Redskins vs. Seahawks Game Day Thread

[markshark84]

More importantly I've never seen any evidence he can mentally process at NFL speed, a prerequisite for real success at QB.

I have noticed this too, but was always curious whether it was the fact he hasn't been able to process the play quickly or, givnig him the benefit of the doubt due to his clear intelligence, instead identified better options using his feet. After the HOU game, I tend to believe the former, but am not 100%. That is why I would love to see him playing 6 or so games this year in order to firm this up.

[emoses14]

More importantly I've never seen any evidence he can mentally process at NFL speed, a prerequisite for real success at QB.

I have noticed this too, but was always curious whether it was the fact he hasn't been able to process the play quickly or, givnig him the benefit of the doubt due to his clear intelligence, instead identified better options using his feet. After the HOU game, I tend to believe the former, but am not 100%. That is why I would love to see him playing 6 or so games this year in order to firm this up.

Quick question, is it not true that the ability to process what a defense is giving you, reacting to what they're doing and processing, then calling, the correct play out of the read option requires processing an NFL defense to the same extent as what Oldschool claims Griffin can not do? Further, doesn't running play action out of a normal drop back, the read option and pistol formation require different timing with regard to what you can see the defense doing as you turn back to the play from the fake, again necessitating breakdown of the defense in a smaller window? Lastly, I agree with the point your second clause, first sentence is making. When there is only a limited number of options (i.e. throw to pre-set 1st, 2nd or 3rd option) you are a limited QB if your 4th choice is panic. This is what we saw against NY from Kirk. When he had to create a play, he was left flailing. that's not a knock on Kirk, that's pointing out why Griffin will be playing in those last 6 games (or whatever he can once healthy). Cousins is better than solid, but less than spectacular. I'm sorry, but I need a lot more than the Houston game to pronounce the clearly intelligent Griffin all of a sudden a dunce.

[cowboykillerzRGiii]

Emosses that is is spot on!

Further to your point, how was Griffins success in 2012 only attributed to his legs? I mean he wasn't very mobile vs dullass in the season closer but did a great job.

Fact is for both these qbs the line doesn't hold long enough for progressions to be made- they are all still covered. Robert can improve on throwing a receiver open imo, but he makes progressions that some like to suggest he doesnt. What we are also seeing is that HOU was probably underrated by the skins on D- I know Clowney left early but Rg3 is the only qb who faced that D at its best. The team 0 failed w fumbles, the coach failed with out opening up the downfield passing and abandoning the run, and special teams is what cost us.

[cowboykillerzRGiii]

I also think the biggest deal with RG3 isn't his legs, or his release, or whatever. It's actually his confidence. In 2012 it looked like he was confident, having fun. 2013 looked miserable. This year...well...who knows it didn't last long enough.

[Sorry for the delay- I wanted to be reply appropriately and couldn't do so from my cell...

Straight from work release?

I agree with your post 100%.. he is improving on his mechanics, but he and Cousins BOTH are suffering from baby ShEli syndrome.. that pouty face down on yourself feeling after a bad throw , bad game. Need to be a lot more confident and sure of your self in this league. With our current Oline its not easy, and I don't envy them.. but you gotta have a short term memory so the next play isn't effected by the last.

hopefully our play vs Az doesn't get me thrown in the hole- or on lock down!

[markshark84]

More importantly I've never seen any evidence he can mentally process at NFL speed, a prerequisite for real success at QB.

I have noticed this too, but was always curious whether it was the fact he hasn't been able to process the play quickly or, givnig him the benefit of the doubt due to his clear intelligence, instead identified better options using his feet. After the HOU game, I tend to believe the former, but am not 100%. That is why I would love to see him playing 6 or so games this year in order to firm this up.

1. Quick question, is it not true that the ability to process what a defense is giving you, reacting to what they're doing and processing, then calling, the correct play out of the read option requires processing an NFL defense to the same extent as what Oldschool claims Griffin can not do?

2. Further, doesn't running play action out of a normal drop back, the read option and pistol formation require different timing with regard to what you can see the defense doing as you turn back to the play from the fake, again necessitating breakdown of the defense in a smaller window?

3. Lastly, I agree with the point your second clause, first sentence is making. When there is only a limited number of options (i.e. throw to pre-set 1st, 2nd or 3rd option) you are a limited QB if your 4th choice is panic. This is what we saw against NY from Kirk. When he had to create a play, he was left flailing. that's not a knock on Kirk, that's pointing out why Griffin will be playing in those last 6 games (or whatever he can once healthy). Cousins is better than solid, but less than spectacular. I'm sorry, but I need a lot more than the Houston game to pronounce the clearly intelligent Griffin all of a sudden a dunce.

1. Well, I'm not sure exactly what OldSchool is saying, but the analysis and/or "processing" done by a QB is different between the read option and taking a 3 step drop and firing a pass within 3 seconds. When a QB is determining whether to keep the ball in the read option, they are really only spying the DE/OLBs on the ends in the direction they intend to run (which 99% of the time is to the right side). The pure "analysis" or reading the entire defense, scheme, etc. isn't there. The "analysis/processing" in the read option is far more instinctual. That being said, the decision must be made in a second vs. a 3 second drop back. When a QB has to drop back, cycle thru options, identifying the open receiver, determine the location to through the ball to, and fire it to your receiver --- there are many more determinables necessary to come to make a conclusion within 3 seconds.

2. I agree. Pistol is the easiest formation for a QB to read defenses by far. You see the field much better and one of the reasons the shotgun/pistol formation has become so popular in the NFL. It gives the QB more time to make a decision. The play action is the most difficult -- unless you don't commit to the fake. It is my belief that one of the reasons most play action plays only have 2 options and a check down receiver is because the QB doesn't have as much time to cycle thru their options. The read option, as I said, is just really a different form of analysis since it is a run play essentially.

3. Agree. Cousins clearly panics, IMHO. He also gets down on himself when he makes mistakes. One of the things he needs to work on is composure. And while I can't speak for OldSchool, I don't think RGIII is in the least bit a dunce. I actually think he is one of the more intelligent players in the NFL. But, being intelligent doesn't mean you process quickly. I also think that having the option to run (even when it isn't technically an "option") actually slows down the QB's thought process.

This all being said, RGIII has a slow release. Why is the big question, because he is clearly smart and decisive. But no matter how you look at it, it is something he needs to work on.

[cowboykillerzRGiii]

..

3. See no, I don't believe that if RGIII had been in the game anyone on the planet would say that was "garbage time". And I don't think anyone on the planet thinks Kirk is close to being a "comeback king". And players aren't consistent througout the game. There are ebbs and flows. Playcalling has a ton to do with this. And our D CAN SHOULDER a GOOD DEAL of the loss HOWEVER our OFF is EQUALLY at fault. It is my general belief that a DEF does it's job if it holds an opposing OFF to <=23 and it is the job of the OFF to score >=23 points. Neither one did that. One quarter means next to nothing. What about the other 3... Again, YOU CAN'T PICK AND CHOOSE!!!!!!!

I also wasn't aware the "garbage time" was a question. I have come to believe that everything posted on this site is a statement. That being said, I don't (and I think 99.999% of the universe) would think the 4th Q wasn't garbage time. I also believe that 99.999% of the universe would think the entire 4Q of the PHI game last year was. The last TD game with 1 min left in the game. So to answer your question, no I don't think anyone could consider the 4Q of the SEA as "garbage time". Not even close. I am being 100% objective here.

4. I just find it hard to hear that you support them both --- followed by a completely 1 sided and bias analysis. But the fact you understand you are biased towards RGIII helps. Now if you truly supported both players, would you be happy if Kirk played above average (sort of a combination of the SEA game and PHI game) the rest of his time prior to RGIII's return (at least his play was superior to RGIII's in 2013) and Gruden decided benched RGIII? This is a serious question. I don't think you would, but I am asking and don't want to assume.

As far as the RGIII game, I didn't "dog" RGIII. I am just not bias nor do I have a completely jaded perception of RGIII. We scored 6 FREAKING POINTS!!!! That is WELL below the 23 point threshold. RGIII's QBR was 29.7 -- 4th worst in the league that week!!! And your incorrect opinion that RGIII did enough to win in HOU shows complete bias towards RGIII. RGIII did NOT do enough to win in HOU. That literally couldn't have been more clear. His 29.7 QBR --- a stat driven by a QB's ability to ADD VALUE offensively -- proves this. RGIII was NOT efficient at moving the ball!!!! We amassed 125 yards on 7 drives in the first half!!! That is horrible. It's like an average drive of 15 yards. The second half was better, but still in totality not "efficient" in any sense of the word. Cousins' game against SEA was CLEARLY better than RGIII's against HOU. This is not even debatable. Cousins had more yards, 2 more TDs, more points, a higher QBR, a higher yards per pass, less sacks, a higher QB rating... he was literally better in every facet of the position (outside of meaningless completion %). He also did this with 0 run support. We had 131 rushing yards against HOU compared to 32 against SEA.

And being objective means taking the data at hand. You can't CREATE stats. If the DEF dropped an INT, it is NOT an INT --- just like a dropped pass isn't a completion. That is playing the "what if" game. Objectivity is taking FACTS. Saying a dropped INT is equivalent to an actual INT is not accurate nor is it objective. CREATING stats isn't reading between the lines. Taking factual, secondary source data that had even a marginal impact on performance is. The fumble from Paul -- yes that affected RGIII's offensive points scored. I agree that was a factor. But things like a dropped pass or "shoulda" "coulda" is not objective AT ALL. In fact, it literally couldn't be more subjective......

5. Incorrect. Davis (the STL QB) ran for -1 yard against DAL. As far as NO, the "run game" is VASTLY different than QB scrambles.

I agree that there is no need to rush RGIII back, but I hope he is back by AT LEAST the Tampa Bay game.

7. Well, I want the 2012 RGIII back!!! In 2012 he was a leader, confident, more accurate, and a playmaker. All I want him to do is put on weight (like 25 pounds -- I can be 50-50 fat to muscle; I don't care -- he needs to stop eating subway and start eating pappa johns...) and learn to scramble (and slide) like Wilson. Steve Young is a great comparison. RGIII MUST MUST MUST improve on quickening his release. For example, after RGIII takes his drop back (whether 3 or 5 step), he sets his shoulders. That takes time and is something he should be doing AS he drops back. He also needs to cycle thru at least is first 2 options before a 5 step drop and at least his first before he completes his 3 step drop. A QB read cycle/decision should be completed in 3 seconds. He does need better protection, but his is partially at fault. He needs to learn to move WITHIN the pocket as well as trust his receivers.

8. I agree that, like you, people have bias. I personally don't. I was in awe of RGIII in 2012. But I agree that if RGIII had had the game Cousins did against NYG, people would want him benched -- you don't need to prove that. I do, however, think the fans expect more because of what I said in my prior post. The expectations are (and should be) higher for RGIII. We gave up 3 #1s and a #2 for him. He has a $21 million contract. They should NOT be held to the same standards as far as expectations.

9. Again, SEA was a game we were in a position to win. We were clear the inferior team, but in the position nonetheless. We were never in that position against PHI. SEA never played prevent D. The only time was on the last play of the game.

I agree that bashing RGIII is not the route to go, but we can't pretend he is something he isn't. And I think you are being a little overprotective of RGIII. No one was bashing him after the SEA game. No one. But the fact is, right now, Cousins is playing better (collectively) than RGIII did in 2013 and the beginning of 2014. People recognize that and are frustrated --- especially after seeing the 2012 RGIII.

And I agree in that moral victories are worthless and for losers. You either win or lose. That is the game.

Also agree that we aren't going to the playoffs no matter who QBs. The reality is more likely we are looking straight into somewhere between 3 and 6 Ws this year....

3. I actually don't believe in "garbage time" personally. Maybe some coaches feel differently, but I see no point in squandering a lead, EVER.
Youre kind of proving my point tho.. in a game that we were getting owned by SEA we made it a ball game- likewise vs philly last year. You yourself call rg3s numbers garbage time attributed to a prevent D- but we actually lost that game by LESS then we lost to Seattle. unbiased right?

4. I support EVERY qb who is back there- becksy to Mcnugget back to Ferrot. I see a bright future with a healthy Rg and I see Grossman in Cousins. I do give credit where its do and maybe I defend Griff a little much on here.. but sometimes the hate runs so deep I have to-

Only knock on cousins is his deep ball accuracy.

Ill take the trade off for his pocket presence tho

Ill go on record and say I will be PUMPED if Kirk is playing lights out and allows Griff to recover the rest of the season. When he is healthy id like to see him get reps in practice but if coach feels Kirk is the answer then so be it. Ive already posted numerous times im all for open comp at qb- and then NYG happened!
To me being objective is exactly what I did.. not knock Robert for others mistakes and look solely at him. we can agree to disagree but to me an honest look is what I was doing.. not discrediting him for the te failing to hold onto the ball costing us a likely TD. Ive also said he shares blame for the other fumble not entirely tho- and NFL.com agreed attributing the fumble to morris. Its whatever- I give him credit for getting the team into 2 scoring positions and not getting the points isn't all on him. we can disagree I don't see either of us changing our mind.

5. Sorry I wasn't looking at stats just basing it off what I have seen thus far.. both of Kaps Tds were on bootlegs- which Kirk can do. They have been weak vs the run and to me a mobile qb should in theory fair well with a good running game, play action, bootlegs etc.

7. I agree. thicker = more durable. He hit the weights hard after his knee but his legs still look small. A better line would make him shine IMO, but that goes for Kirk too. The sample size this year is so small its extremely hard to gauge where Robert is with his new pocket play.

8. To me, it doesn't matter what we gave up for a guy.. it wasn't his fault. Both are qbs, and both should have the same standard in that regard. As a fan base we hold it against Rg3 what we gave up for him- I just find that unfair, and definite bias to not hold Kirk to that same standards. again- my only my opinion.

9. Philly was one example.. losing by six tells me that we WERE in a position to win... and that's that.
5.

[cowboykillerzRGiii]

Robert is being taught to hold the ball higher- and IMO his "release" is just fine.. you, me, oldschool, and everyone else can agree that he needs to get rid of the ball faster- in part due to the lack of time he has behind this Oline.