tribeofjudah's Bible study

[Deadskins]

Do any of you think we are in the end of times? And why?

That depnds. What do you mean by end times? The second coming?

It is near, my Friends..........even at the door.

Signs of the time are Everywhere...

Maybe, but that is not the end of times. That event will just usher in an age of peace. But, at least Cappster will have had his overt sign of God's existence.

[Cappster]

Can you read? I never said the Old Testament didn't count. I said The Old Testament was written hundreds of years before the New, from stories passed down over thousands of years by oral history, and as such needs to be read with that in mind. You can't take those passages literally the way you are, to try and force some deep-seated anger you harbor, onto God. You brougth up stoning people as a punishment for sinning, but Jesus said, "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."

I also agreed (not disagreed) with you about sermons being based on Bible passages (usually the day's Gospel passage), so I have no idea what point you think you're making there.

As for the BCP, the rites contained within are not biblical, but constructed by the early church councils, such as the Council of Nicea, from with came the Nicean Creed. This was where the doctrine of the Holy Trinity was established, so that worshipping Jesus did not fly in the face of the first two commandments.

Come back to me when you have something new to offer..

The way you are describing the old testament is basically of that of being dismissive. Jesus has a different point of view.

Matthew 5:17-18

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

And you are pretty much showing that the BCP is more man made doctrine that is made up to try not to conflict with teachings of the old laws. You are a christian apologist who keeps making up excuses for why the church, bible, and over all the religion of chrisitanity is so effed up.

[Cappster]

If a religious person does wrong, they put it on their god to deal with the issue.

Say what?

Think about this: Would you rather live in a society without religion or a society without science?

Why can't we have both?

By the way, religion is not responsible for the dark ages or the repression of scienctific discovery, or any of the other attrocities done over the years in the name of God. We've been over this before. If people followed the Ten Commandments to the letter, then those attrocities would have never occured. Just because someone calls themselves a Christian, doesn't make them one. It's actions that count.

Have you never heard of someone saying that they will "put it to god to deal with?" After all, god is supposedly looking out for all of his believers and he can either bless you or taketh away.

Religion impedes the progress of science and to say that it does not shows the naivety that you have for the situation. And to say that religion had nothing to with the dark ages is, wow, when a person denies reality then there isn't much hope for them to understand said reality. I guess things like slavery, manifest destiny, and people flying airplanes into buildings had nothing to do with religion

Ten Commandments? Isn't that from the old testament (exodus) of which is not supposed to be taken literally? Hmm, it's pretty hard to defend contradictions with contradictions unless you are just trying to confuse a somebody. And I don't se the Tn Commandments speaking out about slavery, war, crimes against children, etc...

[Cappster]

The main thing I want people to do is question why they believe they way they do.

Check out a mirror some day. I don't think you know what you believe. I tried to help you answer some of these questions you have a couple of pages ago with the whole "spirit energies" discussion, but you got upset when you couldn't reconcile your beliefs with the front you are trying to put up.

Why do you think I am an Atheist? Could it be perhaps that I used to be on the other team trying to defend the abhorrent texts found within the bible? It was a slow evolutionary process, but I was able to free myself of the illogical thinking that is associated with religion. I could no longer deny logical reasoning in lieu of contradictory teachings I was taught growing up. As far as spirits/ghosts are concerned, I think it is plausible based on my experiences. Do I claim it as truth? No, I do not. Does that mean there is evidence of a god existing? No, not in the slightest.

If there is "evidence" for god, it should not contradict itself. I can look at the theory of evolution and see every piece of the puzzle fit together. I can look at religion find that the puzzle doesn't fit and is illogical at best.

This is a pretty funny cartoon about biblical contradictions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB3g6mXLEKk

[Cappster]

Do any of you think we are in the end of times? And why?

That depnds. What do you mean by end times? The second coming?

It is near, my Friends..........even at the door.

Signs of the time are Everywhere...

Maybe, but that is not the end of times. That event will just usher in an age of peace. But, at least Cappster will have had his overt sign of God's existence.

The "end times" have always been close. It just depends on the kook who is making the claim.

[Countertrey]

Do any of you think we are in the end of times? And why?

That depnds. What do you mean by end times? The second coming?

It is near, my Friends..........even at the door.

Signs of the time are Everywhere...

Maybe, but that is not the end of times. That event will just usher in an age of peace. But, at least Cappster will have had his overt sign of God's existence.

The "end times" have always been close. It just depends on the kook who is making the claim.

... and, of course, the law of averages says, some day, one of those kooks will be right.

[1niksder]

Do any of you think we are in the end of times? And why?

That depnds. What do you mean by end times? The second coming?

It is near, my Friends..........even at the door.

Signs of the time are Everywhere...

Maybe, but that is not the end of times. That event will just usher in an age of peace. But, at least Cappster will have had his overt sign of God's existence.

The "end times" have always been close. It just depends on the kook who is making the claim.

... and, of course, the law of averages says, some day, one of those kooks will be right.

In the end...

[HTTRRG3ALMO]

The main thing I want people to do is question why they believe they way they do.

Check out a mirror some day. I don't think you know what you believe. I tried to help you answer some of these questions you have a couple of pages ago with the whole "spirit energies" discussion, but you got upset when you couldn't reconcile your beliefs with the front you are trying to put up.

Why do you think I am an Atheist? Could it be perhaps that I used to be on the other team trying to defend the abhorrent texts found within the bible? It was a slow evolutionary process, but I was able to free myself of the illogical thinking that is associated with religion. I could no longer deny logical reasoning in lieu of contradictory teachings I was taught growing up. As far as spirits/ghosts are concerned, I think it is plausible based on my experiences. Do I claim it as truth? No, I do not. Does that mean there is evidence of a god existing? No, not in the slightest.

If there is "evidence" for god, it should not contradict itself. I can look at the theory of evolution and see every piece of the puzzle fit together. I can look at religion find that the puzzle doesn't fit and is illogical at best.

This is a pretty funny cartoon about biblical contradictions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB3g6mXLEKk

Hey Cappster sorry I haven't been on this thread in a couple weeks...this one is harder to keep up with than other threads.

Secondly, I apologize for how obnoxiously long this is. Please be patient with me.

What's really going on here? Why the demand (so to speak) for an explanation or for Christians (or perhaps just theists) to recant their believe in God?

Sorry if I'm misinterpreting your posts (always hard to get "tone" out of text), but you seem to have a lot of anger and hostility towards the issue. No one has been served a subpoena to defend their belief system (talking about both sides of the discussion).

Both sides have asked each other, essentially, for the reason of our "faith". Everyone, including you, answered with absolute honesty.

When a clearly worded reason isn't enough, there's usually something else going on under the surface.

Let me use myself as a terrible example here...

When I see the articles/posts about "Redskins Name Change" I get really defensive. I feel defensive because, to me, its threatening something I care about (it is "offensive" in a way that makes me feel I need to protect myself).

This is painful to write, but the reason I feel this "tension" inside is because part of me believes there's some truth to their argument. I need to apologize here...I can only handle using the word "some" for now; this is something that is "threatening" a team I have loved since childhood...

Sure, there's documented history of the name "Redskins" describing war paint, but I feel threatened because I also know its a racial slur (though I wish it were never used in such manner).

So naturally, my desire is to hold onto that which "protects" me from loosing something.

Back to the original topic...

You do not believe in the things that have changed my life; things I hold near and dear to my heart. I respect your right to do so, and you don't owe me an explanation (though I'm grateful you gave me one).

Whenever I hear someone making a case against God, I don't feel defensive or threatened, there's no reason for me to.

Christ changed things in my heart that I struggled with for years. Am I perfect? Hell no man, LOL, but...I have peace, and am willing to keep getting back up when I fall. Why? Because I'm in love man; I love Jesus Christ.

Having the belief system of a Christian is like being rescued from a burning house. You turn around, seeing what you were just saved from, and there's an overwhelming sense of gratitude and peace. You're not the same person anymore, and the change happened that quickly.

However, you soon realize there are people still inside of that house. You remember what it was like to be in there, so you desperately want to "save" them.

You feel compassionate, but sometimes you can get too pushy; after all, the other person has to: 1. realize the house is on fire, and 2. want to get out.

Just ask a lifeguard what its like to rescue someone who doesn't want to be rescued...you're both going down (sorry for the change of imagery).

Its really painful man, when you see someone saying "there is no burning house." You can't force them to see what you see, but you do your best to explain it, and there comes a point to where you realize this person isn't going to change their mind. So you just stand there, practically hopeless, waiting for them to signal for help.

In other words, you have to respect their right to stay there. Worst feeling in the world man.

I don't believe the same can be said for an unbeliever. With the exception of extremists, what harm is there with theists besides an occasional "argument"? Why not just respect their right to believe as they wish, unless there's something going on within your heart that's keeping you from letting it go; just as there's something in my heart keeping me from letting go of my defensiveness against the Redskins name change issue.

This may seem hypocritical; it doesn't make sense for an atheist to argue with a theist - not visa versa, but remember what I said about the burning building. From the world's prospective, there's no danger in being a theist; society and science is progressing just fine.

In other words, people "debate" to sway an audience (or the "opposing" debater) to change their opinion. After all, if that weren't the case why keep talking after both sides understand each other? I already explained why its difficult and painful for Christians to "walk away".

I have no idea where you stand in that matter, and I wouldn't dare assume I understand the depths of your heart.

Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful you come here to share your mind and I hope you continue to do so.

You can easily say I'm narrow-minded for thinking I "know" the way. I'll accept that label because I do believe that; for if I had a single doubt in my mind, I wouldn't truly "believe" in my faith, would I? And if I truly believe in Jesus Christ and he's truly given me peace, how couldn't I wish that for you?

[DarthMonk]

^^^

This all makes sense ... and an atheist/scientist can feel the same way "in reverse" without any hostility. They can feel saved from the burning building of "mysticism" by science and then want to see others "saved" in the same way.

[HTTRRG3ALMO]

^^^

This all makes sense ... and an atheist/scientist can feel the same way "in reverse" without any hostility. They can feel saved from the burning building of "mysticism" by science and then want to see others "saved" in the same way.

Hey Darth - I'll stand corrected on that. I was a bit blind to that fact but this makes sense to me as well.

Thanks for pointing it out to me.

[Deadskins]

Can you read? I never said the Old Testament didn't count. I said The Old Testament was written hundreds of years before the New, from stories passed down over thousands of years by oral history, and as such needs to be read with that in mind. You can't take those passages literally the way you are, to try and force some deep-seated anger you harbor, onto God. You brougth up stoning people as a punishment for sinning, but Jesus said, "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."

I also agreed (not disagreed) with you about sermons being based on Bible passages (usually the day's Gospel passage), so I have no idea what point you think you're making there.

As for the BCP, the rites contained within are not biblical, but constructed by the early church councils, such as the Council of Nicea, from with came the Nicean Creed. This was where the doctrine of the Holy Trinity was established, so that worshipping Jesus did not fly in the face of the first two commandments.

Come back to me when you have something new to offer..

The way you are describing the old testament is basically of that of being dismissive.

See, this is where you are missing my point, altogether. I'm not dismissive of the Old Testament at all. I'm just saying you have to read it with context.

Jesus has a different point of view.

Matthew 5:17-18

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Again, Jesus is saying the exact same thing I'm telling you. The Law remains the same. He came to fulfill the Law (and to explain it to those who misunderstand). The Commandments state that all the Law and the prophets hang on the single truth that God is.

And you are pretty much showing that the BCP is more man made doctrine that is made up to try not to conflict with teachings of the old laws. You are a christian apologist who keeps making up excuses for why the church, bible, and over all the religion of chrisitanity is so effed up.

I've been saying all along that the BCP is man made doctrine. Why are you still trying to argue that? Where you are wrong is that I never said it was made up to try and not conflict with the old laws. I was simply explaining it's origins. Early on, the Church needed to reconcile the fact that they were worshipping Jesus, and the way they did that was come to the conclusion that God was made up of three parts (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). They also made up the the rite of Communion, to fulfill Jesus's request at the Last Supper, that when people ate and drank, that they give thanks to God, in rememberance of Him.

Where have I ever apologized for Christianity, or made any excuses? If anything, I've condemned those that would use Christianity, (or Judaism, in the case of the Old Testament) as an excuse to do those despicable acts you keep throwing out as examples. You need to understand the difference between Religion and people who follow religions. Just because someone claims to be following a certain religion, doesn't make it so. There have been many horrible crimes committed over the centuries in the name of Christianity. That doesn't mean those crimes were Christian acts. Can you see the difference?

[Deadskins]

If there is "evidence" for god, it should not contradict itself. I can look at the theory of evolution and see every piece of the puzzle fit together. I can look at religion find that the puzzle doesn't fit and is illogical at best.

First, let me say that I don't see the mutual exclusivity you do between science and religion. I consider myself to be a man of science and a man of faith. Second, there are plenty of contradictions in science. If you didn't know that, then you really don't know anything about science at all. That's why scientists propose theories. As they make observations of contradictions, they propose a theory to best explain these observations. Just as in science, religion is not set set in stone, as you (and many others) seem to believe. It is a journey of discovery. Not everything is black and white.

[langleyparkjoe]

blah blah blah..
here's my issue.

lil girl gets beaten, raped, murdered.. dies.
lil wayne gets hammered off multiple heavy drugs, goes to hospital.. lives.

God has the last word, we are not to question it.
Growing up i'm told to question everything.

I understand what everyone is saying but forget about all that for a moment. Just use the example I gave above about the girl and lil wayne.. now tell me about God as if I never read a bible in my life. Please. Anyone. And remember, use the examples I gave please.

Cappo.. you too are more than welcomed to answer bro, all opinions are valid, no one is WRONG because how the flip would we know?

[Deadskins]

If you want me to explain why one dies and one lives, I can't. I don't claim to understand, any more than I claim to understand how light can act as both a particle and a wave. I do believe that God has a plan, though I don't necessarily believe that He controls every aspect of the world down to the smallest detail. Sorry if that answer is unsatisfactory, but it is what it is.

[DarthMonk]

I feel the same way about your post. It's easy for me to sound extremely pompous on a message board.

Thanks.

^^^

This all makes sense ... and an atheist/scientist can feel the same way "in reverse" without any hostility. They can feel saved from the burning building of "mysticism" by science and then want to see others "saved" in the same way.

Hey Darth - I'll stand corrected on that. I was a bit blind to that fact but this makes sense to me as well.

Thanks for pointing it out to me.

[Mississippiskinsfan2]

blah blah blah..
here's my issue.

lil girl gets beaten, raped, murdered.. dies.
lil wayne gets hammered off multiple heavy drugs, goes to hospital.. lives.

God has the last word, we are not to question it.
Growing up i'm told to question everything.

I understand what everyone is saying but forget about all that for a moment. Just use the example I gave above about the girl and lil wayne.. now tell me about God as if I never read a bible in my life. Please. Anyone. And remember, use the examples I gave please.

Cappo.. you too are more than welcomed to answer bro, all opinions are valid, no one is WRONG because how the flip would we know?

God didnt kill the girl a man did. God didnt save lil wayne from death a man did ( or woman) God blessed us all with reason and this is what we choose not him.

[Cappster]

Can you read? I never said the Old Testament didn't count. I said The Old Testament was written hundreds of years before the New, from stories passed down over thousands of years by oral history, and as such needs to be read with that in mind. You can't take those passages literally the way you are, to try and force some deep-seated anger you harbor, onto God. You brougth up stoning people as a punishment for sinning, but Jesus said, "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."

I also agreed (not disagreed) with you about sermons being based on Bible passages (usually the day's Gospel passage), so I have no idea what point you think you're making there.

As for the BCP, the rites contained within are not biblical, but constructed by the early church councils, such as the Council of Nicea, from with came the Nicean Creed. This was where the doctrine of the Holy Trinity was established, so that worshipping Jesus did not fly in the face of the first two commandments.

Come back to me when you have something new to offer..

The way you are describing the old testament is basically of that of being dismissive.

See, this is where you are missing my point, altogether. I'm not dismissive of the Old Testament at all. I'm just saying you have to read it with context.

Jesus has a different point of view.

Matthew 5:17-18

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Again, Jesus is saying the exact same thing I'm telling you. The Law remains the same. He came to fulfill the Law (and to explain it to those who misunderstand). The Commandments state that all the Law and the prophets hang on the single truth that God is.

And you are pretty much showing that the BCP is more man made doctrine that is made up to try not to conflict with teachings of the old laws. You are a christian apologist who keeps making up excuses for why the church, bible, and over all the religion of chrisitanity is so effed up.

I've been saying all along that the BCP is man made doctrine. Why are you still trying to argue that? Where you are wrong is that I never said it was made up to try and not conflict with the old laws. I was simply explaining it's origins. Early on, the Church needed to reconcile the fact that they were worshipping Jesus, and the way they did that was come to the conclusion that God was made up of three parts (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). They also made up the the rite of Communion, to fulfill Jesus's request at the Last Supper, that when people ate and drank, that they give thanks to God, in rememberance of Him.

Where have I ever apologized for Christianity, or made any excuses? If anything, I've condemned those that would use Christianity, (or Judaism, in the case of the Old Testament) as an excuse to do those despicable acts you keep throwing out as examples. You need to understand the difference between Religion and people who follow religions. Just because someone claims to be following a certain religion, doesn't make it so. There have been many horrible crimes committed over the centuries in the name of Christianity. That doesn't mean those crimes were Christian acts. Can you see the difference?

As long as people feel like they have god on their side, they are capable of the most atrocious acts imaginable. If they have to amend the rules of their belief system, they will do so in order to feel justified in the way they act. Take King Henry the 8th as an example. He wanted to get divorced (he was Roman Catholic) and the pope said no. What does he do? He establishes the church of England and separates himself from Catholicism...well, the parts that he didn't like anyway.

If there is so much stuff that is made up in regards to religion, is it really illogical to think that all of it has been made up? There is no quantifiable evidence that suggests there is a god and if there were, I think it should clear its name without having humans distort every last piece of scripture.

[Cappster]

If there is "evidence" for god, it should not contradict itself. I can look at the theory of evolution and see every piece of the puzzle fit together. I can look at religion find that the puzzle doesn't fit and is illogical at best.

First, let me say that I don't see the mutual exclusivity you do between science and religion. I consider myself to be a man of science and a man of faith. Second, there are plenty of contradictions in science. If you didn't know that, then you really don't know anything about science at all. That's why scientists propose theories. As they make observations of contradictions, they propose a theory to best explain these observations. Just as in science, religion is not set set in stone, as you (and many others) seem to believe. It is a journey of discovery. Not everything is black and white.

In science, if someone presents solid evidence that contradicts an established scientific principle, the old way is thrown out and replaced by the new theory. They don't keep on believing the same old nonsense, because it is old and traditional or for the fact that don't want to believe the new evidence. And I was talking about the consensus, in the scientific community, that evolution is, indeed fact and has withstood for quite a long time now without anyway being able to refute the theory.

Religion states that it knows "the truth, the way, and the light." It's just that when science comes along and presents evidence that contradicts the prophecies, religion has to amend what they teach to make it look like what they originally claimed to still be true.

[Cappster]

blah blah blah..
here's my issue.

lil girl gets beaten, raped, murdered.. dies.
lil wayne gets hammered off multiple heavy drugs, goes to hospital.. lives.

God has the last word, we are not to question it.
Growing up i'm told to question everything.

I understand what everyone is saying but forget about all that for a moment. Just use the example I gave above about the girl and lil wayne.. now tell me about God as if I never read a bible in my life. Please. Anyone. And remember, use the examples I gave please.

Cappo.. you too are more than welcomed to answer bro, all opinions are valid, no one is WRONG because how the flip would we know?

I've got the answer: God is mysterious! Ahahahahaaaa

Assuming that god exists and is an omnipotent and omniscient being, I would say that god probably loves lil Wayne a little more than that innocent little girl who died a horrific death. See, this is where the apologists come in and truly do say that god is mysterious and he has a plan or her reward is in heaven, blah blah blah. If you had never heard of god and someone came to you, as an adult, speaking about the wonders of the sky deity, you would probably think they were crazy. I mean, imagine if someone came up to you claiming how awesome the flying spaghetti monster is and all the wonders that little meaty and delicious flying pasta has done in their life. Maybe if someone invented the FSM two thousand years ago, we all would be walking around wearing spaghetti strainers on our heads.

[Cappster]

^^^

This all makes sense ... and an atheist/scientist can feel the same way "in reverse" without any hostility. They can feel saved from the burning building of "mysticism" by science and then want to see others "saved" in the same way.

Hey Darth - I'll stand corrected on that. I was a bit blind to that fact but this makes sense to me as well.

Thanks for pointing it out to me.

If it is what helps you make it through the day I am glad you find comfort in Jesus. The problem I have most is when religion tries to exert its influence over politics or people use it to justify otherwise unjustifiable actions. I see it way too often in that people want to use the bible to justify their stance against something like equal marriage. They state "If we allow gays to get married god will punish our nation blah blah blah." To me, that is just an excuse for a person to exercise bigoted behavior. I mean, if I were speaking out against religion a few hundred years ago, I would be facing being burned at the stake or being beheaded. Religion is not this G rated screening as the words that lie in the ancient texts of the major religions consist of R and X rated material.

[SkinsJock]

there is no way that anyone can reason with someone who refuses to look at anything except from his own point of view

and

there is no way to reason or debate anyone who continues to use any and all acts that ONLY suit his point of view and not look for those that do not

[Deadskins]

there is no way that anyone can reason with someone who refuses to look at anything except from his own point of view

and

there is no way to reason or debate anyone who continues to use any and all acts that ONLY suit his point of view and not look for those that do not

+1
I'm through here.

[Cappster]

I am not sure how I refused to look at anything other than my point of view? I've been on both sides of the argument as I used to be a Christian and now I am not. I am sorry if I do not recognize faith based arguments as actual evidence, because I use actual evidence as well as logic and reasoning to argue my point. If that is unacceptable to you then it is probably in your best interest not to respond and keep moving on.

[Deadskins]

I am not sure how I refused to look at anything other than my point of view? I've been on both sides of the argument as I used to be a Christian and now I am not. I am sorry if I do not recognize faith based arguments as actual evidence, because I use actual evidence as well as logic and reasoning to argue my point. If that is unacceptable to you then it is probably in your best interest not to respond and keep moving on.

Please! You haven't produced any evidence, nor used logic, at all. And your reasoning on the topic is specious and contrived. You're not interested in a civil conversation about faith. You are only looking to ridicule those that would engage you in a discussion about the subject of God's existence. Your posts in this thread remind me of "the Poster's" contributions in HogWash.

[Cappster]

^^^^^^ Evidence of how a religious person acts when questioning his or her faith. Try to marginalize the other person to help invalidate that persons argument instead of actually refuting said persons argument.