete a and his strong desire to be the best!
So long as it spells Ws, I'm on board for either!! !!!

[OldSchool]

Cousins has made 9 starts over 3 years. In my opinion all a reasonable observer can conclude after his 9 starts is he is capable of running a WCO at a high level of efficiency for periods of time but he needs to dramatically reduce his turnovers to become a reliable starter. Can he do that with additional starts and coaching? I don't know the answer to that question but his harshest detractors on this board vigorously assert Griffin's potential for improvement and excuse his many shortcomings on inexperience despite his 36 starts.

That's right Griffin has made 4 times as many starts as Cousins and we are still looking to see if Robert has learned how to use his pocket, call audibles, change protections, quickly and accurately read the defense and go through his route fast enough to deliver the ball on time to the right guy in Gruden's office. Actually I have overstated things a bit Thursday we were 't eagerly to see if he can do all of those things we were looking for any evidence he had start making some progress towards acquiring these skills in year 4 after his 36 starts. I think every knowledgable observer will acknowledge edge Cousins does all those things during a substantial number of plays each and every time out. Unfortunately doing all these things a substantial amount of the time is not enough Cousins, for Kirk to progress needs to improve.

Cousins currently has as many interceptions as TDs in his career, a 1 to 1 ration. A 1.35 TDs to 1 interception ratio is good enough to be rated in the top 50 QBs of all time, assuming 1500 attempts. Kirk has to improve his TD to INT from a 1 to 1 to 1.35 to 1 ratio to among the top 50 greats. Check the link below. Am I the only one here who thinks this bright hard working kid with a very good arm is maybe capable of reducing his INTs by 20, 30, 40 or even 50 percent with coaching and more experience?

You naysayers can forget the Rex Grossman comparison because it doesn't fit. Grossman played for over 10 years and started multiple years and failed to clean up his INTs, that's on him not Kirk Cousins. Kirk Cousins has made just 9 starts I'd like to see what his game looks like after another 20-30 starts. It will probably happen some place.

http://www.footballdb.com/leaders/career-passing-tdintratio

[oj]

If RGIII payed as good as Cousins we wouldn't be having this conversation, the RGIII disciples would be signing his praises! But he didn't, did he.

[SkinsJock]

The only thing that matters is that Gruden makes the decision on which QB gives him the best chance at success

I don't think that he thinks that QB is Cousins at this time but that could change ...

[redskinz4ever]

with the commitment to running that could be just what the doctor ordered for RG3 or cousins

[OldSchool]

with the commitment to running that could be just what the doctor ordered for RG3 or cousins

Amen to this! I am eager to see how the running game goes next game to see if there is more signs of improvement.

[oj]

with the commitment to running that could be just what the doctor ordered for RG3 or cousins

Ahh, RedSkins Football! Alf added a little more muscle mass, he could be an absolute terror in the 4th quarter. I do like that.