What Happened???

[SkinsJock]

ah! that's the key! - if things aren't working it must be the scheme - give me a break

I agree that we are not playing defense very well but it's MOST certainly not because of the scheme …


but what do I know … maybe we need to change the scheme on offense and special teams at the same time

let's start another throw them all out thread ….

[riggofan]

I just worry that if you switch back to the 4-3, you're in the same boat again. Another two or three years of trying to get the right players to run THAT scheme. With some cap room next year, I would hope we could pick up a player or two to fill in some of the places where we're lacking in the 3-4. Maybe a guy in the draft?

I don't know. I'm just not in favor of more change just for the sake of change.

[Kilmer72]

I just worry that if you switch back to the 4-3, you're in the same boat again. Another two or three years of trying to get the right players to run THAT scheme. With some cap room next year, I would hope we could pick up a player or two to fill in some of the places where we're lacking in the 3-4. Maybe a guy in the draft?

I don't know. I'm just not in favor of more change just for the sake of change.

I agree 100%, although, I am still a little peeved that they tried to fix something that wasn't broke and failed; we had many problems on offense.

[cleg]

I am really disappointed in the coaching of this team. I had not illusions (well, small ones) that this team would be Super Bowl bound or anything but even with the cap penalties and Robert recovering this team is regressing. I hope that they fire the Shanahan family - I really think that with more clever and forward thinking coaching this team has the basics to be good.

[SkinsJock]

I just worry that if you switch back to the 4-3, you're in the same boat again. Another two or three years of trying to get the right players to run THAT scheme. With some cap room next year, I would hope we could pick up a player or two to fill in some of the places where we're lacking in the 3-4. Maybe a guy in the draft? I don't know. I'm just not in favor of more change just for the sake of change.

I agree 100%, although, I am still a little peeved that they tried to fix something that wasn't broke and failed; we had many problems on offense.

not sure I understand what they "tried to fix" … at the end of last season we were the NFC East champs ..

we did NOT have any major changes and especially on defense we get players back that would/should make us better …

we are NOT seeing better play from the Redskins - NOT on defense, NOT on offense and NOT on Special Teams

we didn't have to "fix" anything - we are just not playing OR coaching as well as we were

we are not better than we were and we should be

[Kilmer72]

I was referring to the switch from 43 to 34. According to them (Shanahans) or Mike in particular, the 43 doesn't create turnovers, yet the 2010 Neworleans Saints 43 created more than any defense that year. I could be wrong, but what I remember; this is exactly what happened.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/t ... r/2010.htm


Not only that but our previous 43 was usually top 12 which our fearsome 34 has yet to achieve. Not only that but they as in JH have said in the past they do not care about stats or yards. Seems to me I would rather have teams not score very many points but, what do I know?

[Kilmer72]

Also, when a lot of teams are dipping into the draft pool to get 34 guys like tweeners, it leaves people open that can be 43 defensive linemen. As in defensive ends. Like I said before what do I know? I am just a fan that sees things differently than others. Some of these tweeners a la Rakpo can't cover. Philip Daniels said he was his size once.

[SkinsJock]

I was referring to the switch from 43 to 34. According to them (Shanahans) or Mike in particular, the 43 doesn't create turnovers, yet the 2010 Neworleans Saints 43 created more than any defense that year. I could be wrong, but what I remember; this is exactly what happened.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/t ... r/2010.htm


Not only that but our previous 43 was usually top 12 which our fearsome 34 has yet to achieve. Not only that but they as in JH have said in the past they do not care about stats or yards. Seems to me I would rather have teams not score very many points but, what do I know?

THIS JUST IN - we won the NFC East with a group of players on defense that helped this team go 7-0

we actually "added" players this offseason with the return of some really good players ….

this has NOTHING to do with scheme - NOTHING!

GET IT?

[Kilmer72]

I was referring to the switch from 43 to 34. According to them (Shanahans) or Mike in particular, the 43 doesn't create turnovers, yet the 2010 Neworleans Saints 43 created more than any defense that year. I could be wrong, but what I remember; this is exactly what happened.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/t ... r/2010.htm


Not only that but our previous 43 was usually top 12 which our fearsome 34 has yet to achieve. Not only that but they as in JH have said in the past they do not care about stats or yards. Seems to me I would rather have teams not score very many points but, what do I know?

THIS JUST IN - we won the NFC East with a group of players on defense that helped this team go 7-0

we actually "added" players this offseason with the return of some really good players ….

this has NOTHING to do with scheme - NOTHING!

GET IT?

yes I get it. I would like to know what the problem is then? If it has nothing to do with scheme. This team is better than last year but yet we won the NFC east. This year doesn't give me that feeling like last year when we were 3 and 6. I wish someone would explain the problem on defense for this year. Maybe it is you that can do this. Please.

[oneman56]

I was referring to the switch from 43 to 34. According to them (Shanahans) or Mike in particular, the 43 doesn't create turnovers, yet the 2010 Neworleans Saints 43 created more than any defense that year. I could be wrong, but what I remember; this is exactly what happened.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/t ... r/2010.htm


Not only that but our previous 43 was usually top 12 which our fearsome 34 has yet to achieve. Not only that but they as in JH have said in the past they do not care about stats or yards. Seems to me I would rather have teams not score very many points but, what do I know?

THIS JUST IN - we won the NFC East with a group of players on defense that helped this team go 7-0

we actually "added" players this offseason with the return of some really good players ….

this has NOTHING to do with scheme - NOTHING!
GET IT?

We won the NFC East in a down year mostly due to a prolific offense that the league wasn't quite ready for and admittedly some good coaching by Haslett (hard to imagine right now) that got just enough out of our defense.. As far as adding players in the offseason and the return of good players, who cares and what has it done? The defense is atrocious and your comments have nothing to do with them debating what they think should've been addressed when Shanny arrived and what should have been left alone. If you think the current scheme AND players on defense is going to win then i don't know what to say to you. Our 3-4, no matter how you look at it, has yet to be consistent and has yet to carry this team for any stretch. Maybe this has nothing to do with scheme, maybe it has everything. I still see guys uncovered, we still can't rush the passer and we still don't get off the field on 3rd downs. So, scheme, coaching players, I don't care but take a pick and leave the excuses of winning last year where they belong..in the past. The point they were making is that we had a good defense that perhaps was better left alone.

[Kilmer72]

+10000 I guess I am not insane after all. Thank you oneman56.

[timkp]

What happened in the Vikings game, who knows? But I have several opinions on the Redskins issues. Top of my list right now is coaching. I don't think Shanahan is a motivator. What happened against the Vikings is more the norm than the exception. Four years under Shanny and, aside from a miracle last year, the season is always over by the middle of the season. Course it's pretty much been that way under the entirety of the current ownership. So, I can complain about Shanny, but if he goes what do we get next? Sorry, I guess I've drifted into ownership, back to coaching. One of the specifics that drives me nuts is the complete lack of a clock management concept. To me, that is coaching. Every dang game you can count on Robert calling a time out within the first five minutes. Time outs are precious, well coached teams save them for the 2 min drill. To rub salt in the wound we're as likely as not to get a delay of game penalty after the time out. It's crazy. Why did young Shanny abandon the running game in the 2nd half. Alf was getting 6 yards every time he touched the ball. Since the O line did not seem to think pass blocking was important, keep running Alf. Run the same thing until they show they can stop it. Boring, maybe, but who cares, the objective is to win.

Oh well enough from me. There are positives about always being out of contention at the season mid-point. 1) we fans can enjoy the rest of the season, free from the stress of playoff worries; 2) the players can book their off season vacations earlier; 3) Without the playoffs, the players will be better rested for another 3-6 start next year. Yea, there are positives.

[Kilmer72]

What happened in the Vikings game, who knows? But I have several opinions on the Redskins issues. Top of my list right now is coaching. I don't think Shanahan is a motivator. What happened against the Vikings is more the norm than the exception. Four years under Shanny and, aside from a miracle last year, the season is always over by the middle of the season. Course it's pretty much been that way under the entirety of the current ownership. So, I can complain about Shanny, but if he goes what do we get next? Sorry, I guess I've drifted into ownership, back to coaching. One of the specifics that drives me nuts is the complete lack of a clock management concept. To me, that is coaching. Every dang game you can count on Robert calling a time out within the first five minutes. Time outs are precious, well coached teams save them for the 2 min drill. To rub salt in the wound we're as likely as not to get a delay of game penalty after the time out. It's crazy. Why did young Shanny abandon the running game in the 2nd half. Alf was getting 6 yards every time he touched the ball. Since the O line did not seem to think pass blocking was important, keep running Alf. Run the same thing until they show they can stop it. Boring, maybe, but who cares, the objective is to win.

Oh well enough from me. There are positives about always being out of contention at the season mid-point. 1) we fans can enjoy the rest of the season, free from the stress of playoff worries; 2) the players can book their off season vacations earlier; 3) Without the playoffs, the players will be better rested for another 3-6 start next year. Yea, there are positives.

Welcome aboard. I like it when people make sense. Your right in my opinion. The Shans typically have poor clock management. I do not want to see another regime come in though. Every time this happens with the exception Zorn they have to totally dismantle the team. Any other coach that comes in here will destroy our oline which wouldn't bother me one bit. I would hate to see all the other changes because then you have to give them another 3 years to show real promise. Stability is something that is rare here.

[Kilmer72]

I'm serious here; I went to bed at halftime, but:
*We had a 10-point lead (and our offense looked damn efficient).
*We outgained them by 126 yards.
*Peterson rushed 20 times for 75 yards (under 4 YPC).
*We called 36 rushing plays (Morris: 26 carries for 139 yards=5+ YPC) and 37 pass plays (RGIII ~66% and 3 TDs).
How'd we lose?

Well by now I am sure you read enough. To sum it up our beleaguered defense had their toosh handed to them in short and we abandoned the run again.

[SkinsJock]

looking at the first 2 years of Mike's coaching as being THE reason we're seeing bad play this season is just ludicrous - there are many issues that have contributed to this not just Mike's decision to change to a 3-4

the problems on defense are not just due to the scheme … if you don't execute or tackle it does not matter what scheme is used



I don't know why our coordinators on offense and defense are not doing their jobs as well

IMHO the problems are because the coordinators have not done as good a job getting more out of the players and from a lack of 'in game' adjustments
the players are not playing as well together as they should be and that IMHO is on the OC and DC

[riggofan]

I just worry that if you switch back to the 4-3, you're in the same boat again. Another two or three years of trying to get the right players to run THAT scheme. With some cap room next year, I would hope we could pick up a player or two to fill in some of the places where we're lacking in the 3-4. Maybe a guy in the draft?

I don't know. I'm just not in favor of more change just for the sake of change.

I agree 100%, although, I am still a little peeved that they tried to fix something that wasn't broke and failed; we had many problems on offense.

Yeah I'm agreeing right back with you. There are some real mistakes Shanahan made when he took over the team. McNabb obviously. But I think the defense switch was a case of trying to do too much and underestimating all of the other problems going on with the team.

[Kilmer72]

looking at the first 2 years of Mike's coaching as being THE reason we're seeing bad play this season is just ludicrous - there are many issues that have contributed to this not just Mike's decision to change to a 3-4

the problems on defense are not just due to the scheme … if you don't execute or tackle it does not matter what scheme is used



I don't know why our coordinators on offense and defense are not doing their jobs as well

IMHO the problems are because the coordinators have not done as good a job getting more out of the players and from a lack of 'in game' adjustments
the players are not playing as well together as they should be and that IMHO is on the OC and DC

Yet you said this "THIS JUST IN - we won the NFC East with a group of players on defense that helped this team go 7-0

we actually "added" players this offseason with the return of some really good players ….

this has NOTHING to do with scheme - NOTHING!

GET IT?"

[markshark84]

looking at the first 2 years of Mike's coaching as being THE reason we're seeing bad play this season is just ludicrous - there are many issues that have contributed to this not just Mike's decision to change to a 3-4

the problems on defense are not just due to the scheme … if you don't execute or tackle it does not matter what scheme is used

I don't know why our coordinators on offense and defense are not doing their jobs as well

IMHO the problems are because the coordinators have not done as good a job getting more out of the players and from a lack of 'in game' adjustments
the players are not playing as well together as they should be and that IMHO is on the OC and DC

I'll agree with most other posters on the 3-4 to 4-3 -- especially when you look at our personnel. We have the personnel for the 3-4; not 4-3.

As far as why our DC/OC aren't doing well -- I personally think that's an easy answer. As far as DC, Haslett just isn't a top level DC. Add on the fact that we have absolutely NO DL pass rush outside of Kerrigan and combine that with our poor DB situtation --- and you have a bad D. In order for this D to improve, we have to get 2 pass rushing DEs and upgrades at the CB and safety position --- and that's just a start.

As far as the OC --- I look at that as more having to rework an offense due to the RGIII injury. KS' play calling has been poor, but he had to rework an entire offense. That said, our offense is averaging 30+ ppg over the past 4 weeks --- so I don't see our offense issues as being significant.

What's significant is the fact our defense is AVERAGING 35 POINTS AGAINST SINCE THE BYE. That's the issue; not our offense.

[SkinsJock]

Is it my imagination that Orakpo is not playing at the same level?

[Kilmer72]

Is it my imagination that Orakpo is not playing at the same level?

I think Rakpo is playing at the same level. I think he is a 43 defensive end that needs to put a little weight on. He only has a couple of moves.
As a defensive end with his hand in the dirt, I believe he is a much better Rakpo. Just my

[crazyhorse1]

Few things I want to add other than being inconsistent, which has to be solved than we can be a contender. We will have more cap space next year, hopefully the defensive players will improve and we can fill in the wholes through the draft and FA. If a better defensive coordinator is available sign him.

Once I see consistency, I will regain hope. Beat the teams your supposed to beat. We have a lot of division games still.


Plus side I the Jordan Reed is going to be a really good offensive tight end. Lowers cap room without Davis.

Just thought if were out of playoff contention in December. Have Kirk Cousins start and have him audition for teams and get a 1st or 2nd round draft pick for him (this is not realistic though) lol.

EA7649 for the life of me can you please explain your thought process? in the 4 years Shanahan has been here what has he done to merit another year? What has Haslett, Burns or any other coach on this staff done to merit more time? This type of things that has gone on is what you expect from a new coach, not someone that is supposed to be some offensive guru genius. In life one thing that a mature person learns, processes and understands is you don't fix what isn't broken. Shanahan did that with the 4th rated defense the first year coming here. That is but one issue that for me can't be swept under the rug, Cap gate is another issue. Now as my "third" strike after last year, to be this far into the season and not take play calling away from that downed syndrome Forrest Gump looking son of his is the last straw that broke this camels back. This team will not get any better FACT, we need a young coaching staff that has a kill first mentality on the field, not some arrogant butt whiffs who use the same memo week after week talking about practicing to get better, you can practice 24 by 7 but if the teachers or the coaches are crap, then you field what is learned and taught. All these people on here screaming for Cousins, screaming for players, IT'S NOT THE PLAYERS ITS THE COACHING STAFF and last night pretty much nails that FACT in the coffin of the 2013 season.......

We have wholes in the defense like defensive backs. I didn't really say much about Shanahans ability to coach with my post. I said if there is a better defensive coach available sign him. Shanahan has been alright coach, but I think his son has been a better offensive coordinator than his dad as a coach. But I mostly agree with what you said, but we do have wholes in the team with players skills and not being penalized 18million of cap space will be a good thing. And I was saying play Cousins if we are out of playoff contention to get him for a high draft pick, than sign another decent quarterback this draft. If we are in playoff contention than of course play RG3.

"Wholes" should be spelled "holes."

[Deadskins]

Seeing as it was a no cap year I don't blame the Skins or Cowboys for trying. The part that gets me is when you make an example of someone or someones, and others didn't take part in the collusion, then why for Gods sake did they only have to put hurt on two teams? Answer = Mara. It's the good ole boys club and if you aren't part of the group, then YOU MUST OBEY SLAVE.

It's obviously Mara, since other teams outside our division (eg Bears Peppers' contract) didn't get penalized for doing the exact same thing.

[SkinsJock]

let's face it - a few years ago we were a disaster - Dan Snyder seemed to finally understand that we needed a FO to turn things around

Bruce Allen & Mike Shanahan have done a pretty good job in that capacity

Mike Shanahan has not done as well as HC - I admit I have never been much of a fan of Mike as a HC
he did not have much to work with but some of his early decisions like bringing in McNabb and switching to the 3-4, were in hindsight, very bad
ALSO, his appointments to his coaching staff have not been all that great either and losing a ST great like Danny Smith for Burns is a further indication of that

we have been badly strapped by the salary cap BS initiated by Goodell and obviously forced by Mara
we were able to win the NFC East but we were not able to work on areas of concern and are paying the price this season

we're in that same old refrain, it seems - wait until next year

we do have a number of good young players that I'm sure will be added to as soon as possible and we have a QB

we are getting better but we've been stalled very successfully by Goodell and Mara


last year we finished strong and hopefully this year we can finish with a 4-2 record in the NfC East

[markshark84]

let's face it - a few years ago we were a disaster - Dan Snyder seemed to finally understand that we needed a FO to turn things around

Bruce Allen & Mike Shanahan have done a pretty good job in that capacity

Mike Shanahan has not done as well as HC - I admit I have never been much of a fan of Mike as a HC
he did not have much to work with but some of his early decisions like bringing in McNabb and switching to the 3-4, were in hindsight, very bad
ALSO, his appointments to his coaching staff have not been all that great either and losing a ST great like Danny Smith for Burns is a further indication of that

we have been badly strapped by the salary cap BS initiated by Goodell and obviously forced by Mara
we were able to win the NFC East but we were not able to work on areas of concern and are paying the price this season

we're in that same old refrain, it seems - wait until next year

we do have a number of good young players that I'm sure will be added to as soon as possible and we have a QB

we are getting better but we've been stalled very successfully by Goodell and Mara


last year we finished strong and hopefully this year we can finish with a 4-2 record in the NfC East

I agree with much of this. But the one thing I stress is that we need to ride out the storm. We need to get past the salary cap hit WITHOUT wasting our draft picks to make up for our inability to use the FA market. I believe that we have done a good job of this. Once this draft has passed, we will finally have our full array of draft picks.

I, in part, don't put a ton of blame on MS mainly because of what he walked into. Snyder/Cerrato destroyed this franchise and set it back signficantly. While I would have loved to see a short turn around like KC had, MS didn't have nearly the same pieces Reid had. KC already had a top level defense and solid offense that was plagued by injuries in the prior year and lacked an adequate QB --- not to mention top draft picks. It had a recipe for short recovery if they found the few right players. MS inherited a team that had an average D, bottom 5 offense, and no draft picks. It was miles from recovery.

While I have never been a "wait until next year" guy, I found myself saying this even before the season started. That said, our D is a long ways away. We need upgrades at 5 positions -- MINIMUM. We also need a new OG and OT; but these are secondary to our defensive needs. The important thing is that we have the key piece -- QB.

[DaSkinz Baby]

let's face it - a few years ago we were a disaster - Dan Snyder seemed to finally understand that we needed a FO to turn things around

Bruce Allen & Mike Shanahan have done a pretty good job in that capacity

Mike Shanahan has not done as well as HC - I admit I have never been much of a fan of Mike as a HC
he did not have much to work with but some of his early decisions like bringing in McNabb and switching to the 3-4, were in hindsight, very bad
ALSO, his appointments to his coaching staff have not been all that great either and losing a ST great like Danny Smith for Burns is a further indication of that

we have been badly strapped by the salary cap BS initiated by Goodell and obviously forced by Mara
we were able to win the NFC East but we were not able to work on areas of concern and are paying the price this season

we're in that same old refrain, it seems - wait until next year

we do have a number of good young players that I'm sure will be added to as soon as possible and we have a QB

we are getting better but we've been stalled very successfully by Goodell and Mara


last year we finished strong and hopefully this year we can finish with a 4-2 record in the NfC East

I agree with much of this. But the one thing I stress is that we need to ride out the storm. We need to get past the salary cap hit WITHOUT wasting our draft picks to make up for our inability to use the FA market. I believe that we have done a good job of this. Once this draft has passed, we will finally have our full array of draft picks.

I, in part, don't put a ton of blame on MS mainly because of what he walked into. Snyder/Cerrato destroyed this franchise and set it back signficantly. While I would have loved to see a short turn around like KC had, MS didn't have nearly the same pieces Reid had. KC already had a top level defense and solid offense that was plagued by injuries in the prior year and lacked an adequate QB --- not to mention top draft picks. It had a recipe for short recovery if they found the few right players. MS inherited a team that had an average D, bottom 5 offense, and no draft picks. It was miles from recovery.

While I have never been a "wait until next year" guy, I found myself saying this even before the season started. That said, our D is a long ways away. We need upgrades at 5 positions -- MINIMUM. We also need a new OG and OT; but these are secondary to our defensive needs. The important thing is that we have the key piece -- QB.

I beg to differ when MS came here we had the 4th ranked defense! Now his changing to the 3-4 and the consistent defensive ranking of 28th - 31st has set this franchise back how long? No MS didn't have the talent that Reid got going to KC but there was still enough to win, to do better than what his tenure has shown. Portis, Sellers, ey, Moss as weapons when he first arrived isn't that bad. Until we have wholesale changes in our coaching staff you will be saying wait until next year every year. Jim Haslett isn't a good enough coordinator and it shows, if you can't succeed in New Orleans, and then in St. Louis, no way you can succeed in the NFC East and everyone knows this accept MS! The plays, the decisions it's pathetic, hell at least with Zorn and Cerrato you understood why we sucked! Now we have Mr. Offensive Guru Mr. HOF Coach and we still are playing as if Cerrato and Zorn where here, it's been 4 years, time to end this pathetic display of arrogance and BS coach speak....Seriously....