This writer thinks Shanahan can be compared to Zorn

[Deadskins]

Dem writers?....some dem not so smart....look what one genius had to say after last years first pre-season game:

http://www.footballnation.com/content/w ... iii/15860/

Wow! How clueless is that guy? Probably a Cowpie fan.

[skinsfan#33]

Was Todd Collins still an option for Zorn? Sure.

Um, no. Like Ray said, Campbell was the ownership's choice for starter, and Zorn was brought in to turn him into a player. Not to mention that Collins experience was in Al Saunder's system, a fact that helped him immensely in his tenure at starter (though I suspect he still would have outplayed JC in Zorn's system too). There was very little difference in the players Zorn and Shanahan inherited, anyway. The difference is that Mike had the authority to make changes, and Jim didn't.

Doyou you have any proof that Campbell was the choice of the owner?

No, No, you don't, because there isn't any.

JZ was brought in to be Jim Fassel's OC becausethat thatis is who he wanted, but the fan reaction to the rumor Fassel was going to be the HC made Snyder turn over coaching search to Vinny and punt on the plans to hire Fassel.

Saying the talent level of the players Zorn inherited was similar to what MS received is just laughable. Stopit it, my side hurts!

Granted they were getting old fast but Jim had MUCH more to work with than Mike had.

[Deadskins]

Was Todd Collins still an option for Zorn? Sure.

Um, no. Like Ray said, Campbell was the ownership's choice for starter, and Zorn was brought in to turn him into a player. Not to mention that Collins experience was in Al Saunder's system, a fact that helped him immensely in his tenure at starter (though I suspect he still would have outplayed JC in Zorn's system too). There was very little difference in the players Zorn and Shanahan inherited, anyway. The difference is that Mike had the authority to make changes, and Jim didn't.

Doyou you have any proof that Campbell was the choice of the owner?

No, No, you don't, because there isn't any.

JZ was brought in to be Jim Fassel's OC becausethat thatis is who he wanted, but the fan reaction to the rumor Fassel was going to be the HC made Snyder turn over coaching search to Vinny and punt on the plans to hire Fassel.

Saying the talent level of the players Zorn inherited was similar to what MS received is just laughable. Stopit it, my side hurts!

Granted they were getting old fast but Jim had MUCH more to work with than Mike had.

What you say about Fassel is true, but that has absolutely nothing to do wi JC being the FO's choice for starter, which he was. You also totally ignored my point about TC having been in Saunders' system for 10 years.

What's laughable is your claim that the team Mike inherited just two years later was much different than the one Zorn got? Please enlighten us with all the different players between the two.

[welch]

Well, I can compare a rowboat to the battleship New Jersey, so I guess a "sports writer" can compare a losing head cvoach to one who has assembled and coached a playoff team. It would be silly to suggest that Zorn is as good as Shanny, of course.

Another comparison: Joe Gibbs led what would become Zorn's team to an end-season win streak and the playoffs. Zorn led the same players down a rabbit-hole. In comparison, Joe Gibbs appears to be a "plus-plus coach". Zorn was a "minus coach".

Shanahan is at least a "plus".

[riggofan]

... Truthfully, Zorn and Shanahan cannot be honestly compared .... with Shanahan having decades of experience and a solid reputation and free reign over the roster, while Zorn was selected to implement whatever Danny/Vinny had in mind, while having no control whatsoever over anything.

you're exactly right and I also agree about Campbell - he just did not have what it takes to be a decent, let alone good, QB

I don't think that's a fair assessment at all. Campbell has been a "decent" QB at times in his career. He was "decent" with the Raiders before he got injured. He's been "decent" enough to last in the league for seven years, and I won't be surprised at all to see him starting in Cleveland at some point this year.

I think what Campbell clearly wasn't was a first round franchise QB. He was a big disappointment here in Washington, and rightly so, because that was the expectation.

[SkinsJock]

Jason Campbell is just NOT what any franchise would be really pleased to have as their starting QB - never was & never will be

that's just the way it is in the NFL when you don't REALLY want to work hard enough

[emoses14]

Jason Campbell is just NOT what any franchise would be really pleased to have as their starting QB - never was & never will be

that's just the way it is in the NFL when you don't REALLY want to work hard enough

Campbell didn't have the talent set to make it work. He (often) didn't have the o-line to make it work. He damn sure didn't have any modicum of organizational or coaching stability to make it work. He did not have "IT" to make it work.

WHAT HE HAD in SPADES was character and work ethic. To suggest otherwise is insane.

[SkinsJock]

when you get the opportunity to play in the NFL - you either make it or not based on your drive to be better - whatever talent Campbell had as a player, his drive and desire to be a better QB was never there

Campbell might have been an all round nice guy with a great work ethic - he just never seemed to want to push himself and the guys around him to be better

A good NFL QB is a leader - Campbell might have made a good boy scout leader - he certainly never looked like he was going to inspire greatness out of the players around him

[emoses14]

when you get the opportunity to play in the NFL - you either make it or not based on your drive to be better - whatever talent Campbell had as a player, his drive and desire to be a better QB was never there

Campbell might have been an all round nice guy with a great work ethic - he just never seemed to want to push himself and the guys around him to be better

A good NFL QB is a leader - Campbell might have made a good boy scout leader - he certainly never looked like he was going to inspire greatness out of the players around him

This is not correct. Again, the causal logic of "NFL Player A didn't produce, therefore he didn't work hard enough" is such a leap of logic that skips over enough factors to fill the grand canyon, not the least of which is the fact that there are at any given time no less than 10 other guys' and their work ethic, talent and drive, let alone production, and usually 21 other guys' who have a direct impact on the quarterback's (or any other player's ability to produce. This doesn't even take into account coaches.
Please let me know what player, coach, reporter, kid on the street, analyst or anyone other than you (i.e. anyone who would actually be in a position to credibly opine on the points) has ever said this about Campbell. All I've ever read about him is essentially the exact opposite.

No problem with this because it's simply your opinion that he never appeared [TO YOU] to want to make himself better. The difference between work ethic and talent in this case is that the former deals with "want to" and the latter deals with "can or can't" Again, I have never seen anything credible to suggest that he had a failure of work ethic or "want to". What Campbell clearly lacked was the talent to actually accomplish this.

[Chris Luva Luva]

when you get the opportunity to play in the NFL - you either make it or not based on your drive to be better - whatever talent Campbell had as a player, his drive and desire to be a better QB was never there

Naw, don't think I can roll with you. That's really such a "fan" comment. Albert Haynesworth didn't have drive, he didn't want to get better. Jason Campbell was a lot of things, but he wasn't that.

And let's put the blame where it belongs. Jason had an inept owner, front office and multiple coaching and scheme changes throughout his tenure here. He was a good kid that got ruined by a terrible franchise.

[SkinsJock]

I agree about Campbell not being in the right place or having a very good situation around him but I also feel that he just did not apply himself or try to make things better

He has the talent, he just does not seem to want to be the man

I just get the feeling that he's not going to become a good NFL QB - and that's on him in my book

I would not compare Haynesworth and Campbell - Campbell is a ton more motivated to be an NFL player than Haynesworth ever was

[Chris Luva Luva]

I agree about Campbell not being in the right place or having a very good situation around him but I also feel that he just did not apply himself or try to make things better

I understand why you might feel that way, but I simply don't understand how you'd ever truly know these things to be true. How you feel and what's factually accurate are two different things. What we know to be factually correct is that Jason like every other person in this organization failed to achieve greatness. And that failure has a root and that root WAS Dan Snyder. For that alone, I don't blame ANYONE on the rosters of the past for their shortcomings. They could NOT succeed under the past regimes, they could NOT. It was impossible. The moment Snyder relinquised control, things were totally different.

He has the talent, he just does not seem to want to be the man

He would have failed if he wanted to "the man". You don't like Jason's demeanor and neither did I. But...

Jason's demeanor would not have solved the following...

The acquistion of:
Archuletta
Brandon Lloyd
Haynesworth
Bruce Smith

Shall I continue?


Jason's demeanor wouldn't not have solved us being in cap hell.
Jason's demeanor wouldn't not have solved us pissing away draft picks.
Jason's demeanor wouldn't not have solved us not having depth.
Jason's demeanor wouldn't not have solved us running Joe Gibbs playbook one year with success and then scrapping it all to get Al Saunders 400+ page playbook.
Jason's demeanor wouldn't not have solved the problem of how Jim Zorn was promoted to HC?
Jason's demeanor wouldn't not have solved the problem of Snyder making Jim Zorn a figurehead and pulling strings in the background?
Jason's demeanor wouldn't not have solved the problem of us not having a practice bubble.
Jason's demeanor wouldn't not have solved the problem of us not having scouting dept with the proper tools.

Shall I continue?

I just get the feeling that he's not going to become a good NFL QB - and that's on him in my book

Fine, of course you are entitled to your opinion. But we'll never know how good he could have been because of the reasons listed above. This isn't golf, or tennis though. He had to depend on MANY factors before he could even throw the ball. And everything leading up to that point was a failure more or less.

I would not compare Haynesworth and Campbell - Campbell is a ton more motivated to be an NFL player than Haynesworth ever was

But you just insinuated that he didn't work hard, which one is it? What it this "work ethic" measuring stick that you have and how does it work? lole]

[riggofan]

I understand why you might feel that way, but I simply don't understand how you'd ever truly know these things to be true. How you feel and what's factually accurate are two different things.

+1. And honestly, I think fans like SkinsJock have every right to be disappointed in Campbell. He definitely was never "the man" here ever. But we have no idea how hard he worked or whether he applied himself or not. Besides that if all a QB had to do was "apply himself", we'd have 32 Peyton Mannings in the league.

Anyway, my point was that I think JC has actually been "decent" in the NFL. There are a lot of QBs who have come and gone in the seven years Campbell has played and been flat out awful.

[Chris Luva Luva]

I think SJ is totally entitled to how he feels, regardless if I agree. I was disappointed too. But it's my opinion that NOBODY could have saved this franchise in the state that it was in. Not Peyton, not Brady, not anyone.

The pillars of this organization were built with Popsicle sticks. lol

[Deadskins]

I agree about Campbell not being in the right place or having a very good situation around him but I also feel that he just did not apply himself or try to make things better

He has the talent, he just does not seem to want to be the man

No, I really don't think he does. I think you have it backwards. He had the desire, just not the skill.

[SkinsJock]

All these guys have skill - Gibbs thought enough to give him the job ..

I don't doubt that he wanted to do better I just don't think he did enough to take his game to "the next level"

[yupchagee]

I think it's neither skill or work ethic that was lacking. I think he just lacks the temperment to be "the man" in the NFL.

[1niksder]

IMHO

Jason Had Vinny...

Just like Sage, Mark, Trent, Patrick, Hasselbeck.


Vinny made Todd Collins a household name in the DMV, and Chase Daniels RICH... He had Colt Brennan in the QB debate at one point.

Vinny knew his QBs... Vinny knew a good backup when he saw one, but he always saw them as starters, and never really put a team around any of them.

Vinny would have never looked at Bob or Capt. Kirk, let alone have both of them on the roster at the same time.

It would take Campbell 40 mins. to name all the OCs and QB coaches he's had since High School, yet he's still in the league. That says he has the drive and the skills to be a NFL QB. He's been a starter in both conferences, and has started everywhere he's been.

MS cut him loose before he even looked at him on the field... and Mike knows QB.

Jason was missing something, including a consistent scheme... Although it's true, I think the lack of a consistent scheme was mentioned so often when people discussed Jason it became his crutch.

[RayNAustin]

I agree about Campbell not being in the right place or having a very good situation around him but I also feel that he just did not apply himself or try to make things better

I understand why you might feel that way, but I simply don't understand how you'd ever truly know these things to be true. How you feel and what's factually accurate are two different things. What we know to be factually correct is that Jason like every other person in this organization failed to achieve greatness. And that failure has a root and that root WAS Dan Snyder. For that alone, I don't blame ANYONE on the rosters of the past for their shortcomings. They could NOT succeed under the past regimes, they could NOT. It was impossible. The moment Snyder relinquised control, things were totally different.

He has the talent, he just does not seem to want to be the man

He would have failed if he wanted to "the man". You don't like Jason's demeanor and neither did I. But...

Jason's demeanor would not have solved the following...

The acquistion of:
Archuletta
Brandon Lloyd
Haynesworth
Bruce Smith

Shall I continue?


Jason's demeanor wouldn't not have solved us being in cap hell.
Jason's demeanor wouldn't not have solved us pissing away draft picks.
Jason's demeanor wouldn't not have solved us not having depth.
Jason's demeanor wouldn't not have solved us running Joe Gibbs playbook one year with success and then scrapping it all to get Al Saunders 400+ page playbook.
Jason's demeanor wouldn't not have solved the problem of how Jim Zorn was promoted to HC?
Jason's demeanor wouldn't not have solved the problem of Snyder making Jim Zorn a figurehead and pulling strings in the background?
Jason's demeanor wouldn't not have solved the problem of us not having a practice bubble.
Jason's demeanor wouldn't not have solved the problem of us not having scouting dept with the proper tools.

Shall I continue?

I just get the feeling that he's not going to become a good NFL QB - and that's on him in my book

Fine, of course you are entitled to your opinion. But we'll never know how good he could have been because of the reasons listed above. This isn't golf, or tennis though. He had to depend on MANY factors before he could even throw the ball. And everything leading up to that point was a failure more or less.

I would not compare Haynesworth and Campbell - Campbell is a ton more motivated to be an NFL player than Haynesworth ever was

But you just insinuated that he didn't work hard, which one is it? What it this "work ethic" measuring stick that you have and how does it work? lole]

I really am at a loss as to how you could confuse so many issues with each other, or this NEVER ENDING mantra of how Jason had a bad situation. (smacks self in the head out of frustration)

Jason Campbell was drafted by Joe Gibbs ... not Snyder or Cerrato, and he was not thrust into action as a rookie, and had the luxury of not only time to learn, but a very experienced veteran and magnanimous mentor in Mark Brunell who without question tried to help Campbell in any way he could, unlike a lot of rookie QBs who are viewed as the enemy coming in to replace the veteran, and offered no help.

So he had a full off season, a training camp and a full season to observe and learn the NFL game. In 2006, when Saunders offense was brought in, Jason had another training camp and half a season to learn before he was eventually put in in the second half of the 2006 season. Then, gong into 2007, he had the 2006 offseason, training camp, half a season to study with no pressure, and then 7 games as the starter and another entire off season and training camp, yet he still struggled the entire 2007 season until he was injured. And if memory serves, I believe it was the 2007 season under Campbell when after 7 or 8 games, the Redskins were the only team in the NFL who hadn't thrown a TD to a wide receiver? When he was replaced by Collins .... a career backup who hadn't started a game in 10 years ... somehow he managed to move this offense extremely well, with the too short receivers, and terrible o-line, etc. (all of the excuses used to explain Campbell's lack of success).

I know I've said all of this before, but apparently it needs repeating. Campbell was a numskull , with a football IQ of an imbecile. Every year of his 5 years was another rookie season for him. This is the guy who "forgets" to step up in the pocket and instead rolls into the outside rushers. This is the guy who actually admitted that he doesn't see the receivers well working from under center, and preferred the shotgun. And for all of the supposed athletic ability, he looked rather clumsy, and almost a sitting duck for sacks, many of which occurred not because of an o-line failure, but because of Campbell's slow reads and holding the ball way too long. Fact is, he just never got it, and in my opinion, never came close to getting it. He set this franchise back 5 years, and was perhaps Gibbs biggest mistake on personnel, even though Joe made quite a few bad ones.

When Zorn was brought in, he was doomed from the start. His fortunes were tied to making Campbell a success, but old Zorny had no idea what a monumental task lay in front of him. By this time, the entire NFL had figured out the key to defeating the Redskins offense. Stack the box and take away the running game, and the Redskin offense was dead. Force the Redskins to throw, and play press coverage, and don't worry about being beat deep ... it will never happen with Campbell, who's happy feat will either dance himself into a sack, or his radar eye lock on his primary target will allow the defense to adjust and defense the play. It was like an endless rerun of a bad B movie that everyone knew what was going to happen .... the opponents knew ... the fans knew ... and the only ones that seem not to know was Jason and the Redskin front office, who seemed stubbornly insistent on making this 1st round draft pick a success come hell or high water.

That he was eventually dealt to the Raiders, and then washed out there was consistent with my predictions all along. After seeing him play in the early 2007 season, I knew then that this guy was not only not a starting QB, but not really a quality backup that I would want to rely on.

And I believe Campbell did lack the fire and motivation to better himself, because the mistakes he made in his first games as a starter were the same mistakes he was making in his 3rd and 4th seasons. He just never really understood the game very well ... never actually understood what defenses were doing, therefore was never going to be able to lead a team. He was a paint by numbers QB ... that relied on repetition rather than understanding strategy.

[Chris Luva Luva]

No need to reply to the post above. This man said it best.

IMHO

Jason Had Vinny...

Just like Sage, Mark, Trent, Patrick, Hasselbeck.


Vinny made Todd Collins a household name in the DMV, and Chase Daniels RICH... He had Colt Brennan in the QB debate at one point.

Vinny knew his QBs... Vinny knew a good backup when he saw one, but he always saw them as starters, and never really put a team around any of them.

Vinny would have never looked at Bob or Capt. Kirk, let alone have both of them on the roster at the same time.

It would take Campbell 40 mins. to name all the OCs and QB coaches he's had since High School, yet he's still in the league. That says he has the drive and the skills to be a NFL QB. He's been a starter in both conferences, and has started everywhere he's been.

MS cut him loose before he even looked at him on the field... and Mike knows QB.

Jason was missing something, including a consistent scheme... Although it's true, I think the lack of a consistent scheme was mentioned so often when people discussed Jason it became his crutch.

[skinsfan#33]

No need to reply to the post above. This man said it best.

IMHO

Jason Had Vinny...

Just like Sage, Mark, Trent, Patrick, Hasselbeck.


Vinny made Todd Collins a household name in the DMV, and Chase Daniels RICH... He had Colt Brennan in the QB debate at one point.

Vinny knew his QBs... Vinny knew a good backup when he saw one, but he always saw them as starters, and never really put a team around any of them.

Vinny would have never looked at Bob or Capt. Kirk, let alone have both of them on the roster at the same time.

It would take Campbell 40 mins. to name all the OCs and QB coaches he's had since High School, yet he's still in the league. That says he has the drive and the skills to be a NFL QB. He's been a starter in both conferences, and has started everywhere he's been.

MS cut him loose before he even looked at him on the field... and Mike knows QB.

Jason was missing something, including a consistent scheme... Although it's true, I think the lack of a consistent scheme was mentioned so often when people discussed Jason it became his crutch.

Except Except for the fact that Vinny didn't pick JC, Gibbs did!

I get tired of hearing about how JC had a different OC every year because of simply want true. He had two systems the four years he was a starter on DC. He started two seasons under Gibbs/Saunders' system and two years with Zorn's. Yes, he had to learn Gibbs' system when he was our third string QB his first year, but we have no real proof he ever actually learned it. The next year Saunders was brought in and his system (a version of the same system Gibbs ran, just more pass happy) and they meshed his system with Gibbs'.

What I remember vividly about Campbell is that he was.SLOW to decide on anything, he couldn't even decide when to slide out go out of bounds, consequently he would do nothing and just get jacked up by defenders.

[Deadskins]

No need to reply to the post above. This man said it best.

IMHO

Jason Had Vinny...

Just like Sage, Mark, Trent, Patrick, Hasselbeck.


Vinny made Todd Collins a household name in the DMV, and Chase Daniels RICH... He had Colt Brennan in the QB debate at one point.

Vinny knew his QBs... Vinny knew a good backup when he saw one, but he always saw them as starters, and never really put a team around any of them.

Vinny would have never looked at Bob or Capt. Kirk, let alone have both of them on the roster at the same time.

It would take Campbell 40 mins. to name all the OCs and QB coaches he's had since High School, yet he's still in the league. That says he has the drive and the skills to be a NFL QB. He's been a starter in both conferences, and has started everywhere he's been.

MS cut him loose before he even looked at him on the field... and Mike knows QB.

Jason was missing something, including a consistent scheme... Although it's true, I think the lack of a consistent scheme was mentioned so often when people discussed Jason it became his crutch.

Except Except for the fact that Vinny didn't pick JC, Gibbs did!

I get tired of hearing about how JC had a different OC every year because of simply want true. He had two systems the four years he was a starter on DC. He started two seasons under Gibbs/Saunders' system and two years with Zorn's. Yes, he had to learn Gibbs' system when he was our third string QB his first year, but we have no real proof he ever actually learned it. The next year Saunders was brought in and his system (a version of the same system Gibbs ran, just more pass happy) and they meshed his system with Gibbs'.

What I remember vividly about Campbell is that he was.SLOW to decide on anything, he couldn't even decide when to slide out go out of bounds, consequently he would do nothing and just get jacked up by defenders.

And he was very inaccurate on the long ball.

[Chris Luva Luva]

The problem is... Nobody is really disagreeing with your points.

What I remember vividly about Campbell is that he was.SLOW to decide on anything, he couldn't even decide when to slide out go out of bounds, consequently he would do nothing and just get jacked up by defenders.

And he was very inaccurate on the long ball.

This is what we disagreed with. In particular, the bolded portion.

Jason Campbell is just NOT what any franchise would be really pleased to have as their starting QB - never was & never will be

that's just the way it is in the NFL when you don't REALLY want to work hard enough

[riggofan]

The problem is... Nobody is really disagreeing with your points.

hah. Why let that get in the way of a good argument?

[Deadskins]

I said he lacked the skill, not the motivation, CLL.