This writer thinks Shanahan can be compared to Zorn

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Sat Jul 20, 2013 3:39 pm

I wonder how many would give credence to an article claiming that Zorn and Shanahan can be compared as having similar records ...

wins and losses are one thing - Zorn NEVER looked like he could turn this franchise around let alone be able to be an effective NFL Head Coach

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/07/ ... after-all/

oj · Post by oj » Sat Jul 20, 2013 5:42 pm

Well, he is entitled to an opinion. Considering that a requirement of a sports writer is that he needs to be correct, relavent and insightful to keep his clientel interested so that they will continue to read his articles I'd say he missed the mark on all three.

paulvs · Post by **paulvs** » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:17 pm

Even ESPN listed Shanahan as the 19th greatest coach EVER. I wonder where Zorn is on that list. Did you see the writers picture? I think that is cousin Eddie.

I abolutly knew this would happen and said it several times before last season. Shanahan got rung up and down for "giving away" all our draft picks and now when sucess arrives it is all credited to Griffin. I didn't see Zorn putting together a blockbuster trade. If someone like Griffin had been around 4 years ago would Zorn have tinkered the offense the right way to use him?

yupchagee · Post by **yupchagee** » Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:08 am

He is Washington’s representative on the Pro Football Hall of Fame selection committee

Maybe this explains why such deserving players as Fischer & Jacoby aren't in the Hall.

skinsfan#33 · Post by **skinsfan#33** » Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:52 am

Their records were very close for the first two seasons, but that is leaving out one VERY important part.

When Zorn was hired he took over a team that was a playoff team and that is reflected in the fact that the team went 6-2.

Half of his wins came in his first eight games and then he had a chance to turn the Skins into the laughing stock of the NFL. Yes he had a lot of help in that endeavor. Vinny was as much if not more responsible for the downward spiral!

Shanny took a 4-12 team that was the laughing stock of the NFL and four off seasons in he hasn't had a normal off season yet. His first was the year before the lockout and no first tern free agents were available. The next was the lock out, then the first of the two $18M cap hits, and then this last off season, the last of the cap penalty (hopefully). That is a lot of challenges and we are coming off of a play off appearance and a division title. In three seasons he was able to equal the number of playoff trips that the other five coaches (not named Joe Gibbs) made in 13 seasons. The only other guy to make it was Norv and he took six season to get there.

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:57 pm

This guy's entire argument can be summed up and dismissed in one line from the article:

Consider the bottom line which is all that ultimately matters in the NFL.

Zorn took a borderline playoff team and turned it into a 4-12 nightmare. (Not really his fault, as Snyder and Cerrato were the real authors, but since we're doing HC comparisons.)

Shanahan took a nightmare and had them competing for the playoffs within three seasons: 10-6.

You can try to say it was all RG3 or filter W-L numbers so that the coaches almost look the same if you squint real hard and forget about factors X, Y, and Z for just a second. But if the author wants to sound as objective as the line that began his argument, that won't cut it.

With Zorn, we were losers. With Shanahan, we are winners. The W-L backs it up. Add context from whatever source you want, and it only makes Shanahan look better. The author should have stuck with a raw W-L comparison; that's the closest he'll ever get to making this absurd argument look passable.

riggofan · Post by **riggofan** » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:10 am

Irn-Bru wrote:This guy's entire argument can be summed up and dismissed in one line from the article:

Consider the bottom line which is all that ultimately matters in the NFL.

Zorn took a borderline playoff team and turned it into a 4-12 nightmare. (Not really his fault, as Snyder and Cerrato were the real authors, but since we're doing HC comparisons.)

Shanahan took a nightmare and had them competing for the playoffs within three seasons: 10-6.

lol. Well done, man. That pretty well sums up the rebuttal to this article.

What a lame, superficial comparison. Anybody who follows the team knows that these coaches couldn't be more different. More importantly we all know that the teams these coaches have assembled could not be more different.

Deadskins · Post by **Deadskins** » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:45 am

In his defense, Zorn didn't really assemble anything. We had Vinny for that. Shanahan has done a remarkable job rebuilding this franchise in only three years.

paulvs · Post by **paulvs** » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:58 am

If anyone is on the fence about this you just have to remember one thing:

The MNF fake punt (attempts) vs the Giants.

burgngold4life · Post by **burgngold4life** » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:11 pm

That fake punt was the worst thing I've ever seen in football.. after his first attempt was a fail, Giants D adjusted... & HE STILL DID IT AGAIN ANYWAYS!

That was so bad. Smgdh.

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:07 pm

Deadskins wrote:In his defense, Zorn didn't really assemble anything. We had Vinny for that. Shanahan has done a remarkable job rebuilding this franchise in only three years.

Agreed. I liked Zorn, and kind of felt bad for him as he was on his way out. He had some good qualities, but that group of guys (coaches and players) was never going to be true team.

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:25 pm

The writer deserves to have his fingers broken for even insinuating that they are similar.

riggofan · Post by **riggofan** » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:11 pm

The scary part is that the author's bio says he has published a BOOK about the Redskins. Must be insightful.

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:19 pm

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/07/22/redskins-park-gets-bigger-weight-room-training-room-and-full-time-chef/

This is why you can't compare the two. It's these changes that made me believe in Mike. He's been doing this since he got here. It's the reason why I felt that he's been a success story before the win column reflected it.

You gotta win Monday-Sunday.

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:45 pm

riggofan wrote:The scary part is that the author's bio says he has published a BOOK about the Redskins. Must be insightful.

I VERY much doubt that - this guy obviously does NOT know what is really happening with regards to the Redskins staff and players :roll:

HEROHAMO · Post by **HEROHAMO** » Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:51 am

yupchagee wrote:
He is Washington’s representative on the Pro Football Hall of Fame selection committee

Maybe this explains why such deserving players as Fischer & Jacoby aren't in the Hall.

Exactly I always wondered why we have sportswriters instead of actual football players voting players into the Hall.

riggofan · Post by **riggofan** » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:15 am

SkinsJock wrote:
riggofan wrote:The scary part is that the author's bio says he has published a BOOK about the Redskins. Must be insightful.

I VERY much doubt that - this guy obviously does NOT know what is really happening with regards to the Redskins staff and players

lol. Well he did publish a book about the Redskins, but I yes I was being completely sarcastic about it being insightful.

RayNAustin · Post by **RayNAustin** » Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:43 pm

skinsfan#33 wrote:Their records were very close for the first two seasons, but that is leaving out one VERY important part.

When Zorn was hired he took over a team that was a playoff team and that is reflected in the fact that the team went 6-2.

Half of his wins came in his first eight games and then he had a chance to turn the Skins into the laughing stock of the NFL. Yes he had a lot of help in that endeavor. Vinny was as much if not more responsible for the downward spiral!

Shanny took a 4-12 team that was the laughing stock of the NFL and four off seasons in he hasn't had a normal off season yet. His first was the year before the lockout and no first tern free agents were available. The next was the lock out, then the first of the two $18M cap hits, and then this last off season, the last of the cap penalty (hopefully). That is a lot of challenges and we are coming off of a play off appearance and a division title. In three seasons he was able to equal the number of playoff trips that the other five coaches (not named Joe Gibbs) made in 13 seasons. The only other guy to make it was Norv and he took six season to get there.

I would have to point out that this is selective memory, and not taking into account all of the pertinent facts.

First of all, this "Playoff team" for which Zorn inherited barely made it as a wild card in 2007, at a 9-7 record, and that only happened because Jason Campbell got injured. If you will recall, the Redskins were 5-7 coming into the Bears game, working on a 4 game losing streak in which Campbell, who for the first half continued to flounder and unable to move the ball on offense, mirroring the majority of his and the Redskins season up to that point, was injured just prior to half time. Miraculously, Todd Collins came in and immediately moved the ball and put two TDs on the board in little over 4 minutes, and won that game, as well as the next three. Collins finished these last 4 games with remarkable results, playing like a Pro Bowl QB, much to everyone's utter amazement. Had Campbell not been injured, the Redskins would probably not even reached 500. Of course this was following a putrid 5-11 in 2006, in which even the defense collapsed and could not carry the team. So the reality is, the team inherited by Zorn was a collective 14-18 over the 2006-2007 seasons, and had Campbell not been injured, that record would surely have been worse, and no chance for a 4 game win streak to eek into the playoffs in 2007.

When Zorn took over (and I say "took over" in a very loose sense of the meaning) what he was actually taking over was a losing proposition .. a project doomed from the conception ... he was brought in to make Jason Campbell successful, because the Redskin FO was still not willing to face the glaring reality that Campbell was a complete, unworkable bust ... much like many fans on this board continued to the bitter end, in spite of Campbell amateurishly failing to master the basic fundamentals of the QB position, and continuing to make the same mistakes, game in and game out, with each new year supposing to be his magical "breakout season" that never materialized. In spite of that, Zorn did go 6-2 starting the 08 season and the Zorn pick looked to be a genius maneuver, until Portis (who was leading the league in rushing and tearing it up each week) and the O-line got hammered with injuries. Without Portis carrying the offense, much like he did in 2005, and with the ball and the fortunes of the Redskins (and ultimately Zorn) placed in Jason Campbell's hands, the inevitable occurred. They went on a downward slide, unable to put any sort of professional offensive production up. This extended to the 2009 season as well, and to be quite honest, Zorn was doomed from day one. His fortunes were tied directly to Jason Campbell, and being a Rookie Coach, there was no way he could have been expected to survive that type of albatross around his neck.

What was THE FIRST THING Shanahan did as the big cheese in charge? He got rid of Jason Campbell ... and yet, even with McNabb ... who by any measure is and was leaps and bounds superior to Campbell, Shanahan didn't fare any better than Zorn in his first 16 games, even with a superior QB that Mike selected himself.

The next big 2 questions are:

1) what might Zorn have accomplished with RG3, had he not been saddled with a very poor performer such as Jason Campbell ?

and

2) what would Shanahan have accomplished last season, had the Browns acted more aggressively and attained the rights to RG3, leaving the Redskins to go into the season with Rex Grossman as the QB ? Of worse yet ... maybe without RG3 the Redskins might have opted for a trade to get another one of the Kevin Kolbs or Matt Flynn's ?

Truthfully, Zorn and Shanahan cannot be honestly compared .... with Shanahan having decades of experience and a solid reputation and free reign over the roster, while Zorn was selected to implement whatever Danny/Vinny had in mind, while having no control whatsoever over anything himself.

Deadskins · Post by **Deadskins** » Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:30 pm

Great points Ray. You are absolutely correct on almost everything, except maybe McNabb being leaps and bounds better than Campbell at that point of his career.

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:43 pm

Deadskins wrote:Great points Ray. You are absolutely correct on almost everything, except maybe McNabb being leaps and bounds better than Campbell at that point of his career.

+1

DarthMonk · Post by **DarthMonk** » Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:11 pm

Lotta truth from Ray. OTOH I doubted Zorn even having a true play book the day he was hired. I also recall his "system" having no audibles and his calls not having protections. JC had to decide on them at the line leading to many delay of game flags and the like. It was amateur hour.

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:00 pm

RayNAustin wrote: ... Truthfully, Zorn and Shanahan cannot be honestly compared .... with Shanahan having decades of experience and a solid reputation and free reign over the roster, while Zorn was selected to implement whatever Danny/Vinny had in mind, while having no control whatsoever over anything.

you're exactly right and I also agree about Campbell - he just did not have what it takes to be a decent, let alone good, QB

skinsfan#33 · Post by **skinsfan#33** » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:52 pm

RayNAustin wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:Their records were very close for the first two seasons, but that is leaving out one VERY important part.

When Zorn was hired he took over a team that was a playoff team and that is reflected in the fact that the team went 6-2.

Half of his wins came in his first eight games and then he had a chance to turn the Skins into the laughing stock of the NFL. Yes he had a lot of help in that endeavor. Vinny was as much if not more responsible for the downward spiral!

Shanny took a 4-12 team that was the laughing stock of the NFL and four off seasons in he hasn't had a normal off season yet. His first was the year before the lockout and no first tern free agents were available. The next was the lock out, then the first of the two $18M cap hits, and then this last off season, the last of the cap penalty (hopefully). That is a lot of challenges and we are coming off of a play off appearance and a division title. In three seasons he was able to equal the number of playoff trips that the other five coaches (not named Joe Gibbs) made in 13 seasons. The only other guy to make it was Norv and he took six season to get there.

I would have to point out that this is selective memory, and not taking into account all of the pertinent facts.

First of all, this "Playoff team" for which Zorn inherited barely made it as a wild card in 2007, at a 9-7 record, and that only happened because Jason Campbell got injured. If you will recall, the Redskins were 5-7 coming into the Bears game, working on a 4 game losing streak in which Campbell, who for the first half continued to flounder and unable to move the ball on offense, mirroring the majority of his and the Redskins season up to that point, was injured just prior to half time. Miraculously, Todd Collins came in and immediately moved the ball and put two TDs on the board in little over 4 minutes, and won that game, as well as the next three. Collins finished these last 4 games with remarkable results, playing like a Pro Bowl QB, much to everyone's utter amazement. Had Campbell not been injured, the Redskins would probably not even reached 500. Of course this was following a putrid 5-11 in 2006, in which even the defense collapsed and could not carry the team. So the reality is, the team inherited by Zorn was a collective 14-18 over the 2006-2007 seasons, and had Campbell not been injured, that record would surely have been worse, and no chance for a 4 game win streak to eek into the playoffs in 2007.

When Zorn took over (and I say "took over" in a very loose sense of the meaning) what he was actually taking over was a losing proposition .. a project doomed from the conception ... he was brought in to make Jason Campbell successful, because the Redskin FO was still not willing to face the glaring reality that Campbell was a complete, unworkable bust ... much like many fans on this board continued to the bitter end, in spite of Campbell amateurishly failing to master the basic fundamentals of the QB position, and continuing to make the same mistakes, game in and game out, with each new year supposing to be his magical "breakout season" that never materialized. In spite of that, Zorn did go 6-2 starting the 08 season and the Zorn pick looked to be a genius maneuver, until Portis (who was leading the league in rushing and tearing it up each week) and the O-line got hammered with injuries. Without Portis carrying the offense, much like he did in 2005, and with the ball and the fortunes of the Redskins (and ultimately Zorn) placed in Jason Campbell's hands, the inevitable occurred. They went on a downward slide, unable to put any sort of professional offensive production up. This extended to the 2009 season as well, and to be quite honest, Zorn was doomed from day one. His fortunes were tied directly to Jason Campbell, and being a Rookie Coach, there was no way he could have been expected to survive that type of albatross around his neck.

What was THE FIRST THING Shanahan did as the big cheese in charge? He got rid of Jason Campbell ... and yet, even with McNabb ... who by any measure is and was leaps and bounds superior to Campbell, Shanahan didn't fare any better than Zorn in his first 16 games, even with a superior QB that Mike selected himself.

The next big 2 questions are:

1) what might Zorn have accomplished with RG3, had he not been saddled with a very poor performer such as Jason Campbell ?

and

2) what would Shanahan have accomplished last season, had the Browns acted more aggressively and attained the rights to RG3, leaving the Redskins to go into the season with Rex Grossman as the QB ? Of worse yet ... maybe without RG3 the Redskins might have opted for a trade to get another one of the Kevin Kolbs or Matt Flynn's ?

Truthfully, Zorn and Shanahan cannot be honestly compared .... with Shanahan having decades of experience and a solid reputation and free reign over the roster, while Zorn was selected to implement whatever Danny/Vinny had in mind, while having no control whatsoever over anything himself.

So I have selective memory...
Well I guess you have revisionist memory...

Did the 2007 team make the playoffs? Yes! Was Todd Collins still an option for Zorn? Sure. So the plain simple fact is Zorn got a playoff team and MS got a 4-12 team.

Anyone that says that the team, while old, that Zorn inhertided wasn't infinately more talented than the one MS got form Zorn is in the need of a drug test.

Was Jason Campble one of the worst things Joe Gibbs ever did? Behind giving up a all of the draft picks he did for TJ "the tip toe burgler" Ducket? Sure.

What could have Zorn done with RGIII? Who knows but I bet he would have ruined him and he certainly wouldn't have been ROY.

The Browns are the Browns so there is really no point in going down the what if of them not screwing up. But I'll play your silly game, MS probably would have taken Tannehill in the first, or Kirk or Wilson in the third.

NO YOU CAN'T COMPARE ZORN AND MS!!! Any comparrison is silly and borderline retarded.

Deadskins · Post by **Deadskins** » Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:52 pm

skinsfan#33 wrote:Was Todd Collins still an option for Zorn? Sure.

Um, no. Like Ray said, Campbell was the ownership's choice for starter, and Zorn was brought in to turn him into a player. Not to mention that Collins experience was in Al Saunder's system, a fact that helped him immensely in his tenure at starter (though I suspect he still would have outplayed JC in Zorn's system too). There was very little difference in the players Zorn and Shanahan inherited, anyway. The difference is that Mike had the authority to make changes, and Jim didn't.

paulvs · Post by **paulvs** » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:11 pm

Dem writers?....some dem not so smart....look what one genius had to say after last years first pre-season game:

http://www.footballnation.com/content/w ... iii/15860/