Evaluate How Coaches Used RGIII vs Seattle and All Year

[DarthMonk]

Instead of talking about this in threads about the knee how about we talk about in a thread about this issue. It's not crying over spilled milk to evaluate our coaches and their decisions.

Before the season I made a prediction about RGIII's stats and LPJ replied. Here it that exchange:

Under Kyle we have thrown 591 and then 605 passes. Yardage numbers are 3931 and 3773. TDs are 21 and 19.

My Predictions:

Griff will throw 600 times for 4,000 yards and 24 TDs. He will run for 400 yards and another 4 TDs.

He is an upgrade, isn't he?

Darthmonk

He will run for 400 yards

I hope to the good lord you're wrong about that. He definitely shouldn't be running that much or even close to that.

So now the season is over. We had many discussions where many of us said, in a nutshell, he is not a running QB, he is a pass-first QB who can run. I still believe that when I see him drop back to pass. I saw him tweak his knee in the 1st quarter trying to stop and throw right before he helped put us up 14-0. But Kyle and Mike used him as a runner this year. They asked him to be a running QB. Many might say they over did it. I would.

Call it 20-20 hindsight. Call is blindsight. Call it being emotional if you want. I'll call it evaluating how they used him this year and against the Seahawks.

I think this is a good kickoff quote with some rlevant points highlighted by me.

Stop whining. What's done is done. We aren't playing this weekend because we lost. Should we, could we, and would we have won with a healthy RGIII?? Yes.

But, that wasn't the case, and it does nothing to cry over spilled milk. Let's hope that he can put this knee issue behind him now that it's been repaired. The positive aspect of this is that structurally his knee will be stronger than ever. And, at age 22, he should regain his strength, speed, and explosiveness a lot quicker than he would if he were 29 or so.

That's nonsense. The outcome of that game is the most inconsequential of the issues here. This franchise made a huge investment in this Kid ... and by the way ... the pain and suffering and rehab he'll have to endure over the next several months also happens to be more important than this one "precious game", considering he was dealt for to play these types of games for the next dozen or more years. That's the point!

RELATIVE TO THAT POINT, comes the very simple and logical, time tested philosophy of assessing the factors that contributed to this disastrous result, for the equally important effort to avoid repeating the same mistakes. It's not an exercise that can change the damage already done, but preventing it from happening again is a worthy cause.

This C'est la vie attitude really chaps my rear end, as it totally dismisses the need for doing just that .. assessing how this happened, and how the risk of it happening again can be minimized. Of course injuries cannot be prevented, but the decisions that lead to "unnecessary risk" of injury is what we're dealing with, particularly if that involves carelessness or negligence in the way this situation was handled by people who should KNOW BETTER, and not allow the outcome of a single game, or the wants and desires of a 22 year old player overrule those who are in charge that should exercise better judgement. To heck with Andrews and Shanahan's obvious self serving CYA exercises after the fact .... that is to be expected, and I predicted that too.

There is no big mystery why ... out of the top rookie QB's that had came out this year ... that it was only RG3 who finished in a fetal position in the freaking dirt, and facing major reconstructive knee surgery. This result was a fear voiced all year by many around the league who suggested that he'd not last very long with the way he was being used, including yours truly. That is an undeniable fact, and a situation that needs further scrutiny given those warnings have become reality.

The situation is only exacerbated by the fact that RG3 was allowed to hobble around for 3 quarters, virtually incapacitated, when anyone with a marginal grasp of common sense would have pulled him from the game after it was clear he was not capable of even protecting himself. Race Horses are treated with better care and caution than was offered this kid, who didn't know better, and shouldn't be expected to take himself out of the game.

His Coach has that responsibility, but even now, after the fact, he won't own it, and neither will his Son who's reckless abandon in the way he utilized this kids skills ALL YEAR ... including such bone headed decisions like sending him out as a freaking wide receiver, may have been successful in producing exciting results, but at what cost?

If you ask me, there should be some shared costs for this disaster ... rather than the entire bill be paid by RG3 in his pain and suffering ... particularly when what he might have to look forward to is just more of the same, from the same "blameless", when he eventually returns.

So, what is your opinion of how the coaches used RGIII this year and vs Seattle?

I say we called too many designed running plays for him. We featured the pistol instead of sprinkling it in. This may have helped bring about excessive "head hunting" by defenses. I think using him in a way that would have resulted in 600 passes and 400 yards rushing may not have won us 10 games (though it may) but I also believe it would have been more likely to leave us with a currently much healthier RGIII who would also be further along in his development with regards to understanding defenses and going through progressions and such. In other words, he'd be a better QB.

In the final game we had guys running free and Griff was missing them consistently - and remember - he had been extremely accurate. Oh, and he was limping like the big dog. It was obvious to me he needed to be pulled, at the latest, at halftime.

I think we misused him in general during the year and then made some horrible non-decisions in the last game. Of course, when you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.



DarthMonk

[DarthMonk]

I see. Here is what Boswell thinks. I happen to agree.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/re ... story.html

[welch]

I see. Here is what Boswell thinks. I happen to agree.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/re ... story.html

I agree with Boswell, and argued -- on a Nats fan site -- that Strassburg out to be shut down exactly as Rizzo planned.

However...I'd rather think about what happens next than criticize Shanahan and the Redskins. A hunch: most people will agree that Griffin was given too many running plays; we will disagree about whether Shanahan should be boiled in oil, shot at sunrise, beheaded, or forced to sit beside and listen to Jimmy Johnson for 72 consecutive hours (a variety of torture as defined in the Geneva Conventions)

[SkinsJock]

I understand all the rhetoric - I just look at how Mike and Kyle adapted over the season differently

All I really care about is seeing RG3 playing again and seeing Mike and Kyle continuing to adapt the offense to suit what he does best

RG3 has world class speed and I believe he will continue to have that - I hope that Mike & Kyle CONTINUE to ADAPT the offense as they have done here and they continue to make this Redskins offense be based around what RG3 does AND take advantage of that world class speed AND the passing ability/talent that this kid has

I do not agree that Mike and Kyle will put RG3 at risk per se - they will have a VERY special offense as they have shown here recently
IMO - Kyle and Mike designed and planned this offense very well - RG3 himself admits it took some time but he finally got it and at the end the runs were designed but he was hampered is all


My feeling is RG3 is going to be a lot better when he comes back - faster and wiser - I'm really looking forward to seeing this kid show his talents again

WE have NEVER seen an NFL QB that offers world class speed and incredible passing ability - that will not change and the offense will still be based around that

RG3 will not play or practice in a 'limiting' environment

[GoodOldDays]

How they used him was okay with me. The two regular season injuries came on scrambles and frankly could have been avoided had Robert gotten out of bounds (Falcons game) or kept his legs down (Ravens game). Most of the designed runs had him running to open space with ample opportunity to slide or get out of bounds and in many cases he had a lead blocker.

The screw-up, obviously, was leaving him in the game too long against Seattle. He was ineffective and clearly looked injured. If he comes out of that game at halftime I'd have no complaints.

[SkinsJock]

I'd have taken him out of the game as soon as I saw he could not run very well

I think we would have been better off with Cousins in there shortly after the first few plays, when it should have been clear there was something wrong

It's over - we move on - does anyone think there's any doubt that we're going to win the NFC East next year


I feel that Mike has a little better image than Bill Belicheat with the national media - NOT GOOD

WHO CARES - he's a great HC and he's here - this is not a popularity contest

I don't like Mike as a person but I think he's a great HC

[RayNAustin]

Since Darthmonk used my post as a kickoff to the discussion (thanks, Darth), there are a couple of qualifying points that need to be established right off the bat ...

1) The suggestion of "rhetoric" totally misses the point, as "rhetoric" implies insincerity. My opinions are anything but insincere.

2) The "Water under the bridge" attitude dismisses the most important requirement in moving forward ... the need for accountability, which I believe is paramount to preventing similar errors in the future. The repair of RG3's knee does not make the need for accountability go away. The nature of this serious injury, and the decisions made that contributed to this result demands critical assessment, and appropriate action, not as a punishment, but as a protection against repeating those errors.

3) For those interested in short and sweet, skip the rest of this post, because this is not a simple 2+2=4 equation ... the issues are far more complex, and if you wish to have an informed opinion .. simple doesn't cut it.

Lot's of people consider the criticisms of Shanahan as hindsight, but that is the "rhetoric", as these criticisms did not emerge after the fact, but have been there all along ... at least from me, anyway. Moreover, some believe these criticisms are made in a vacuum, or are isolated to RG3's initial knee injury and how that was handled for the last 4 games of the year. That's not true, either. The assessments and criticisms I have are measured across the full body of work over the past three seasons, not 4 games, or even just this season. Though this mishandling of RG3 is the most serious to date, it is BY FAR not an isolated demonstration of questionable judgement, and that's really the issue in my view .... the wisdom and judgement factor of this Mike and Kyle Shanahan team. That's the area that needs focus, because poor judgement can manifest in countless errors that cannot be addressed proactively. That old saying, "you can't fix stupid" applies to poor judgement as well.

Without going into too many details of past decisions, it's important to recall a few of the many instances of poor judgement just for the sake of illustrating the points, which could include the the questionable decision to restructure the entire defense, day one, when the focus should have been where it was needed most ... on offense. The questionable handling of McNabb in 2010, and the Grossman-Beck carousel which took place last year, including the "I'll stake my reputation on John Beck" declaration seem to have escaped any form of accountability, no doubt due in large measure to the insulating factor of Shanahan's reputation, when another coach might have been crucified for less. This is just a small sample, with many more examples available, but I'll leave it at that.

This overall history illustrates that the mishandling of RG3 is not an isolated case of faulty or questionable judgement, but simply the most recent and most disastrous installment. And though it may be cliche' ... the first step in fixing any problem is first admitting that a problem exists, and that is something the Shanahans have been strenuously resistant to. I have never seen an unqualified admission of fault or error, except once ... when Shanahan admitted that using RG3 as a receiver was a "dumb move" and would not be repeated. And that event illustrates my point better than any other that I can cite .... because that couldn't have occurred with a staff that possessed sound judgement. Keep in mind ... this was a designed play. That means that it had to be drawn up, it had to be taught, and practiced on the practice field before it was executed in a game. Where is the coach possessing enough common sense to say ... "what the hell are you doing? You are not planning to use this franchise QB in some numskull, sandlot football trickery that'll likely get him t-boned by a safety, are you?" For God's sake, the moment that play unfolded, I was dumbfounded at the stupidity ... not questionable judgement .. plain, unadulterated stupidity, and this is really the only time I can recall where Mike Shanahan admitted error without a bag of excuses. Of course, that one was such a glaring example of poor judgement, one could hardly find a reasonable excuse.

This illustrates the underlying levels of less than optimal judgement that chose to install this pistol formation and double-triple option scheme which made RG3 the second leading rusher on the team, by design. And while everyone was worried about the very idea of RG3 being a run first QB leading up to the draft ... the response was that he was not a running QB, but a pass first QB that could also run. Nevertheless, Kyle Shanahan, apparently endorsed by the Head Coach, developed an offensive scheme which focussed on using RG3 a damned running QB by design, and though this designed running was eventually scaled back a little bit as the season progressed, with encouragement from a resulting concussion that highlighted the need ... this run mentality remained, because it was ingrained and reinforced as a primary weapon right from day one, rather than utilized cautiously and selectively as a complementary threat.

When you have a young player like RG3, and you have the desire to keep him healthy and not shorten his career, you don't encourage the run by design, because that tendency is already there in him, and needs to be managed with caution and restraint, not ingrained and encouraged. No matter how remarkable a player, he is still a rookie, and still 22 years old and in his mind, invincible, so the wisdom must come from the coaches. Sure the temptation is there to install plays to leap tall buildings when Superman is on the roster, but you just can't give in to it, and allow that to overrule better judgment or serve as a crutch for shortcomings in other areas of the offensive scheme. Do you think that such a scheme doesn't facilitate some of the reckless abandon for which RG3 plays? This kid is not the type to step out of bounds when a first down is only 4 more yards .. or throw the ball away if he can scramble for a 5 yard gain. So those risks must be managed by avoiding those situations as much as possible .. not building them into the scheme as a frequent go to weapon.

And this is where I have my greatest concerns moving forward. Some assume that this will be a lesson learned for Shanahan and RG3, and that more caution will be exercised in the future. But I don't agree, and here's why ... and this is an IMPORTANT POINT ... throughout the year, and even after the initial knee injury, when faced with questions about RG3's running, Shanahan has said several times that in his opinion, the risk of injury is just as great, and even more so while in the pocket, while running allows RG3 to avoid hits, and is actually safer. Now I don't know if Shanahan is actually drinking his own kool-aide here, and believes that nonsense or not, but it is nonetheless absurd, and a well established reality, recognized across the NFL, that running QBs are in far more danger of injury than pocket passers. So again, in the face of well established facts to the contrary, Shanahan still believes, or wants you to believe, that the overall offensive strategy that resulted in a concussion and destroyed knee is perfectly sound? I have a HUGE PROBLEM with that, and anyone who gives this a moment's consideration should too.

The reality is, this is not sound offensive scheme if you want RG3 to have a long career in the NFL, but it is exciting and may produce some short term benefits if that is your only concern. That this offensive scheme has been subject to much scrutiny and concern all year, and warnings of the risks being taken with RG3's health having been ever present, we now have experienced the very worst case scenario, justifying those voiced concerns, and proving in everyone's minds, except, apparently the Shanahans, that this injury was not simply a fluke accident, but a predictable result.

And if there was any doubt about that before, there is absolutely no room for doubt now, after we saw RG3 being allowed to remain on the field against Seattle, floundering and virtually defenseless, until he collapsed in a pile just trying to pick up an errant snap, and without being touched. And we still have Shanahan trying to justify his decision to allow RG3 to remain on the field long after it was evident to everyone that he needed to be pulled out of that game. The excuse? RG3 said he was OK ... so, the fault can now be offloaded onto the 22 year old QB, and not owned and accepted by the man responsible. Surprise, surprise.

That not enough? How about running a designed bootleg in the 4th quarter, that we all saw RG3 limp badly for a 9 yard gain? This was explained as a test to see if he could still run and stay in the game? WHAT? How could anyone not see what was evident to 90,000 fans, the entire Seattle staff and sideline ... Millions of TV viewers .... how is this remotely possible? I'll tell you .... grossly poor judgement, and walking a fine line very near gross negligence.

In the final analysis, the stated prognosis for RG3's recovery that will allow him to be ready for the 2013 season by Dr. Andrews ... and the 6-8 month time frame for recovery is also deeply concerning. Since we already know RG3 will play no matter what condition he's in ... and that apparently Mike and Kyle Shanahan (and even Dr. Andrews for that matter) cannot be trusted to utilize better judgment, since all three were willing to allow him to play when he shouldn't, there is absolutely every reason to be concerned about how RG3 will be handled coming back. This now well established pattern of poor judgment does nothing to alleviate the fear of RG3 being allowed to return to the field prematurely, with the associated risks involved. Frankly, for anyone paying attention, why would anyone expect anything else? There's no evidence that wisdom and good judgement and caution will play any significant role?

So, with all things considered ... I have ZERO confidence that the men most responsible for these disastrous results are the proper men to be responsible for the recovery and ongoing management and development of RG3's career, moving forward into the future.

I can find not one shred of evidence to believe that the Shanahans will find this missing wisdom, or magically discover good judgement over the course of 6-8 months, and therefore, the choice is clear ... do you want the Shanahans to remain in charge, or do you want to see RG3's career last more than 4 years?

That's the choice.

[SkinsJock]

Ray - I don't want the Shanahans here but I do not see Danny Snyder firing a HC who just won the NFC East

now IF we had lost RG3, that might happen - we did not and I fully expect him to be even better after the operation which gave Dr Andrews a chance to make the ACL 'better' as well as repairing the LCL AND now he's going to be getting ready for next season with an attitude to be even better than last season - I love it

Mike is not a 'good guy' or a 'player's coach' by any stretch - he's just a very successful HC and he's staying here

I don't agree that RG3 is more likely to get injured JUST BECAUSE Mike is the HC - that's really a stretch

Kyle, Mike and RG3 are going to CONTINUE to adapt the offense and I don't think any defense is going to suddenly figure out how to deal with a QB who is INCREDIBLY fast AND VERY GOOD at reading defenses

[The Hogster]

The way he was used didn't get him injured. The only dumb play that put him at risk was that god awful WR Pass to Griffin where Ryan Clark laid him out. That was Kyle being a tool.

But, his concussion and his initial knee injury came on DROP BACK PLAYS where he scrambled.

Even the 1st quarter pass where he tweaked his knee came on a traditional pass play.

The only thing up for debate is whether he should have been pulled from the game against Seattle.

But let's say this. If you're gonna play the what if game, then what if Will Montgomery didn't snap the ball at his feet??

What if we strike a pass play to a WR and tie up the game 21-21 and win on an OT FG??

Then what? Is Shanahan a genius? Better yet, does Kirk Cousins start against ATL?

What is done is done. RGIII was probably more injured initially than was reported. The initial timeframe was 2-4 weeks. But, 4 weeks later, he didn't look any different than he did against the Eagles and Cowboys. Maybe it was worse than Grade 1, or maybe there was a setback along the way. A tear that worsened until it popped early in the first quarter, leading to the snap of the already repaired ACL which would have been over compensating for the lack of lateral stability.

There's plenty of blame to go around. But, as of right now, one thing is for sure. RGIII's knee is now structurally sound. It
is repaired.

So let's deal with the recovery.

[RayNAustin]

Ray - I don't want the Shanahans here but I do not see Danny Snyder firing a HC who just won the NFC East

I sadly agree that he is unlikely to fire Shanahan over this, even though he most certainly should, in my opinion. And that may be in part due to the complete fallacy that Shanahan won the NFC East ... he didn't, RG3 and Alfred Morris did, and Robert has the freaking scars to prove it, while Mike has invisible egg on his face.

now IF we had lost RG3, that might happen - we did not and I fully expect him to be even better after the operation which gave Dr Andrews a chance to make the ACL 'better' as well as repairing the LCL AND now he's going to be getting ready for next season with an attitude to be even better than last season - I love it

Don't drink this kool-aide ... I know Andrews is considered the best, and that may be true, but that doesn't mean he's the most honest. And honestly, he's got some skin in this game too ... he was there on the sideline wearing that Redskin Beanie, as RG3 played when he most certainly shouldn't have been. Shanahan hasn't hesitated to point to the Doctor and RG3 as the determining factors responsible for his decision, and the Doctor agreed to assume that responsibility by not objecting to Robert's continuing to play.

You've already revealed that you embrace the "Whatever Doc Andrews says" opinion ... but again, that ignores the context of Andrews playing a role in this debacle. You should also consider what other qualified Doctors are saying, who don't have a bias:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/ro ... story.html

When anyone says or insinuates this "better than new" crap ... you can dismiss them as imbeciles or liars. It's just not true, and especially for someone who has already undergone one reconstruction. There is a good chance that he can return from this and regain his previous performance levels in time .. but not immediately, and certainly not better.

Mike is not a 'good guy' or a 'player's coach' by any stretch - he's just a very successful HC and he's staying here

I don't agree that RG3 is more likely to get injured JUST BECAUSE Mike is the HC - that's really a stretch

No, it is a stretch to think that the poor judgement and decisions that led to this disaster will magically fix themselves. That is the "clockwise" version of logic that relies on evidence already established, rather than just believing something because you want to believe it.

Kyle, Mike and RG3 are going to CONTINUE to adapt the offense and I don't think any defense is going to suddenly figure out how to deal with a QB who is INCREDIBLY fast AND VERY GOOD at reading defenses

Defenses already adapted this year ... which forced Kyle to gear back on the triple option. Defenses stopped trying to guess whether RG3 was going to run a keeper, and simply ignored where the ball was and clobbered the snot out of him. That led to the "hands in the air, I don't have the ball" routine, which sorta defeats the premise of the option.

But I'm not arguing that the read option is not a valuable tool, so long as it is used in moderation and with caution, but I've seen no evidence to suggest that level of caution exists with either Kyle or Robert. Jesus Key Reist man, what do you need? A ton of bricks to fall on your head? They were running RG3 on a bootleg in the 4th Q when he was close to wheelchair material. How can you not see this?

[DarthMonk]

The way he was used didn't get him injured. -snip-

But, his concussion and his initial knee injury came on DROP BACK PLAYS where he scrambled.

Even the 1st quarter pass where he tweaked his knee came on a traditional pass play.

The last 2 lines are clearly true but I think we used him overly daringly and with braggadocio which, in turn, led to head hunting. I've never seen guys go after other QBs the way they went after RGIII ... except maybe Vick.

The only thing up for debate is whether he should have been pulled from the game against Seattle.

I disagree but that's cool. Actually, I'd say this is the one thing that is NOT up for debate. He simply should have been pulled.

But let's say this. If you're gonna play the what if game, then what if Will Montgomery didn't snap the ball at his feet??

What if we strike a pass play to a WR and tie up the game 21-21 and win on an OT FG??

Then what? Is Shanahan a genius? Better yet, does Kirk Cousins start against ATL?

I really don't want to play that game but since we are I'd say if that had happened it simply would have been a horrible set of decisions that ended up working miraculously. I just re-watched the game.

During the season RGIII was one of the most accurate passers in the league. After 14-0 we had guys running free all day and he was missing them by a mile. On top of that he was limping badly. I'm guessing his 40 time at that point would have been about 8 seconds. Seattle started to ignore him as a run threat. He clearly could not outrun linemen. At that point, not only were we jeopardizing his health - Kirk was actually the better option.

What is done is done.

That's why I started this thread. The what's done is done stuff is ... other thread stuff.

-snip- So let's deal with the recovery.

All for that but that's another sidestep concerning any culpability the staff may or may not have in this horrible set of events. Let's deal with recovery in knee threads and weigh in on the Shannahans in this one.

Hogman, etal. ... I love the Redskins. I am not a troll. That should be obvious. RGIII is my favorite player. Shannahan has some good qualities as a coach. I think the way you started the "Playoffs?" thread is applicable here:

The Washington Redskins, and its players must focus solely on the game in front of them. -snip- But, we fans aren't held to that singular focus.

We fans get to post in forums and argue about coaching wisdom. And a staff has more to think about than winning a game. Ironically, had victory been their focus, some wisdom informed by calm would have led to taking the pressure off Griff by removing him before he was essentially crippled and playing the healthy guy who could throw accurately.

I'm worried about future Shannahan decisions based on what I've seen in the past - especially the recent past.

[Burgundy&Wha?]

Was the play call on the Ngata hit a called run? I can't recall. If not, isn't the harping on the amount of running plays somewhat moot?

[The Hogster]

Was the play call on the Ngata hit a called run? I can't recall. If not, isn't the harping on the amount of running plays somewhat moot?

It was a pass play. A regular drop back play where he took off. So was the concussion play.

[The Hogster]

The way he was used didn't get him injured. -snip-

But, his concussion and his initial knee injury came on DROP BACK PLAYS where he scrambled.

Even the 1st quarter pass where he tweaked his knee came on a traditional pass play.

The last 2 lines are clearly true but I think we used him overly daringly and with braggadocio which, in turn, led to head hunting. I've never seen guys go after other QBs the way they went after RGIII ... except maybe Vick.

The only thing up for debate is whether he should have been pulled from the game against Seattle.

I disagree but that's cool. Actually, I'd say this is the one thing that is NOT up for debate. He simply should have been pulled.

But let's say this. If you're gonna play the what if game, then what if Will Montgomery didn't snap the ball at his feet??

What if we strike a pass play to a WR and tie up the game 21-21 and win on an OT FG??

Then what? Is Shanahan a genius? Better yet, does Kirk Cousins start against ATL?

I really don't want to play that game but since we are I'd say if that had happened it simply would have been a horrible set of decisions that ended up working miraculously. I just re-watched the game.

During the season RGIII was one of the most accurate passers in the league. After 14-0 we had guys running free all day and he was missing them by a mile. On top of that he was limping badly. I'm guessing his 40 time at that point would have been about 8 seconds. Seattle started to ignore him as a run threat. He clearly could not outrun linemen. At that point, not only were we jeopardizing his health - Kirk was actually the better option.

What is done is done.

That's why I started this thread. The what's done is done stuff is ... other thread stuff.

-snip- So let's deal with the recovery.

All for that but that's another sidestep concerning any culpability the staff may or may not have in this horrible set of events. Let's deal with recovery in knee threads and weigh in on the Shannahans in this one.

Hogman, etal. ... I love the Redskins. I am not a troll. That should be obvious. RGIII is my favorite player. Shannahan has some good qualities as a coach. I think the way you started the "Playoffs?" thread is applicable here:

The Washington Redskins, and its players must focus solely on the game in front of them. -snip- But, we fans aren't held to that singular focus.

We fans get to post in forums and argue about coaching wisdom. And a staff has more to think about than winning a game. Ironically, had victory been their focus, some wisdom informed by calm would have led to taking the pressure off Griff by removing him before he was essentially crippled and playing the healthy guy who could throw accurately.

I'm worried about future Shannahan decisions based on what I've seen in the past - especially the recent past.

I hear what you're saying, but keep in mind that his injuries came on scramble plays. Also, the read option is just that. RGIII is reading the play. He has the option to handoff or run based on the defense. So, I don't think that is a coaching error either--unless you're suggesting that we shouldn't have run the zone read that much.

As for the Seattle game, he should have been pulled. But, I can see how Shanahan would have left him in listening to how RGIII describes what he's feeling.

[Burgundy&Wha?]

Was the play call on the Ngata hit a called run? I can't recall. If not, isn't the harping on the amount of running plays somewhat moot?

It was a pass play. A regular drop back play where he took off. So was the concussion play.

Doesn't that make the complaints of called runs a little off base?

Yes, I'd like to see fewer called runs next year. Sure. But if RG III sprints out of the pocket and heads downfield, we shouldn't blame the play calling if something bad happens. Of course, the media types will harp either way.

[The Hogster]

Was the play call on the Ngata hit a called run? I can't recall. If not, isn't the harping on the amount of running plays somewhat moot?

It was a pass play. A regular drop back play where he took off. So was the concussion play.

Doesn't that make the complaints of called runs a little off base?

Yes, I'd like to see fewer called runs next year. Sure. But if RG III sprints out of the pocket and heads downfield, we shouldn't blame the play calling if something bad happens. Of course, the media types will harp either way.

I agree. I thnk too much blame is on the coaches. We used him fine. He just needs to protect himself better. He doesn't have a knack for when to slide, get down, or get out of bounds. He's got a killer instinct that backfires on him sometimes.

[Burgundy&Wha?]

Was the play call on the Ngata hit a called run? I can't recall. If not, isn't the harping on the amount of running plays somewhat moot?

It was a pass play. A regular drop back play where he took off. So was the concussion play.

Doesn't that make the complaints of called runs a little off base?

Yes, I'd like to see fewer called runs next year. Sure. But if RG III sprints out of the pocket and heads downfield, we shouldn't blame the play calling if something bad happens. Of course, the media types will harp either way.

I agree. I thnk too much blame is on the coaches. We used him fine. He just needs to protect himself better. He doesn't have a knack for when to slide, get down, or get out of bounds. He's got a killer instinct that backfires on him sometimes.

You're right. And, to go against something I said above, a lot of those options/designed runs allowed for Robert to get some yards downfield WITHOUT really risking being hit. He can get some yards and SLIDE. He tends to push it to the edge, though.

What gets me, we will hear this weekend about the Wonderful Mr. Wilson and his arm and his magical running ability. No issues with him running similar plays.

Thank goodness for basketball season -- except my 'Heels are sucking it up so far.

[RayNAustin]

The way he was used didn't get him injured. The only dumb play that put him at risk was that god awful WR Pass to Griffin where Ryan Clark laid him out. That was Kyle being a tool.

But, his concussion and his initial knee injury came on DROP BACK PLAYS where he scrambled.

This is totally unreasonable. It's like saying that last drink made you drunk, and not the previous 12 drinks before it.

Among QBs in the National Football League, RG3 ran for the most yards of any QB. and is 20th overall in yards rushing, beating out over 1/3 of the starting running backs in the NFL. 120 carries, and 815 yards. Compare that to Andrew Luck's 62 carries and 255 yards. That's 58 extra chances defenses have to clobber the crap out of RG3, and that crap takes a collective toll on the body AND the joints and ligaments.

What you seem to want to dismiss or ignore is that this type of punishment is cumulative, and it builds up over the course of a season, so it's really not about the specific play that an injury occurred, as much as it is about a numbers game, and the number of times he's exposed, and the mindset that is ingrained by running so much. The fact that defenses are really taking shots whenever they get a chance plays a part also ... he's got a target on his back.

Even the 1st quarter pass where he tweaked his knee came on a traditional pass play.

Again, that's just not the whole story .. he was already injured, and I suspect the damage was greater than we've been told. So the injury there was a worsening of an existing injury.

The only thing up for debate is whether he should have been pulled from the game against Seattle.

No ... not up for debate. The results speak loud and clear ... we lost him to severe injury and lost the game too, so by that measure, there is no debate ... he should have been pulled. The only debatable matter is whether Shanahan should have exercised better judgement by not continuing to play him while injured. And I say he should have known better.

But let's say this. If you're gonna play the what if game, then what if Will Montgomery didn't snap the ball at his feet??

Totally irrelevant ... he did not injure himself on that play, that play just showed how physically compromised he was by not being able to bend over and pick up a football on the ground. But anyone who was paying attention, already knew this .... the unstable knee simply gave because of the already damaged ligaments.

What if we strike a pass play to a WR and tie up the game 21-21 and win on an OT FG??

Then what? Is Shanahan a genius? Better yet, does Kirk Cousins start against ATL?

No .. regardless of the outcome of the game, there is no what ifs regarding the damage done. We don't know how much additional damage was caused by him playing the rest of the way on that damaged knee, and that's why players who are injured, need to come out .. so that no additional damage is done. So the right call would have been to pull him, and put Cousins in, and live with the results, win lose or draw.

What is done is done. RGIII was probably more injured initially than was reported.

If that is true, then how can you possibly condone Shanahan playing him, and lying about the severity of his injury? That would certainly demand his firing, and League action too.

The initial timeframe was 2-4 weeks. But, 4 weeks later, he didn't look any different than he did against the Eagles and Cowboys. Maybe it was worse than Grade 1, or maybe there was a setback along the way. A tear that worsened until it popped early in the first quarter, leading to the snap of the already repaired ACL which would have been over compensating for the lack of lateral stability.

This is likely to be the scenario, and I suspect the situation is something close to that. But here's the deal ... healing time does not mean practicing and playing on it simultaneously. You have to rest these injuries and rehab them ... not play through the pain and expect it to heal as you continue stressing the ligament. So it's likely that with each successive outing, Philly, then Dallas, and finally Seattle, that initial injury kept getting worse, until the LCL and ACL went out completely.

And, according to the surgeons I've listened to ... there was likely some damage to the ACL all along, because of how rare it is to have just LCL damage, without other damage occurring too. So that would tie back to the probability that the injury was either misdiagnosed from the start, or the severity not being revealed, or the claim that he could play without risking further injury was false, or a combination of all of that.

There's plenty of blame to go around. But, as of right now, one thing is for sure. RGIII's knee is now structurally sound. It
is repaired.

So let's deal with the recovery.

Plenty of blame to go around, but you refuse to spread it? Let's just forget it and move on?

You and I do not have to deal with the "recovery". Neither does Shanahan, or Andrews .... Robert has to deal with the recovery, and as I understand it, it's a grueling, painful, slow process taking months of hard, painful work.

So it's not a parking ticket, and it's not just a politically incorrect slip of the tongue to be forgotten about ... it's about what went wrong with this system that miserably failed to protect this player. They had the top orthopedic surgeon in the country standing on the side lines ... a training staff, and a head coach watching this injured player continue trying to play on torn ligaments, and likely causing more damage.

Forget it and move on is an outrageous suggestion that should only be coming from the mouth of beady eyed Mike, and Doctor Dolittle, who did nothing. Why was this Doctor there on the sidelines anyway? To give Mikey an excuse so he can offload any blame on RG3 and the Doctor?

It's also noteworthy that the Doctor probably made about 10 Grand an hour repairing the damage, so what incentive does he actually have for doing what is necessary to prevent such an injury from occurring? His good heart? His integrity? I'd say both of those things are now up for debate.

[GoodOldDays]

It's also noteworthy that the Doctor probably made about 10 Grand an hour repairing the damage, so what incentive does he actually have for doing what is necessary to prevent such an injury from occurring? His good heart? His integrity? I'd say both of those things are now up for debate.

What evidence do we have to think one of the country's most well-known (and consequently wealthiest) surgeons would disregard the Hippocratic oath in order to make a few grand?

Where is the evidence he did anything wrong?

[The Hogster]

It's also noteworthy that the Doctor probably made about 10 Grand an hour repairing the damage, so what incentive does he actually have for doing what is necessary to prevent such an injury from occurring? His good heart? His integrity? I'd say both of those things are now up for debate.

What evidence do we have to think one of the country's most well-known (and consequently wealthiest) surgeons would disregard the Hippocratic oath in order to make a few grand?

Where is the evidence he did anything wrong?

Great question. Although I'll warn you. Ray has been weeping over a carton of spilled milk since last Sunday. He doesn't want to be realistic. Instead he wants everyone to join a chorus of somber weeping, blame spreading, and will eventually circulate a 'Fire Somebody' petition shortly.

Just a warning.

[The Hogster]

Ray wrote:

This is totally unreasonable. It's like saying that last drink made you drunk, and not the previous 12 drinks before it.

Among QBs in the National Football League, RG3 ran for the most yards of any QB. and is 20th overall in yards rushing, beating out over 1/3 of the starting running backs in the NFL. 120 carries, and 815 yards. Compare that to Andrew Luck's 62 carries and 255 yards. That's 58 extra chances defenses have to clobber the crap out of RG3, and that crap takes a collective toll on the body AND the joints and ligaments.

What you seem to want to dismiss or ignore is that this type of punishment is cumulative, and it builds up over the course of a season, so it's really not about the specific play that an injury occurred, as much as it is about a numbers game, and the number of times he's exposed, and the mindset that is ingrained by running so much.

SMH. This is wrong on so many levels. If you watched the Ravens game, you would know that the application of 340 lbs of torque (Haloti Ngata) against a leg whipping in the opposite direction (RGIII) is what injured Robert's LCL initially. A sprain is a tearing of ligament fibres. This was not a cumulative impact injury. That's not how the ligaments of a 22 year old work. They don't wear down just because he's running. It takes a great deal of force to tear a ligament.

RGIII's concussion was also not a cumulative impact injury. It occurred on a specific impact. Do some research on ligament tears and concussions. You don't wear your ligaments out anymore than you wear your bones out--especially at age 22. He doesn't have Osteoperosis. He has a TEAR. Tears come from an impact.

The results speak loud and clear ... we lost him to severe injury and lost the game too, so by that measure, there is no debate ... he should have been pulled. The only debatable matter is whether Shanahan should have exercised better judgement by not continuing to play him while injured. And I say he should have known better.

Hindsight is 20/20. I still don't see how your soliloquy on this site matters much to an event that occurred a week ago. Venting I guess?

On the botched snap

he did not injure himself on that play, that play just showed how physically compromised he was by not being able to bend over and pick up a football on the ground. But anyone who was paying attention, already knew this .... the unstable knee simply gave because of the already damaged ligaments.

Let me know when those MRI glasses you wear are released to the general public. I want some.

You have no clue when his ACL tore. Doctors have said it was the low snap play as evidenced by a process called reflexion (sp?). When an ACL tears, the Quad muscles release or deactivate, making the leg go dead. That happened on the low snap play, which is why he fell in a heap and couldn't even move to try and reach for the ball. But, I'll wait for my MRI glasses to come in.

how can you possibly condone Shanahan playing him, and lying about the severity of his injury? That would certainly demand his firing, and League action too.

You are far too dramatic. Some of Robert's team mates didn't even know how badly injured he was. He was clearly limping around. But, what Shanahan did was a judgment call. It was the wrong call in hindsight, but unfortunately nobody has the benefit of it until an error is made. And, No he shouldn't be fired. These knee jerk reactions (no pun intended) are typical of fans, but spell disaster for a football team. We've just built a team that can contend for a Superbowl for years and you want the Head Coach fired?? Please

Plenty of blame to go around, but you refuse to spread it?

No. I spread it among Shanahan, RGIII and whoever was checking him on the sidelines. I just refuse to cry & complain about it now.

Let's just forget it and move on?

No, don't forget it. Learn from it and yes--move on.

They had the top orthopedic surgeon in the country standing on the side lines ... a training staff, and a head coach watching this injured player continue trying to play on torn ligaments, and likely causing more damage.

Forget it and move on is an outrageous suggestion that should only be coming from the mouth of beady eyed Mike, and Doctor Dolittle, who did nothing. Why was this Doctor there on the sidelines anyway? To give Mikey an excuse so he can offload any blame on RG3 and the Doctor?

Cry me a river.

It's also noteworthy that the Doctor probably made about 10 Grand an hour repairing the damage, so what incentive does he actually have for doing what is necessary to prevent such an injury from occurring? His good heart? His integrity? I'd say both of those things are now up for debate.

Dr. Andrews is so wealthy he's probably replaced all of his own ligaments with pure gold. He didn't do anything like this for money. His reputation is more valuable than any one client pays him. Please get a grip. You're sounding like a conspiracy theorist now. You want to hire a commission to investigate Knee Gate?? Buck up Ray.

[GoodOldDays]

Great question. Although I'll warn you. Ray has been weeping over a carton of spilled milk since last Sunday. He doesn't want to be realistic. Instead he wants everyone to join a chorus of somber weeping, blame spreading, and will eventually circulate a 'Fire Somebody' petition shortly.

Just a warning.

Fair enough, lol. In my opinion almost all of the blame falls on Shanny's shoulders. He should have seen what the rest of us did - that Griffin was clearly ineffective due to the knee - and kept him on the bench after halftime. We probably still lose the game, but it would have been the best way to keep the franchise out of harm's way when he's clearly hobbled.

I will say that if Griffin was dishonest at all with coaches or trainers he needs to shoulder some of the blame as well. I love that the guy is a competitor who wants to be on the field at all times, but if his knee was worse than he let on (a huge hypothetical "if") he's putting a lot of things in jeopardy above and beyond his own career. Trainers can't help you if they don't know what is going on.

From what I've seen/read I don't think Griffin did anything wrong. I think Shanahan let his desire to win convince him to believe the player's words instead of what he was watching on the field.

[The Hogster]

Great question. Although I'll warn you. Ray has been weeping over a carton of spilled milk since last Sunday. He doesn't want to be realistic. Instead he wants everyone to join a chorus of somber weeping, blame spreading, and will eventually circulate a 'Fire Somebody' petition shortly.

Just a warning.

Fair enough, lol. In my opinion almost all of the blame falls on Shanny's shoulders. He should have seen what the rest of us did - that Griffin was clearly ineffective due to the knee - and kept him on the bench after halftime. We probably still lose the game, but it would have been the best way to keep the franchise out of harm's way when he's clearly hobbled.

I will say that if Griffin was dishonest at all with coaches or trainers he needs to shoulder some of the blame as well. I love that the guy is a competitor who wants to be on the field at all times, but if his knee was worse than he let on (a huge hypothetical "if") he's putting a lot of things in jeopardy above and beyond his own career. Trainers can't help you if they don't know what is going on.

From what I've seen/read I don't think Griffin did anything wrong. I think Shanahan let his desire to win convince him to believe the player's words instead of what he was watching on the field.

I agree. He was clearly hurting and ineffective. But, I can also understand why he left him in. If he thought he was just hurting, and not injured, then I can see why he would have left him in.

Everything happens for a reason. I read where Robert's father said that when Andrews got inside the knee, he could tell that the original ACL repair from 2009 was not strong enough. I'll find the article. He basically said the 2009 repair would be fine for someone who didn't play pro sports, but that Andrews basically re-did the original reconstruction, but better.

If this is true, then perhaps we fixed a problem early that would have been an ongoing problem later. I try to focus on the positives which in this case are that now we know from the best doctor in this field, that his knee is now damn near bionic. It's just a matter of rehab and recovery. And based on the RGIII we all came to know, I am confident he will get back to being better than ever.

[RayNAustin]

It's also noteworthy that the Doctor probably made about 10 Grand an hour repairing the damage, so what incentive does he actually have for doing what is necessary to prevent such an injury from occurring? His good heart? His integrity? I'd say both of those things are now up for debate.

What evidence do we have to think one of the country's most well-known (and consequently wealthiest) surgeons would disregard the Hippocratic oath in order to make a few grand?

Where is the evidence he did anything wrong?

I'm not suggesting that the Doctor sat on the sidelines hoping to see RG3's knee get torn up, so he could make money. That would be preposterous. By the same token, spare me this ridiculous airy fairy pie in the sky "Hippocratic Oath" nonsense, which we all should know by now takes up little space in the industry known as modern medicine today.

The fact is, there is an obvious conflict of interest involved when you have the surgeon who will ultimately perform whatever surgery might be required, also serving as the authority deciding if the player's best interests would be better served by not playing. On whatever level, consciously or subconsciously, there is an unceremonious disconnect, where the Doctor is not going to be viewing the situation from the same metaphorical eyes of say ... Robert's mother or close loved one.

But don't try to sell me on this notion that the doctor is above self interests, until you show me evidence that the Good Doctor performs these procedures for free. Then, I might be willing to concede the point.

[DaSkinz Baby]

It's also noteworthy that the Doctor probably made about 10 Grand an hour repairing the damage, so what incentive does he actually have for doing what is necessary to prevent such an injury from occurring? His good heart? His integrity? I'd say both of those things are now up for debate.

What evidence do we have to think one of the country's most well-known (and consequently wealthiest) surgeons would disregard the Hippocratic oath in order to make a few grand?

Where is the evidence he did anything wrong?

I'm not suggesting that the Doctor sat on the sidelines hoping to see RG3's knee get torn up, so he could make money. That would be preposterous. By the same token, spare me this ridiculous airy fairy pie in the sky "Hippocratic Oath" nonsense, which we all should know by now takes up little space in the industry known as modern medicine today.

The fact is, there is an obvious conflict of interest involved when you have the surgeon who will ultimately perform whatever surgery might be required, also serving as the authority deciding if the player's best interests would be better served by not playing. On whatever level, consciously or subconsciously, there is an unceremonious disconnect, where the Doctor is not going to be viewing the situation from the same metaphorical eyes of say ... Robert's mother or close loved one.

But don't try to sell me on this notion that the doctor is above self interests, until you show me evidence that the Good Doctor performs these procedures for free. Then, I might be willing to concede the point.

+1