I'd Trade Griffin

[Deadskins]

When has Kirk been given ONE chance to take us to the playoffs?? He's only gotten a chance to start when RG was injured. Many beleive Kirk out played and won the starting job last year but RG was still named the starter.
The only real question I have for you is what do you see in RG that makes you think he can perform like he did in 2012...becuase you keep using that season for you argument??

You need to check your memory. Kirk started the final three games last season, when RGIII was benched (not injured), and certainly didn't outplay anybody (we lost all three games). You might be confusing that with him outplaying RGIII in the pre-season this year, but even that is debatable.

In which Shanahan stated it was for health reason...no one thought RG was healthy...Any way would you classifiy that as a chance to "take us to the playoffs"? Which is what the post was about.
No I'm not confused...Kirk started the last three games in 2013...last year was 2014 this year hasn't happened yet...

Oh? So you're saying RGIII was named the starter when Kirk outplayed him from the bench in 2014? I'm confused, I thought RGIII replaced Colt McCoy when he came back from injury last season. And RGIII was benched by Shanny, ostensibly, to protect his health, not because he was injured. Kirk's chance to take us to the playoffs started game two last season Vs. Jacksonville. He won zero games as the starter (though, by baseball standards, he qualified for the win against the Jags). I say again, check your memory.

[DEHog]

Oh? So you're saying RGIII was named the starter when Kirk outplayed him from the bench in 2014? I'm confused, I thought RGIII replaced Colt McCoy when he came back from injury last season. And RGIII was benched by Shanny, ostensibly, to protect his health, not because he was injured. Kirk's chance to take us to the playoffs started game two last season Vs. Jacksonville. He won zero games as the starter (though, by baseball standards, he qualified for the win against the Jags). I say again, check your memory.

My reference was that many beleived that Kirk won the 2104 pre-season QB battle. So game two last season Kirk was givin the starting job for the rest of the season??

[riggofan]

Kirk had plenty of chances to take us to the playoffs? Did it happen?

You think we would have made the playoffs without Cousins in 2012??? You might want to go rewatch the Skins v. Ravens and Skins v. Browns games from that year. RGIII didn't do it alone that year.

[Deadskins]

Oh? So you're saying RGIII was named the starter when Kirk outplayed him from the bench in 2014? I'm confused, I thought RGIII replaced Colt McCoy when he came back from injury last season. And RGIII was benched by Shanny, ostensibly, to protect his health, not because he was injured. Kirk's chance to take us to the playoffs started game two last season Vs. Jacksonville. He won zero games as the starter (though, by baseball standards, he qualified for the win against the Jags). I say again, check your memory.

My reference was that many beleived that Kirk won the 2104 pre-season QB battle. So game two last season Kirk was givin the starting job for the rest of the season??

Where did I say that? I said he had the starter spot, and if he had played well enough, he could have made it impossible for Gruden to go back to RGIII once he was healthy. Instead, he played poorly enough to get himself benched in favor of Colt McCoy. Besides, now you're changing your tune to outplayed RGIII in the pre-season, which is not what you originally said, and what I called you on in your first post.

PS By the way, I happen to agree with you that Kirk outplayed Bob in the 2014 pre-season games, but we have no idea what was going on in practice, and pre-season is rarely a viable comparison to regular season play. There are a lot of players in those games who would not be playing, or not playing their best, come the games that count. You really can't promote the backup, based on a few pre-season quarters of play.

[DEHog]

Where did I say that? I said he had the starter spot, and if he had played well enough, he could have made it impossible for Gruden to go back to RGIII once he was healthy. Instead, he played poorly enough to get himself benched in favor of Colt McCoy. Besides, now you're changing your tune to outplayed RGIII in the pre-season, which is not what you originally said, and what I called you on in your first post.

The conversation is about Kirk having the chance to take us to the playoffs…I will disagree slightly with you on Kirk making it impossible for Gruden to go back to RG….I think first Kirk would have to convince Snyder as well and would have had to gone undefeated or lost only one game to do so….My point is Kirk was never going to be allowed to “play through” some adversity like RG has. How am I changing my tune I said…

Many believe Kirk out played and won the starting job last year but RG was still named the starter

….sorry that’s not clear enough for you??

PS By the way, I happen to agree with you that Kirk outplayed Bob in the 2014 pre-season games, but we have no idea what was going on in practice, and pre-season is rarely a viable comparison to regular season play. There are a lot of players in those games who would not be playing, or playing their best come the games that count.

I agree it’s hard to know without being at practice. My main point is this…I really don’t want to give up either QB until we’ve given them both the reigns to the teams. I feel like RG has been given that opportunity, now I like to see Cousins given that shot.

[Deadskins]

Where did I say that? I said he had the starter spot, and if he had played well enough, he could have made it impossible for Gruden to go back to RGIII once he was healthy. Instead, he played poorly enough to get himself benched in favor of Colt McCoy. Besides, now you're changing your tune to outplayed RGIII in the pre-season, which is not what you originally said, and what I called you on in your first post.

The conversation is about Kirk having the chance to take us to the playoffs…I will disagree slightly with you on Kirk making it impossible for Gruden to go back to RG….I think first Kirk would have to convince Snyder as well and would have had to gone undefeated or lost only one game to do so….My point is Kirk was never going to be allowed to “play through” some adversity like RG has.

No, he hasn't been given the same chances, but that comes with being a 4th round pick trying to unseat the 2nd pick overall, who captained the team to the playoffs in 2012. It can be done, though. Tom Brady came in for an injured Drew Bledsoe, and played himself into the starter's job. Kurt Warner did the same thing to Trent Green (though Green was out for the season, so slightly different). But the Rams wound up trading Green and keeping Warner.

How am I changing my tune I said…

Many believe Kirk out played and won the starting job last year but RG was still named the starter

….sorry that’s not clear enough for you??

I'm sure you'd agree that "outplayed last year," and "outplayed in the pre-season last year" are two vastly different things.

PS By the way, I happen to agree with you that Kirk outplayed Bob in the 2014 pre-season games, but we have no idea what was going on in practice, and pre-season is rarely a viable comparison to regular season play. There are a lot of players in those games who would not be playing, or playing their best come the games that count.

I agree it’s hard to know without being at practice. My main point is this…I really don’t want to give up either QB until we’ve given them both the reigns to the teams. I feel like RG has been given that opportunity, now I like to see Cousins given that shot.

Like I said, Kirk has been given the reigns twice now, and hasn't shown that he is ready to hold down the job. I understand that he hasn't been allowed to play through the adversity, but that's the way it is in the NFL. If he wants the starting job, he needs to perform with the limited opportunities he gets. No one is going to give you the starting QB job based on a few pre-season quarters, when you have an established starter on the roster.

[DEHog]

^^ When "out played" is coupled with "won the starting job and was named the starter" I think it's pretty obvious. I go back to my point he has never been named the starter...for what ever reasons. I'm not so sure (with Snyder around) that Cousins could have gotten (a fair shot) at the starting positon over RG when he replaced him. I realize that pre-season play alone is not going to get Cousins to be named the starter, but as you pointed out we aren't at practice. I'm going by some of the reports of those who were and remember Grudens coomments about winning games 13-10??

[DEHog]

...and it looks like Cousins never will get the chance here...

Rich Tandler ✔ @Rich_TandlerCSN
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“We’ll go into the season with Robert as the No. 1 guy”.—Gruden.
1:07 PM - 18 Feb 2015

[SkinsJock]

I was really hoping that we'd see both these guys trying to earn the starting job
I was a little disappointed when I heard that Cousins did not really want to stay here

If the reports are due to pressure from Snyder/Allen to keep Griffin + and see what we can get for Cousins - we're in a world of trouble

[markshark84]

Like I said, Kirk has been given the reigns twice now, and hasn't shown that he is ready to hold down the job. I understand that he hasn't been allowed to play through the adversity, but that's the way it is in the NFL. If he wants the starting job, he needs to perform with the limited opportunities he gets. No one is going to give you the starting QB job based on a few pre-season quarters, when you have an established starter on the roster.

I don't really consider Cousins to have been "given the reigns" in any respect. He has never been in the position where the coach said "this is your team". I agree with you that he has not been given the opportunity to play through things either. I actually think he has played fairly well given his situation and what the competition at the position did.

You mentioned Brady prior to this and here is a good comparison. Brady took over on 9/23/2001, Bledsoe was ready to start in week 11. Belicheck therefore had to make a decision at that time. Brady's averages over the 8 game period that kept him as the starter during that period were:
Comp: 19.25
Att: 29.75
%: 65%
TD TOTAL: 12
INT TOTAL: 7
Yards per game: 196

Cousins has also played 8 games where he played out the games. I didn't count benched games since that goes against the "reigns" point. His average numbers were:
Comp: 24
Att: 38.25
%: 63%
TD TOTAL: 16
INT TOTAL: 12
Yards per game: 310

If you compare those against his competition over that span, there isn't much of an argument.

That said, he does have an INT problem. But could that get better over time, I don't think we'll ever know. It's not like we have 37 games to make that determination like we did with RGIII.....

[Countertrey]

Jeeze! YOU MAKE YOUR OWN LUCK. Cousins was installed as starter with Bob's injury. Win games, and it becomes very difficult to return him to the bench. He did not. Rather, with game plans designed to take advantage of what should have been Cousins strengths, he threw a wealth of picks. That was on Cousins... no one else. He couldn't even fight off McCoy, for crying out loud. What was coach supposed to do??? Shoot for the season interception record?

[StorminMormon86]

Jeeze! YOU MAKE YOUR OWN LUCK. Cousins was installed as starter with Bob's injury. Win games, and it becomes very difficult to return him to the bench. He did not. Rather, with game plans designed to take advantage of what should have been Cousins strengths, he threw a wealth of picks. That was on Cousins... no one else. He couldn't even fight off McCoy, for crying out loud. What was coach supposed to do??? Shoot for the season interception record?

Cousins was not inserted into the starter's role with room for growing pains. It was to "win", which thanks to our defense a couple of games, didn't happen. He was given the job after Griffin's injury, not due to performance...which he would have won in the preseason if it was a true competition. He's never had the job where he knew he could suffer through the growing pains, it was always win or lose your job with Cousins. And it's not fair.

But since we're on the win games be the starter kick, why does Griffin automatically get the job? Because he has 4 more wins as a starter since 2012?

[tribeofjudah]

Trade? Not gonna happen

[Deadskins]

But since we're on the win games be the starter kick, why does Griffin automatically get the job? Because he has 4 more wins as a starter since 2012?

Not just 4 more, 4 Vs. 0. But no one said he automatically gets the job. What Gruden said was he ended the season as the starter, so that's the depth chart going into the new year. That doesn't mean Cousins can't play himself into the job, especially if Bob drops the ball.

[riggofan]

But since we're on the win games be the starter kick, why does Griffin automatically get the job? Because he has 4 more wins as a starter since 2012?

Not just 4 more, 4 Vs. 0. But no one said he automatically gets the job. What Gruden said was he ended the season as the starter, so that's the depth chart going into the new year. That doesn't mean Cousins can't play himself into the job, especially if Bob drops the ball.

Yeah I think that's a fair assessment of what Gruden said. Do you think its really possible though for Griffin to "drop the ball" though between now and week one? It just seems highly unlikely to me. I'm starting to prepare for another QB shuffle season...

[Deadskins]

He's never had the job where he knew he could suffer through the growing pains, it was always win or lose your job with Cousins. And it's not fair.

Please! "Bob has a dislocated ankle and is out for at least two months." Why would that be seen by Kirk as anything but "You're the man, go out there and play!" Are you saying he's looking over his shoulder at Colt, and thinking "I better not screw up or this guy is taking my job?" He threw a late pick and missed a wide open Garcon in the Smeagols game and kept his job. He threw 4 picks in 15 minutes Vs. the vaGiants, and kept his job. He played against the Seahawks and Cardinals, throwing costly picks at the end of the latter game, and still kept his job. He was finally pulled after throwing yet another pick against the Titans, and Gruden had finally seen enough. I don't know how you can keep insisting he didn't have a chance to work through his issues, or that he was treated unfairly. Give it a rest, already.

[Deadskins]

But since we're on the win games be the starter kick, why does Griffin automatically get the job? Because he has 4 more wins as a starter since 2012?

Not just 4 more, 4 Vs. 0. But no one said he automatically gets the job. What Gruden said was he ended the season as the starter, so that's the depth chart going into the new year. That doesn't mean Cousins can't play himself into the job, especially if Bob drops the ball.

Yeah I think that's a fair assessment of what Gruden said. Do you think its really possible though for Griffin to "drop the ball" though between now and week one? It just seems highly unlikely to me. I'm starting to prepare for another QB shuffle season...

Yes, I think it's possible, if Gruden doesn't see him putting in the work in the film room and applying those lessons to his play.

[riggofan]

Jeeze! YOU MAKE YOUR OWN LUCK. Cousins was installed as starter with Bob's injury. Win games, and it becomes very difficult to return him to the bench. He did not. Rather, with game plans designed to take advantage of what should have been Cousins strengths, he threw a wealth of picks.

Hah. This book on Cousins as the turnover machine is hard to argue against because of the numbers, but its also kind of exaggerated. Yeah he threw 9 picks last season. He played in six games and threw seven of those picks in two games. More specifically he threw 7 of those picks over like three really bad quarters against the Giants and Cardinals.

He didn't have any picks against the Jags or the Seahawks and threw one INT in games against the Eagles and Titans.

My take on Cousins is still that he could be a decent QB on a stronger team. Its a lot to ask any of those QBs to have won more games last year though. Whether they start him or not in 2015, I actually hope they keep him around while they're rebuilding.

[Countertrey]

Jeeze! YOU MAKE YOUR OWN LUCK. Cousins was installed as starter with Bob's injury. Win games, and it becomes very difficult to return him to the bench. He did not. Rather, with game plans designed to take advantage of what should have been Cousins strengths, he threw a wealth of picks. That was on Cousins... no one else. He couldn't even fight off McCoy, for crying out loud. What was coach supposed to do??? Shoot for the season interception record?

Cousins was not inserted into the starter's role with room for growing pains. It was to "win", which thanks to our defense a couple of games, didn't happen. He was given the job after Griffin's injury, not due to performance...which he would have won in the preseason if it was a true competition. He's never had the job where he knew he could suffer through the growing pains, it was always win or lose your job with Cousins. And it's not fair.

But since we're on the win games be the starter kick, why does Griffin automatically get the job? Because he has 4 more wins as a starter since 2012?

Someone is being deliberately obtuse... "It's not fair". I envision your tantrum. SO WHAT???? It's not fair... And it will NEVER be fair, I don't give a damn how you legislate it. GET OVER IT. Cousins option is perform or sit. It may not be fair... But so what??? Cousins had his opportunities last year. His job was to make the best of them. I don't care how you parse it, HE DID NOT DO THAT.

[Deadskins]

Someone is being deliberately obtuse... "It's not fair". I envision your tantrum. SO WHAT???? It's not fair... And it will NEVER be fair, I don't give a damn how you legislate it.

As my mother used to say, "Life's not fair!"

[DarthMonk]

Someone is being deliberately obtuse... "It's not fair". I envision your tantrum. SO WHAT???? It's not fair... And it will NEVER be fair, I don't give a damn how you legislate it.

As my mother used to say, "Life's not fair!"

IT'S NOT FAIR

[DEHog]

Like I said, Kirk has been given the reigns twice now, and hasn't shown that he is ready to hold down the job. I understand that he hasn't been allowed to play through the adversity, but that's the way it is in the NFL. If he wants the starting job, he needs to perform with the limited opportunities he gets. No one is going to give you the starting QB job based on a few pre-season quarters, when you have an established starter on the roster.

I don't really consider Cousins to have been "given the reigns" in any respect. He has never been in the position where the coach said "this is your team". I agree with you that he has not been given the opportunity to play through things either. I actually think he has played fairly well given his situation and what the competition at the position did.

You mentioned Brady prior to this and here is a good comparison. Brady took over on 9/23/2001, Bledsoe was ready to start in week 11. Belicheck therefore had to make a decision at that time. Brady's averages over the 8 game period that kept him as the starter during that period were:
Comp: 19.25
Att: 29.75
%: 65%
TD TOTAL: 12
INT TOTAL: 7
Yards per game: 196

Cousins has also played 8 games where he played out the games. I didn't count benched games since that goes against the "reigns" point. His average numbers were:
Comp: 24
Att: 38.25
%: 63%
TD TOTAL: 16
INT TOTAL: 12
Yards per game: 310

If you compare those against his competition over that span, there isn't much of an argument.

That said, he does have an INT problem. But could that get better over time, I don't think we'll ever know. It's not like we have 37 games to make that determination like we did with RGIII.....

Thanks for posting this; it’s a very interesting parallel. On the surface I would think that most people (myself included) would say it was an easy decision for Belichick to keep playing Brady because he played so well in the absence of Bledsoe. Both RG and Bledsoe were hurt in the second game of the season RG was cleared to play week 9, Bledsoe week 10. Brady’s stats while good weren’t great and he was 5-3 during that stretch. So Belichick had to make that decision based on those numbers…we all know how that turned out. There’s been a lot of disagreement about Cousins being given the reigns, allow to work through the INT’s etc… The argument is if Cousin had played well he would be the starter, I don’t think it’s that easy, in fact I don’t think Cousins keeps the job if he went 5-3 does anyone else?? The other argument is because of what we gave up for RG and him being a first round pick vs. Cousins a fourth round. Well Bledsoe was a number 1 pick who had just signed a 10 year deal in NE vs. Brady a second year 6th round pick, so that was a pretty ballsy decision. Do you really think Gruden would tell RG and Snyder that he was going to stay with Cousins if he went 5-3?? My arguments is that Cousins would have to be almost perfect before they would turns the keys to car over to him…no way a first year coach is going to make that decision.

[Deadskins]

Like I said, Kirk has been given the reigns twice now, and hasn't shown that he is ready to hold down the job. I understand that he hasn't been allowed to play through the adversity, but that's the way it is in the NFL. If he wants the starting job, he needs to perform with the limited opportunities he gets. No one is going to give you the starting QB job based on a few pre-season quarters, when you have an established starter on the roster.

I don't really consider Cousins to have been "given the reigns" in any respect. He has never been in the position where the coach said "this is your team". I agree with you that he has not been given the opportunity to play through things either. I actually think he has played fairly well given his situation and what the competition at the position did.

You mentioned Brady prior to this and here is a good comparison. Brady took over on 9/23/2001, Bledsoe was ready to start in week 11. Belicheck therefore had to make a decision at that time. Brady's averages over the 8 game period that kept him as the starter during that period were:
Comp: 19.25
Att: 29.75
%: 65%
TD TOTAL: 12
INT TOTAL: 7
Yards per game: 196

Cousins has also played 8 games where he played out the games. I didn't count benched games since that goes against the "reigns" point. His average numbers were:
Comp: 24
Att: 38.25
%: 63%
TD TOTAL: 16
INT TOTAL: 12
Yards per game: 310

If you compare those against his competition over that span, there isn't much of an argument.

That said, he does have an INT problem. But could that get better over time, I don't think we'll ever know. It's not like we have 37 games to make that determination like we did with RGIII.....

Thanks for posting this; it’s a very interesting parallel. On the surface I would think that most people (myself included) would say it was an easy decision for Belichick to keep playing Brady because he played so well in the absence of Bledsoe. Both RG and Bledsoe were hurt in the second game of the season RG was cleared to play week 9, Bledsoe week 10. Brady’s stats while good weren’t great and he was 5-3 during that stretch. So Belichick had to make that decision based on those numbers…we all know how that turned out. There’s been a lot of disagreement about Cousins being given the reigns, allow to work through the INT’s etc… The argument is if Cousin had played well he would be the starter, I don’t think it’s that easy, in fact I don’t think Cousins keeps the job if he went 5-3 does anyone else?? The other argument is because of what we gave up for RG and him being a first round pick vs. Cousins a fourth round. Well Bledsoe was a number 1 pick who had just signed a 10 year deal in NE vs. Brady a second year 6th round pick, so that was a pretty ballsy decision. Do you really think Gruden would tell RG and Snyder that he was going to stay with Cousins if he went 5-3?? My arguments is that Cousins would have to be almost perfect before they would turns the keys to car over to him…no way a first year coach is going to make that decision.

That's all well and good, but Griffin didn't get the job back from Cousins. He got the job back from McCoy. Had Brady been benched for whoever was the #3 guy at the time, I doubt Belichick doesn't give the job back to Bledsoe.

[DEHog]

^^ If you read the post...I'm not arguing that point. My question is would Gruden had stayed with Cousins at 5-3?? Bottom line the job was not Cousins to lose!!

[SkinsJock]

OK - this is really simple guys - try looking ahead and try thinking about things as they pertain to this franchise

The Brady/Bledsoe BS is not at all relevant - get away from that

IF this franchise is now under the 'control' of Scot and Jay with a little help from the FO and other staff members, the QB here is going to be the QB that these guys think can best help the franchise going forward - it's also not really critical right now as we try and get the other parts of the franchise headed in the right direction - if that is not the case and Dan/Bruce are any part of the decision making, then it doesn't matter who plays QB

geez, this is unbelievable - it does not matter who is the QB, the only thing that matters is who makes the decisions

and one other thing - try looking at the positives - all this stuff about RG3 not ever being able to play QB and Cousins throwing nothing but interceptions is just so negative ... how is that helpful to this franchise going forward?

we maybe should consider trading Griffin or Cousins but at this time I don't think that is best for this franchise

Scot & Jay have a chance at putting this franchise on the right track to a better product on the field ... there's not a chance in the world of that happening if they are not in control of things here - ZERO