What Happened???

[skinsfan#33]

I'm hoping that Mike comes back for another season but more because of what he and Bruce have done and will continue to do if he's given another year ..

I'm not sure that all the issues on defense are due to Haslett but he may be gone anyway … same for Burns … Kyle is most likely here because he's the HC's son, NOT because he's a really good OC - he's just a good OC … again, the offense might be better with better guys up front

unless things go really badly here … Mike will get another year

we have our franchise QB and a really good RB … PLUS a lot of good young players to build around

I 100% agree that all of the problems on D belong at the feet of Haslett. He certainly could bennefit with better safety play and players that don't miss as many tackles. Don't get me wrong, when I say that he needs to be gone I'm not blaming all of the problems on D on him, but I'm 100% certain (well 99.995%) that Wade Phillips would do a better job with the same tallent. I don't want Jimmy H gone if there isn't a clearly better DC out there, but I would think they should be able to improve in that area.

Now for Burns... people will say leting Danny Smaith go was a mistake; I don't. Hiring Burns to replace him was a mistake! ST coaches and DC can impact their units way more than an OC.

Speaking of OC, Kyle doesn't need to go anywhere. What he has gotten out of the tallent he has to work with on offense is just amazing. We have an OL that only one got would start on most of the other NFL teams. The rest of our guys would be lucky to be backups on other teams. We simple don't have a #2 WR and our #1, while very good, is not great (not a top 5 WR maybe not even a top 10 WR). We have a stud at RB and he would start for at least 28 other NFL teams and a TE that looks like he could be special, but also looks like he will be injury prone. Our franchise QB is returning from his second major knee jury and hasn't been accurate all year, has not progressed (even regressed) at reading defenses and still hasn't figured out how to throw a ball away w/o getting an intentional grounding penalty.

With all of that said, I think it would be a mistake not to bring Shanny back for another season.

[riggofan]

I 100% agree that all of the problems on D belong at the feet of Haslett. He certainly could bennefit with better safety play and players that don't miss as many tackles. Don't get me wrong, when I say that he needs to be gone I'm not blaming all of the problems on D on him

hah. Which is it? You just said that all of our D problems belong at the feet of Haslett, but you're not blaming all of the problems on D on him! Seriously though, I get your point.

I'm 100% certain (well 99.995%) that Wade Phillips would do a better job with the same tallent. I don't want Jimmy H gone if there isn't a clearly better DC out there, but I would think they should be able to improve in that area.

I wouldn't say that I'm 100% certain, but I think you're probably right. Wade Phillips is one of those guys who always seems to have a solid defense no matter where he goes. If we have a chance to upgrade the defensive coordinator, then I'm all for it.

Btw I'm not advocating a change at OC, but given the way thing have gone for the Texans this year, I wonder if Kubiak might end up joining the Shannys here in Washington next year in some capacity?

[SkinsJock]

I'm not advocating change next season for any of the staff at this time ….. that could change

I'd like to see better guys at those positions but I hope that we can have better players for whomever is coaching them - Kyle is a good OC and the offense will be a lot better with a better O line - Jim is a good DC but it might be time for a change; again, NO MATTER who is running the defense, it will be much better when the areas of concern are addressed - Ken Burns has not shown much at all

[Deadskins]

Ken Burns has not shown much at all

I thought his documentaries on the Civil War and Baseball were quite good.

[skinsfan#33]

Jim is a good DC but it might be time for a change; again, NO MATTER who is running the defense, it will be much better when the areas of concern are addressed

What make you think Haslett is a good DC? The last time he had a good D it was in Pittsburge (last venture) his three years as the DC in Pburge were the "worst three years" in Bill Cowher's first ten seasons.

There is a reason he was no longer in the NFL.

I don't want to waste any more time on Haslett unless there is clearly no one that would be an upgrade. I say the D will change much more with a change at DC (if the right guy is selected) than it would by adding a few very good players at areas of need!
Hopefully they do both. Improve both the players and the coach, but the biggest change will come at DC.

[Kilmer72]

I seem to agree with a bunch of this. http://riggosrag.com/2013/11/09/five-th ... s-defense/

1. Jim Haslett is behind the times - Redskins defensive coordinator Jim Haslett’s defenses have never been very good in Washington, but for some reason head coach Mike Shanahan sticks with him. But no matter what, it seems the Redskins are always behind the curve ball to the offense.

Even the mediocre Minnesota Vikings looked like a great offensive team against them putting up 34 points. if the Redskins fail to make the playoffs, then Mike Shanahan may have to sacrifice Haslett in order to save himself.

3. Lack of a space eating nose tackle - Barry Cofield has played well at times at the nose, but he’s better suited to be a defensive end. The Redskins need a bigger space eating nose tackle that can attract double teams and clog up running lanes. This would take the pressure off the ILB’s and also help the defense defend the run better.

4. Lack of Play makers on the Defensive Line - Steven Bowen is a solid defensive end, but the Redskins need a play maker at that position. Jarvis Jenkins is also solid, but he hasn’t lived up to the billing of a second round pick. The Redskins outside linebackers Brian Orakpo and Ryan Kerrigan would be better served if someone on the D-line could help take the pressure of them, and command double teams.

2. London Fletcher is getting old - London Fletcher has been a great player in the NFL for many years, but it seems he may be coming to the end of his run. Never before has Fletcher looked so old as he does now. And it’s not really a criticism of Fletcher because he’s been good much longer than most players are even in the league.

However, it’s time for an upgrade at ILB. As Fletcher can no longer cover ground like he used to, and he is constantly over matched by tight ends. He has also become a liability against the run, as he can be seen missing tackles with regularity.

[StorminMormon86]

I'm hoping that Mike comes back for another season but more because of what he and Bruce have done and will continue to do if he's given another year

What exactly has he done (besides draft Griffin and Alfred Morris) that makes you want him back? He brought Haslett, changed the defensive scheme, traded for McNabb, and most importantly has a losing record as a head coach. I get the cap penalty and other excuses being made for him, but let's get real here. The only reason we went 10-6 last year was because of Griffin/Morris, not Shanahan.

[riggofan]

I'm hoping that Mike comes back for another season but more because of what he and Bruce have done and will continue to do if he's given another year

What exactly has he done (besides draft Griffin and Alfred Morris) that makes you want him back? He brought Haslett, changed the defensive scheme, traded for McNabb, and most importantly has a losing record as a head coach. I get the cap penalty and other excuses being made for him, but let's get real here. The only reason we went 10-6 last year was because of Griffin/Morris, not Shanahan.

Weird. I didn't know RGIII was calling his own plays last year.

[StorminMormon86]

Weird. I didn't know RGIII was calling his own plays last year.

Yeah it's also weird that the two years prior to getting RGIII, our offense looked average at best.

I don't think Kyle Shanahan is a bad coordinator. He gets a bad wrap by lots of fans. With that being said, his father still sucks as a head coach, and I fail to see what others see by wanting to stick with the guy. He was the one who brought Haslett. He was the one who fired Danny Smith and brought Burns. He was the one who switched our defense to a 3-4. He was the one who has made some less than spectacular FA signings as the Executive VP. Oh, and he was also the one who cost us that game against the Seahawks last year. Yep, he deserves an extension indeed.

[skinsfan#33]

Weird. I didn't know RGIII was calling his own plays last year.

Yeah it's also weird that the two years prior to getting RGIII, our offense looked average at best.

I don't think Kyle Shanahan is a bad coordinator. He gets a bad wrap by lots of fans. With that being said, his father still sucks as a head coach, and I fail to see what others see by wanting to stick with the guy. He was the one who brought Haslett. He was the one who fired Danny Smith and brought Burns. He was the one who switched our defense to a 3-4. He was the one who has made some less than spectacular FA signings as the Executive VP. Oh, and he was also the one who cost us that game against the Seahawks last year. Yep, he deserves an extension indeed.

He didn't fire Danny Smith, he let him go to his hometown team! However, he should have fired him, he just should have hired a competant replacement.

Switching to the 3-4 wasn't the problem, hiring Haslett was!

[markshark84]

I beg to differ when MS came here we had the 4th ranked defense! Now his changing to the 3-4 and the consistent defensive ranking of 28th - 31st has set this franchise back how long? No MS didn't have the talent that Reid got going to KC but there was still enough to win, to do better than what his tenure has shown. Portis, Sellers, ey, Moss as weapons when he first arrived isn't that bad. Until we have wholesale changes in our coaching staff you will be saying wait until next year every year. Jim Haslett isn't a good enough coordinator and it shows, if you can't succeed in New Orleans, and then in St. Louis, no way you can succeed in the NFC East and everyone knows this accept MS! The plays, the decisions it's pathetic, hell at least with Zorn and Cerrato you understood why we sucked! Now we have Mr. Offensive Guru Mr. HOF Coach and we still are playing as if Cerrato and Zorn where here, it's been 4 years, time to end this pathetic display of arrogance and BS coach speak....Seriously....

I'm not sure WTF happened, but I have written this response a couple times and it hasn't submitted. Here's the abbreviate version:

MS didn't inherit a top 5 defense: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/y ... 09/opp.htm . We were 18th in the league. So even I exaggerated!!!!!

Moving from 4-3 to 3-4 was very en vogue at the time. PITT and BAL were using these schemes and were effective. Now some of the best Ds in the NFL (including the best, KC) use it. It's not the scheme. It's the coaching and personnel. We have a DL that can't get 1-on-1 penetration and 3 of our 4 DBs can't stay with their man. That is a recipe for disaster.

You are also GROSSLY underestimating the talent MS inherited. It was actually one of the worst teams we've had in a very long time. You cite as our best "weapons":
1. Portis - a 30+ year old RB that was coming off injury and had <500 yards in the previous season
2. Moss - perhaps our best option, but still 30+, had less than 1k yards and 3 TDs
3. ey - a coming off injury TE that only played in 7 games the previous year. he was gone within 2 years
4. Sellers - a 35 year old FB that had 176 TOTAL YARDS in the previous season
We literally didn't have one single young offensive star on the team. Not one person on that team was worth building around. The talent was atrocious.

I also agree that Haslett is horrendous. I have never liked him.

You are also overestimating the talent we currently have. Our offense appears to be coming back as they are averaging over 30 ppg in the past 5. That is great. It appears RGIII is turning the corner. Our D, however, is averaging 35 points against since the bye. That is HORRENDOUS. You can't win like that. And it won't get better because we have a DL that can't get to the QB and DBs that can't cover. We LACK TALENT. We need upgrades at 9 of the 22 starting positions before we can be considered a talented team.

The roster talent may be on MS and BA, but when you think about the fact our current roster only has 9 players from the one MS/BA inherited and of the roster they inherited ONLY 17 PLAYERS ARE STILL IN THE LEAGUE (out of 53+!!!). That is how bad this team was. Add on the fact that in BA/MS' first draft they only had 6 draft picks ---- 3 of which were 7th rounders!!!!!! and only one within the 1st 3 rounds!!!!!! Do you really think this sounds like an easy/quick rebuild??????

I understand it is very easy to sit here and say blindly that things should be turned around without looking at the details. But you need to consider how difficult it is to build a winner in the NFL. We are WAY better off than we were in 2009.

Also --- you can LITERALLY ask anyone if I am a "we'll get them next year" type. I am the furthest thing from it on this board. However, I will give slack when it is warranted --- although I very rarely find it warranted. MS will coach out his contract. I personally don't see the issue with him coaching another year to see where it takes us. If this continues, fire him --- no question; but the one thing this franchise hasn't had since Snyder took over is stability. It needs that. This isn't the time for haste or thoughtless decisions.

And don't fool yourself about how good this team is (and was). We are not good. But, we can be in the future since we, for the first time in a long time, have young talent to build around.

[Kilmer72]

I beg to differ when MS came here we had the 4th ranked defense! Now his changing to the 3-4 and the consistent defensive ranking of 28th - 31st has set this franchise back how long? No MS didn't have the talent that Reid got going to KC but there was still enough to win, to do better than what his tenure has shown. Portis, Sellers, ey, Moss as weapons when he first arrived isn't that bad. Until we have wholesale changes in our coaching staff you will be saying wait until next year every year. Jim Haslett isn't a good enough coordinator and it shows, if you can't succeed in New Orleans, and then in St. Louis, no way you can succeed in the NFC East and everyone knows this accept MS! The plays, the decisions it's pathetic, hell at least with Zorn and Cerrato you understood why we sucked! Now we have Mr. Offensive Guru Mr. HOF Coach and we still are playing as if Cerrato and Zorn where here, it's been 4 years, time to end this pathetic display of arrogance and BS coach speak....Seriously....

I'm not sure WTF happened, but I have written this response a couple times and it hasn't submitted. Here's the abbreviate version:

MS didn't inherit a top 5 defense: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/y ... 09/opp.htm . We were 18th in the league. So even I exaggerated!!!!!

Moving from 4-3 to 3-4 was very en vogue at the time. PITT and BAL were using these schemes and were effective. Now some of the best Ds in the NFL (including the best, KC) use it. It's not the scheme. It's the coaching and personnel. We have a DL that can't get 1-on-1 penetration and 3 of our 4 DBs can't stay with their man. That is a recipe for disaster.

You are also GROSSLY underestimating the talent MS inherited. It was actually one of the worst teams we've had in a very long time. You cite as our best "weapons":
1. Portis - a 30+ year old RB that was coming off injury and had <500 yards in the previous season
2. Moss - perhaps our best option, but still 30+, had less than 1k yards and 3 TDs
3. ey - a coming off injury TE that only played in 7 games the previous year. he was gone within 2 years
4. Sellers - a 35 year old FB that had 176 TOTAL YARDS in the previous season
We literally didn't have one single young offensive star on the team. Not one person on that team was worth building around. The talent was atrocious.

I also agree that Haslett is horrendous. I have never liked him.

You are also overestimating the talent we currently have. Our offense appears to be coming back as they are averaging over 30 ppg in the past 5. That is great. It appears RGIII is turning the corner. Our D, however, is averaging 35 points against since the bye. That is HORRENDOUS. You can't win like that. And it won't get better because we have a DL that can't get to the QB and DBs that can't cover. We LACK TALENT. We need upgrades at 9 of the 22 starting positions before we can be considered a talented team.

The roster talent may be on MS and BA, but when you think about the fact our current roster only has 9 players from the one MS/BA inherited and of the roster they inherited ONLY 17 PLAYERS ARE STILL IN THE LEAGUE (out of 53+!!!). That is how bad this team was. Add on the fact that in BA/MS' first draft they only had 6 draft picks ---- 3 of which were 7th rounders!!!!!! and only one within the 1st 3 rounds!!!!!! Do you really think this sounds like an easy/quick rebuild??????

I understand it is very easy to sit here and say blindly that things should be turned around without looking at the details. But you need to consider how difficult it is to build a winner in the NFL. We are WAY better off than we were in 2009.

Also --- you can LITERALLY ask anyone if I am a "we'll get them next year" type. I am the furthest thing from it on this board. However, I will give slack when it is warranted --- although I very rarely find it warranted. MS will coach out his contract. I personally don't see the issue with him coaching another year to see where it takes us. If this continues, fire him --- no question; but the one thing this franchise hasn't had since Snyder took over is stability. It needs that. This isn't the time for haste or thoughtless decisions.

And don't fool yourself about how good this team is (and was). We are not good. But, we can be in the future since we, for the first time in a long time, have young talent to build around.

And there lies a huge problem. We are badly missing Adam Carriker.

[SkinsJock]

IMHO we need to settle down and let things play out here …
I understand that we're all very disappointed in how things are going but we also need to understand where we were a little while ago and how far we've come

we have a franchise QB and a bunch of very good young players to continue to build around

unless things come completely apart here in the next 7 games, we really need to give Mike and Bruce another year

I'm not a fan of Mike or Kyle or Haslett but I'm also not advocating that any of them should be let go at the end of the season

Let's let this season play out

[Kilmer72]

Personally, I like Kyle. He is young and bringing in his own style. That is the pro. The con is clock management, adjustments and finally giving up on what is working. nothing irritates me more than fixing something that isn't broke.

[StorminMormon86]

I don't want to see anyone fired, I just don't want the Shanahan regime to return after 5 years (with the exception of Kyle, if our offense continues to improve). And if we get blown out to the Eagles on Sunday, Haslett needs to get fired.

[markshark84]

And there lies a huge problem. We are badly missing Adam Carriker.

Carriker is no better. He NEVER got to the QB. He's on the wrong side of 30, has 9 career sacks in 4 years, and hasn't played in 2. He's nowhere close to the answer we need. Even if he were playing, we'd still need an upgrade.

[Kilmer72]

And there lies a huge problem. We are badly missing Adam Carriker.

Carriker is no better. He NEVER got to the QB. He's on the wrong side of 30, has 9 career sacks in 4 years, and hasn't played in 2. He's nowhere close to the answer we need. Even if he were playing, we'd still need an upgrade.

Carriker was no sack machine but he did get penetration and stop the run. He did more than just clog the line and wait for LBs to make the stop.

this may all be a moot point anyway because Haslett believes Redskins have another 7-0 run in them.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/foo ... n-in-them/

[chiefhog44]

Interesting comments. I can't say that I've ever really heard the missing draft picks from the RGIII trade used as an excuse for Shanahan. I mean, at this point its only really the one 2013 pick we're missing. (And given our finish last year not an especially high one.)

Exactly. I'm certainly not saying this, and I really haven't found anyone who's made it into an excuse. chiefhog is swinging at shadows with this one.

(Btw, we also traded a 2nd in that same draft, so we have felt the "loss" of two picks so far.)

No doubt we could use another first round stud on defense. But would anybody rather have, say, Ndamakong Suh right now and be starting Rex Grossman at QB instead of RGIII?

You're probably right that it remains to be seen whether RGIII was worth those picks. Avoiding injury this year would be a big step! Personally I feel better about the trade now than I did during that draft though.

Same here.

I also feel a little better that the Colts got so damn lucky, because they went and traded a 1st rounder to Cleveland for Trent 3.0 (or whatever he is now). Talk about a wasted pick.

hanburgerheel wrote:
If having a low post-count = seeing things for exactly what they are...fine with me.

Griffin was much too expensive for what was needed and what is needed.

This coaching staff is an abomination. They will wind-up ruining what tiny improvements they ever brought to the team if they are left in-charge.

It only took a few days to see it but here it bud

[SkinsJock]

The Redskins have finally got their franchise QB and in the same draft they picked up Alfred Morris in the third round …

we are very, very fortunate

that's 'What Happened' …

[Deadskins]

The Redskins have finally got their franchise QB and in the same draft they picked up Alfred Morris in the third round …

we are very, very fortunate

that's 'What Happened' …

and Cousins in the 2nd?

[ACW]

How did the team in general deteriorate so badly? I don't think we can blame RGIII's injury anymore.

[Kilmer72]

How did the team in general deteriorate so badly? I don't think we can blame RGIII's injury anymore.

That is a hard question to answer. I would guess that injury for RG3 has some to do with it. There is also the cap penality. Then there is a new ST coach and a new philosophy. Then there is the fact that coaching adjustments is an issue and then there is people losing time due to illegal hits and banned drugs. Tackling...Then there is..... There is plenty of excuses man. All is true, but we still have to do better. All of the above and then some.

[SkinsJock]

It was NEVER solely due to RG3's injury …

the Redskins have MANY young, good players but we have NOT played as well as we are capable of this season

this team has many areas of concern to be addressed

HOWEVER

we still have our franchise QB and a number of very good players to build a better team around

[markshark84]

How did the team in general deteriorate so badly? I don't think we can blame RGIII's injury anymore.

Our "deterioration" was inevitable. Last season our defense only held a team to under 20 points 3 times. The only reason we were winning was because our offense was top 5 in the league and dropping close to 30 a game. This year they are averaging closer to 20. Our defense is incapable of holding teams to less than 20 a game. If our offense doesn't score 30+, we'll lose every time -- and that is what's happening.

So ultimately it is our defenses' fault for losing, but the difference between last year and this one is that our offense (mainly due to RGIIIs inability to play well) isn't destroying teams like it was last year.

[oneman56]

How did the team in general deteriorate so badly? I don't think we can blame RGIII's injury anymore.

Our "deterioration" was inevitable. Last season our defense only held a team to under 20 points 3 times. The only reason we were winning was because our offense was top 5 in the league and dropping close to 30 a game. This year they are averaging closer to 20. Our defense is incapable of holding teams to less than 20 a game. If our offense doesn't score 30+, we'll lose every time -- and that is what's happening.

So ultimately it is our defenses' fault for losing, but the difference between last year and this one is that our offense (mainly due to RGIIIs inability to play well) isn't destroying teams like it was last year.

Completely agree with this. Our D needed to be able to help this team tread water in the early going of the season while RGIII got his legs back and they were incapable of doing so. Once our O came around and started to resemble last years offense (about the past 3 weeks maybe) we were in the same hole as last year (3 games under .500) and i think mentally a little demoralized. The players expected more and it's hard to keep fighting an uphill battle, year after year. Fletcher is not the same, RGIII is not the same yet, nobody has stepped up opposite Garcon, no safety play and despite Rak's return and Meriweather's the defense isn't any better.