Pastor Turned Atheist

[Deadskins]

Do you believe without being "saved" that you are going to go to hell?.

I'm not sure what you mean by being "saved," but if you're asking, "Do you believe in hell?" Yes, I do. If you're asking, "Do you necessarily have to accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior to avoid going to hell?" No, I don't.

Jesus did say the only way to get to Yahweh is through him.

No, I don't believe he did. He did say that if you believe in him (and this should be read as believing requires more than just acknowledging his existence), that you will go to heaven when you die.

That is, of course, if you choose to believe that part of the bible as the bible itself is basically only used as a supplement to believing. I guess its a take it and you will be fine or a leave it you will be fine kind of thing.

This is where you always try to put words in my mouth. We've been over this a dozen times in this and other threads. I'm not saying you should pick and choose parts of the Bible to believe or disbelieve. I'm saying the entire thing is the work of many different, human authors, from vastly different eras of history, often only first written down hundreds, or even thousands, of years later, and should be read with that in mind.

And in some instances it seems like you don't need Jesus at all, but have a relationship with "I am" which seems to be more of a relationship with ones self than anything.

Which instances are these? Jesus showed us how to live according to God's commandments. I consider him fundametal to developing my relationship with God.

[Cappster]

I think this makes it pretty clear that Jesus is the only way to heaven and if you don't believe it then you aren't really Christian:

John 14:6

English Standard Version (ESV)

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."


You can make it easier on yourself and just use the golden rule if you want to strive to be a decent person. It seems as though you are trying too hard to rationalize everything together with the bible, Jesus, and Yahweh. I don't know what else to say as it seems like you are all over the map trying to fit square pegs into round holes with trying to make your faith make sense. Your faith probably does make sense to you, but as I do my best to try and understand your logic, it really doesn't make much sense to me.

[Deadskins]

I think this makes it pretty clear that Jesus is the only way to heaven and if you don't believe it then you aren't really Christian:

John 14:6

English Standard Version (ESV)

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."


You can make it easier on yourself and just use the golden rule if you want to strive to be a decent person. It seems as though you are trying too hard to rationalize everything together with the bible, Jesus, and Yahweh. I don't know what else to say as it seems like you are all over the map trying to fit square pegs into round holes with trying to make your faith make sense. Your faith probably does make sense to you, but as I do my best to try and understand your logic, it really doesn't make much sense to me.

I'm sure it doesn't, but just because you don't don't understand it, doesn't make it unsound. I suppose that if you are looking at that statement literally, then I can see where you are coming from. As I said, Jesus showed us how to live by God's commandments. ( “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.") I would argue, that he's not saying you literally have to go through him to get to God, but rather live by his example.

[Deadskins]

The full Chapter:

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

[Cappster]

So, by your reasoning, a person doesn't ave to believe in Jesus at all as long as their works here on Earth are filled with love, compassion, and empathy? In other words, mimicking what Jesus allegedly did without all of the walking on water stuff. If that is the case, many Christians who believe in said deity, will still go to hell, because their actions aren't up to snuff with what Jesus is about?

[Deadskins]

So, by your reasoning, a person doesn't ave to believe in Jesus at all as long as their works here on Earth are filled with love, compassion, and empathy? In other words, mimicking what Jesus allegedly did without all of the walking on water stuff. If that is the case, many Christians who believe in said deity, will still go to hell, because their actions aren't up to snuff with what Jesus is about?

That's about the whole of it. Though, I don't think you have to be up to the Jesus standard to pass muster. And, if they qualify for hell, then they were Christians in name only.

[Cappster]

Interesting. In that case, there will probably be just as many, if not more, atheists in heaven (if such a place exists) than those who claim to be believers. I have some friends who believe that everyone will be saved no matter what. Even my own girlfriend, who claims to be catholic, says she will save me from hell (LOL). Then you have those who say "believe in Christ or burn forever you little heathen!" If I were a god, I would personally see to it that all of my people were on the same page when it came to their theology. That and I would cure world hunger, 86 sex trafficking/rape, abolish war, etc...

[DarthMonk]

quoth the Deadman:

What amazing ability and power I have. If I say the word "God," he pops into existence. Now I'll create a unicorn--I don't know diddly about unicorns.

Nope.

Your invoking God doesn't make Him exist, but it does contradict your supposed non-belief in Him. So I mis-spoke. I should have said your statement requires the belief in the existence of God.

Mis-spoke again. Saying don't know diddly about unicorns does not contradict a non-belief in them. I'm liking some of your other posts here, though. Active thread lately.

Thats what I said. If he had said the Unicorn, then he would have been giving a proper analog to his original statement. Note the colored letters in his quote.

/quoth the Deadman

Please. Now we can mince God and the God. Not buying this little argument against ch1. I don't believe in an undetectable dragon and I don't know diddly about the undetectable dragon and what I just wrote doesn't contradict my supposed non-belief in the an/the undetectable dragon.

Now if what you're talking about is the level of perfection (or lack thereof) of his analogy, I get it. He went from God to unicorns and he seemed to be missing your point - the one I disagree with

I better quit this crap.. I have sh!t I need to get done.

[crazyhorse1]

Just wondering: Why all this salvation stuff didn't make it into the Old Testament, nor did heaven as a place to go when you die, especially if the Bible is all knowing and infallible, like the Pope. The Hebrews believed in Sheol, the place of the dead, where everyone loses all identity and knows nothing, evermore. I also wonder why Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John contradict each other so much in the infallible book and Jesus supported slavery, as well as tell his disciples that saved people will be known to speak in tongues, take poison without dying, and "take up serpents." Did I mention genocide committed by the Hebrews at the word of God, Lot offering to let his daughters be raped, the differing versions of creation in Genesis I and II regarding who and what was created first, second, third, etc. Then, again, maybe the nonsense of Noah and such is better left untouched. Only a fool would trip up on what is behind him.

[Deadskins]

especially if the Bible is all knowing and infallible, like the Pope.

Maybe because they're not. How could an inanimate object like a book be "all knowing," anyway?

[crazyhorse1]

Are you suggesting that the Bible is not the "living" word of God? Oh, my. Maybe it's just a collection of old fantasies, myths, poems, delusions, cruel stupidities, half-assed histories, etc. thrown together uncritically by bronze age Jerry Falwells.

[SkinsJock]

Are you suggesting that the Bible is not the "living" word of God? Oh, my. Maybe it's just a collection of old fantasies, myths, poems, delusions, cruel stupidities, half-assed histories, etc. thrown together uncritically by bronze age Jerry Falwells.

sorry old man - you obviously don't know much about the Bible at all

[crazyhorse1]

Easy words to utter, especially if you plan to include no evidence or content. Precisely what about the Bible do you think I am in ignorance of? I first started studying it in 1951 and have won major literary awards as a "Christian" author, in spite of my skepticism, picked up long before I attended a Baptist college. No one of unhindered intelligence can closely read the Bible without having his faith shaken. Not only is it preposterous and self contradictory, it is relentlessly immoral.

[SkinsJock]

I offer you this -

… Maybe it's just a collection of old fantasies, myths, poems, delusions, cruel stupidities, half-assed histories, etc. thrown together uncritically by bronze age Jerry Falwells.

are you for real?

[crazyhorse1]

Check into Wikipedia for info on the god Mithra. Note the obvious, also the need for Augustine to create the dogma that Satan invented Mithra (the early model for Christ) to confuse Christians in a time to come. One of the most desperate and pathetic bits of theology ever to attend a faith.

[Cappster]

Are you suggesting that the Bible is not the "living" word of God? Oh, my. Maybe it's just a collection of old fantasies, myths, poems, delusions, cruel stupidities, half-assed histories, etc. thrown together uncritically by bronze age Jerry Falwells.

Yes, that is exactly what the buy-bull is all about. Unfortunately, the ones drunk on Yeshua juice will refuse to claim that the buy-bull is the word of god or mans word guided by god. How do thy know Jesus without having some knowledge of the buy-bull? The Holy Spirit! Bahahaha

[Redskin in Canada]

I do not understand this infatuation about arguments about any proof on the existence of God.

To me, gentlemen, it is quite simple:

I have seen EVIL. I have seen some of the worst forms of EVIL. There is a lot of bad work done by the BEAST around the World.

Once you witness EVIL beyond your worst nightmares, you know there is a God to win the battle on your side.

I do not expect everybody or most to understand me. But if you do, it is enough for me.

[Kilmer72]

Tried to edit myself my bad

[crazyhorse1]

I do not understand this infatuation about arguments about any proof on the existence of God.

To me, gentlemen, it is quite simple:

I have seen EVIL. I have seen some of the worst forms of EVIL. There is a lot of bad work done by the BEAST around the World.

Once you witness EVIL beyond your worst nightmares, you know there is a God to win the battle on your side.

I do not expect everybody or most to understand me. But if you do, it is enough for me.

Good stuff RIC but unfortunately the proof will not be seen unless there is a belief.

I know how it works for me, but it is different for everyone.

I could give examples for me but that wont help anyone else, nor do I think I should.

I understand and respect your emotional response to evil, but a logical response to evil beyond worse nightmares would be to doubt the existence of God, who should be able and willing to keep evil in check. After Auschwitz, there can be no such God.

[Kilmer72]

To me RIC's post was about yin and yang. Evil vs good. If one exists then the other should my

[Cappster]

I do not understand this infatuation about arguments about any proof on the existence of God.

To me, gentlemen, it is quite simple:

I have seen EVIL. I have seen some of the worst forms of EVIL. There is a lot of bad work done by the BEAST around the World.

Once you witness EVIL beyond your worst nightmares, you know there is a God to win the battle on your side.

I do not expect everybody or most to understand me. But if you do, it is enough for me.

Good stuff RIC but unfortunately the proof will not be seen unless there is a belief.

I know how it works for me, but it is different for everyone.

I could give examples for me but that wont help anyone else, nor do I think I should.

I understand and respect your emotional response to evil, but a logical response to evil beyond worse nightmares would be to doubt the existence of God, who should be able and willing to keep evil in check. After Auschwitz, there can be no such God.

If an all powerful god sits by and watches unimaginable evil take place, then what makes him god? Isn't such a being supposed to be all loving? How can an all powerful, all knowing, and omnipresent god sit on the sideline while such atrocities take place? The answer: It most likely doesn't exist.

[Deadskins]

How can an all powerful, all knowing, and omnipresent god sit on the sideline while such atrocities take place? The answer: It most likely doesn't exist.

I think your question provides just the opposite answer. Because God is all powerful, all knowing, and omnipresent, you can't question why He does what He does because you have no perspective on the big picture like He does.

On a related, but different subject: Do you believe that a man named Jesus lived 2000 years ago and was crucified? Not asking if you believe he was God, the son of God, a prophet, performed miracles, or anything else. Did the man exist, or is he a work of fiction?

[Redskin in Canada]

I understand and respect your emotional response to evil, but a logical response to evil beyond worse nightmares would be to doubt the existence of God, who should be able and willing to keep evil in check. After Auschwitz, there can be no such God.

There is no attempt to inspire an "emotional" response to evil. But if evil in all of its forms does not prove the struggle between good and evil within each person's heart and mind, nothing will.

The fact that we can say freely now that there was an Auschwitz then is proof of one victory of good versus evil and God versus the Beast. I have not visited Auschwitz. But I had an opportunity to review the evidence put forward against some members of the Kmher Rouge in the Cambodia Tribunal. That evidence suffices to me.

[Cappster]

How can an all powerful, all knowing, and omnipresent god sit on the sideline while such atrocities take place? The answer: It most likely doesn't exist.

I think your question provides just the opposite answer. Because God is all powerful, all knowing, and omnipresent, you can't question why He does what He does because you have no perspective on the big picture like He does.

On a related, but different subject: Do you believe that a man named Jesus lived 2000 years ago and was crucified? Not asking if you believe he was God, the son of God, a prophet, performed miracles, or anything else. Did the man exist, or is he a work of fiction?

If we were to judge morality by the notion of whatever god commands being good then there is no such thing as morality, because the almighty can change the rules as it sees fit. An all powerful, all knowing, and omnipresent god watching while an eight year old gets brutally raped and murdered is not someone I would worship nor consider to be an all loving god.

I don't know if Jesus ever existed. It is possible that some guy named Jesus/Joshua/Yeshuah was sacrificed on a cross as it was quite common for the Romans to perform crucifictions. The story of Jesus does sound a lot like that of other mythical gods/saviors that existed before his story was presented to the world. If it weren't for the Roman Emperor Constantine, the story of Jesus could have been just another fable placed on the bookshelves of all other mythological beings.

[Deadskins]

If it weren't for the Roman Emperor Constantine, the story of Jesus could have been just another fable placed on the bookshelves of all other mythological beings.

Yes, but doesn't Constantine's proximity to Jesus, in history, just lend creedence to his existence, not to mention all the ancient documents about him?